Pericles

‘You don't get away that easily, SJF.’

Interesting word choice … The armchair warmongers’ battle cry: ‘We will never surrender! Hrrrrmph! Pass the port.’

‘The moral right in WWII was undoubtedly with the Allies. Having worked in Germany, I know that even the Germans accept and understand that.’

Because they were defeated. Had Germany won, they would have written the WWII narrative to portray themselves as morally right. Hitler would have blended into history as just another ruthless iron man – the victors’ euphemism for mass murderers. (And we’ve got plenty of those in our own cupboard.)

And while we’re on the subject, I’ve always thought it odd that about 50 million people had to die in order to save Europe from totalitarian fascism, only to have half of it handed over to totalitarian Communism as part of a handshake deal with Stalin. Moral, please??

‘The problem with this is whether your liberation struggle is simply a cover story you tell yourself to justify murdering people whose politics (or religion) you disagree with. At which point your freedom fighter actually turns out to be a terrorist.’

It depends on whether the freedom fighters’ side wins or loses the war of liberation. If it loses they are deemed terrorists. If it wins they are deemed statesmen

Marilyn

After reading your last post (no pun intended), I’m reminded of one scenario from my family …

A cousin of mine who did 6 months service in Vietnam in 1968 received a no-interest war service home loan on his return and completed a degree paid for entirely by the army even though he was by then a civilian. He is now worth over $4 million, but still collects a non-means-tested war service pension. When I once asked him how he justifies still receiving a pension when he is so rich, he replied (without even a pause): ‘I served my country. I deserve it.’

While we as a society love to beat up on dole bludgers, the disabled and single mums, the true extent of wasteful military welfare has been rendered far too sacred to ever become an issue for public debate.

And don’t even get me started on how the military is given billions of dollars for state-of-the-art helicopters and such, when CareFlight has to beg for donations to stay in the air.

"....believe that the wars they fought were justified. Their belief in this is shared by the wider community."

Quite so, but we are still missing the point entirely.

The point is, ask them if they think that war is a good thing. Give them the power to influence the times in which they live, which will they choose? Do you really think that communities want war? Are those old soldiers grateful for the bounty that the wars bestowed upon them and their families?

The last time I checked my watch, it said I was living in the 21st Century, yet we are still lured by this mucky thinking - caused by the lobotomising corruption of misdirected patriotism and smug superiority.

Take Iraq for example:

1. A country made helpless by 10 years of crippling sanctions. 50% of it's population was 16 years old or less (CIA Factbook, 2002). We made war on children.

2. 1.2 million Iraqis now lie dead - millions more displaced. It is admitted that 925 have been bombed and shelled to bits in the Sadr City suburbs in the last month alone. This is genocide.

3. Had the British joined with the Nazis to crush Poland, they could not have been more perfidious than Australia in 2002/3, given the vulnerability of Iraq. Oh, don't spin me any vomit about noble causes!

4. Yet we re-elected the lying, treacherous Howard cabal in 2004. Nuremberg was quietly buried in the outback of a wide, now smelly, brown land.

5. If this is truly a democracy then I am culpable.

- an' I'm mad as hell about it!

SJF,

It seems there are quite a few people out there who wouldn’t mind if we didn’t give our soldiers fighting overseas the best equipment we can afford.

Tell me should they hand back their body armour as well?

Chris,

1) What a lot of absolute rubbish. We didn’t make war on the people of Iraq. We didn’t go there and indiscriminately kill every Iraqi we could find. We didn’t make war on the population so your next point that we made war on children is also stupid.

2) 1.2 million Iraqis are dead because of the Sunni-Shia hatred that has existed for a very long time, and which Saddam capitalized upon. You continue to ignore that the VAST majority of these deaths are caused by violence between the different sects. That won’t go away if we leave. If anything it will get worse.

The Iraqi gov’t itself, (the one elected mostly by Shia), is cracking down on Muqtadr El Sadr and his militia after they broke the ceasefire that had until recently kept the peace in the Shia areas. Do you actually have any figures as to how many are militants. You know the ones who have massacred Iraqi army and police units and bombed coalition personnel?

3) This is the most ridiculous thing you have said yet. Britain told Poland that they would go to their aid if they were attacked. Britain did so. Iraq was under UN sanctions for the 12 years since they invaded Kuwait. Regular battles were fought in the areas of the no fly zones. Iraq had no illusions about coalition intentions. Whether the war was wrong or right you cannot pretend that it was somehow unexpected

4) Everything is a genocide for you soft left morons except actual genocide. You know like the genocide of his own people that Saddam carried out. Like the Sunni attempts to wipe out Shia, and Shia attempts to do the same.

If a Sunni blows up a Shia mosque, that’s not a coalition war crime no matter how much spin you put on it.

This is getting a little close to becoming a civilized exchange, SJF. Worrying.

>>It depends on whether the freedom fighters’ side wins or loses the war of liberation. If it loses they are deemed terrorists. If it wins they are deemed statesmen<<

Approximately true, I guess. But they can sometimes be both. Or neither.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-115407500.html

>>Because they were defeated. Had Germany won, they would have written the WWII narrative to portray themselves as morally right. Hitler would have blended into history as just another ruthless iron man – the victors’ euphemism for mass murderers.<<

That's one theory. However, my own view is that at some point one of the attempts on Hitler's life by the Prussians would have succeeded. They were also a militaristic bunch, but they were a more honourable - read, moral - bunch than Hitler's mob. The way would then have been open for a purge of the Nazi party - the citizens, for sure, were already pretty disillusioned with them by 1945.

Who knows.

>>I’ve always thought it odd that about 50 million people had to die in order to save Europe from totalitarian fascism, only to have half of it handed over to totalitarian Communism as part of a handshake deal with Stalin. Moral, please??<<

To the victor, the spoils.

Marilyn, I'm assuming that you are the direct beneficiary of the post war free or assisted passage immigration scheme. Your parents came here to fill employment opportunities created by the Australian men and women who died in WW2, amongst other things. Is the irony lost on you?

You may be first generation Australian, but you are more a child of your own generation, come of age in the Vietnam War, rider of the “peace” train, swept up in a groundswell protest that eventually brought our troops back home from an unpopular war. I’m not suggesting that you grow-up, but that the global landscape has changed irrevocably, and your ‘60s view, shaped by the unique circumstances of a particular war, and a particular war draft, is outdated. It is time to reframe your politics.

In your desire to protect future generations from going to war - your Australian children, your Australian grand-children – trampling over those who have served their country voluntarily or by draft is unnecessary if you have a valid point to make. We all have a vested interest in the future of this country. But I don’t need to argue this, right? There are many passionate, committed Australians serving their country in the armed forces right now. In a warzone or preparing to go. Now. They need your prayers, not your condescension.

Your personal family story is sad, all the more so because of your personal attack on your grandfather. However, it is not part of the ANZAC narrative. You have dragged him into this to tout your own anti-male, anti-war bias. Patronizing.

Likewise, SJF, your story on your cousin sounds like a case of sour grapes. If you have a problem with government services, then it might be prudent to take it up with the appropriate government department, or your local member, not harangue war vets over their entitlements.

Ginx: chill