I agree with Binoy. In fact this article just got better and better.

The Olympics in my opinion is a celebration of various imperialisms(including Chinese imperialism.) Well said Binoy.

One example from history Binoy didn't mention was 1968 when the IRP Government in Mexico cut down hundreds of demonstrators. The Olympic spirit indeed!

Looking at history and the (mis)use the Nazis made of the Olympics in 1936, I think it is appropriate to say "Stop the fascist flame."

Not much has changed since then in terms of the Olympics.

An excellent article.

I am coming rapidly to the conclusion that Beijing should just fold the tent and tell everyone to go home.

They can afford it - unlike most of the nations in recent history.

The 'West' is under the delusion that China has to deal with it. The reality is that the 'West' has to deal with China.

There will be a minor bleat and then the wombats will snuffle off to another cause they barely understand.

DB

Stop being an apologist for the Beijing dictatorship. I especially dislike your comment that those of us who might have an interest in human rights will move on. Rubbish. Our view extends to all dictatorships. China, Zimbabwe, various regimes in the Middle east (supported by the US), Latin America, South East Asia are examples.

Our goal is freedom for all, including Tibet. Why does freedom threaten dictatorships and their supporters?

If sport is a way for we humans to entertain our natural aggression, it is better to do it through sport than with real warfare. Let the Olympics go on, let's not be killjoys. And when I see a Romanian gymnast doing wonders on the bar, there is art and wonder in amongst all the competition, and a chance to show off the world's cultural variety. The Olympics is not all bad by any means.

It is tempting to allow our genuine passion for issues, like Tibet, to flow over into cynicism and mean spirited gestures.

But I will now go into reverse gear, because the atrocities committed against the Tibetan people are far greater in scale than those committed by Saddam Husein. In the latter case we invaded them. In the case of China the very least we can do is use this small window to display international disquiet and abhorance.

George Bush, the man who invaded Iraq with reckless abandon, said yesterday that the way to deal with China and Tibet is through 'quiet diplomacy'. Well, gosh, nobody supports declaring war on China, but really! The very least that George and Rudd and Sarkozy and the others boys can do is snub the Chinese at the opening ceremony. Call it polite warfare if you like, but at least we make a meaningful statement.

Even the Dalai Lama says the Olympics should go on.

Passy:
- I have seen no signs of Dialectic Blue being an apologist for anyone. All he and a few others on this site have tried to do is inject a little objectivity in the China/Tibet situation.

There is a current thread running in General Discussion in which a few gullible and uninformed people have been taken in by a rather ancient and completely erroneous e.mail. In vain people have pointed these souls towards the facts and evidence which prove the questionable e.mail to be racist propaganda. In the face of irrefutable proof those who believe the e.mail refuse to accept they may have fallen victim to misinformation.

Dialectic Blue and others, including myself, seem to be encountering the same kind of stubborn resistance. None of us are taking sides, or trying to prove we are right and others wrong. But there has been a lot of misinformation and as this snowballs, gathering more and more propaganda along the way, people seem less and less willing to admit that their information may be questionable.

Gecko:
"the atrocities committed against the Tibetan people are far greater in scale than those committed by Saddam Husein." I would very much like to hear how you back up at this astonishing claim. And, naturally, would like to be able to access the sources from which you arrived at this conclusion.

p.s. Would love to see a bunch of people milling around and showing their "abhhorances" in public. Sounds positively wicked.

http://greens.org.au/media/releases/release.php?release_id=939

Half supports this article.

Ironically it is "human rights" that is the discourse of imperialism; of bourgeois British liberal Protestant culture.

Thanks Romany, for the opportunity.

For estimated numbers of Tibetans killed by Chinese invasion go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#Evaluation_by_the_Tibetan_exile_community

Somewhere between $00,000 and 800,000, or 10 percent of the Tibetan population.

The estimated numbers are necessarily hard to pin down, because there is no such thing as a government census. If you want to believe the Chinese version, go ahead.

Then there are those tortured prior to killing and those tens of thousands who had to flee for their lives.

I will not downplay Saddam Hussein's bad deeds, especially against the Kurds. I'm just making an atrocity comparison and then comparing our responses.

I take it your query was genuine, Romany. Or are you simply batting for George Bush?

... the insertion of of seemingly random figures into each section, and constant, unchecked duplication".

Tibet
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It all depends on what you want to see, I suppose.

Wikipedia is of course an open encyclopedia and not a particularly good reference for either the Tibetan cause or the China perspective.

Nevertheless, I will be interested in reading the full entry.

I received a particularly informed response to the first On-Line Article which is posted on the DB Site. It was from Geoff Wade, an Australian, (who) is currently Senior Research Fellow at the Asia Research Institute, National University of Singapore.

Xiaosui is writing a reply. To do justice to Geoff Wade's response and her reply it will be in her first language. It will be posted in Kaixin.

For all I know there are no wombats. That is entirely self selecting.

Yes of course my query was genuine, Gecko. As is my interest in researching both sides of any controversy. But just as you may think a "Chinese version" is not the best source of truth, I would never accept Wikipedia in a search for truth either. Its a valuable reflection of current public opinion, granted. But there is a reason that we do not allow our students to cite it in any academic enquiry, you know.

No, I don't want to believe any particular version: I want to evaluate genuine information from both sides, weigh them up and reach a conclusion which I would happily forego if it was proved to be incorrect.

And George Bush? Am I batting for George Bush? Good grief!

Celebrate rather also then,
Unification in Consciosuness,

of 1 set of a Humanity's War Poppets
sharing tucker from trench to trench
with another 1 set of Humanity's War Poppets

noting:

in the darkness, shineth the light
&
unto light, *lIGHt* is added.

*HOLY, HOLY, HOLY*
Thank f__k the BlakFellas aren't
pommies or fundies or faerie folk

*hEAVEn & eARTh*

are full of yr glory
glory b 2 U
Luv *gODDo* most HigH

& at this time of trial
as thy *Lord Satan* sees fit to confine some of us

may we b sublimated in thy virtues
noting that U did warn us in advance after all,

& having many a shining historical example of those
not shy to giv the "establishment" an alternative view to consider,
we move on.

...Adam...

VOTE 1 *gREEn bROWNy*

I think there is too much misunderstanding of what Tebit actually was and is. Many stories told by western media are unbelievable to me. They are just not logically possible to happen anywhere in the world. But it seems many people are willing to accept that story and believe China is a distinct country and terrible stories should happen there. Their view of China is still locked in 1949. They did not see and did not want to see the major development in China. I don't know if it is capitalism-communism or east-west culture issues. Pointing finger is much easier than get to know the truth.

I just post a link of Tebit history by a western visitor. (Seems anything coming from Chinese government is not trustable here. Can you believe that?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY Tebit issue is a totally different story comparing to US killing Indians. It is a fight between feudalism and communism. It is a fight between slave and their landlord. Now those escaped (used to) wealthy Tebitan wants their priority back

I have been living in US and Australia for the past 8 years. I respect the political system of western country. They are efficient and very few corruption although not perfect. They are only fare and polite to their own citizens. The Chinese government system is not as good as what US have right now. But you should not ignore the progress Chinese government made in the last 30 years. I think human right issue in China should be decided by Chinese people themselves. If you go on the street and ask any Chinese about human rights conditions in China. They will tell you it is better now than 10, 30 years ago. People are freer to talk about politics, to criticize the governor, etc than before. And at last, Chinese people are have much better lives now than anytime ever in Chinese history. People do expect more human rights. But they are expecting a gradual reformation of Chinese government. Pointing fingers and criticizing are not helping at all. Most African countries adopt the government system from western democratic system. Are they having more human rights than Chinese? Are they living better life than Chinese? Western countries spent 200 years to get the current level of civilization. China has gone on the same path for the last 30 years. Why are you so picky on the issues in China, not to say many acquisitions are made up by biased western media? The real effect of what western media are doing is not helping China improving human rights issues, but arise the hatred of western public against Chinese and the hatred of Chinese against west. So if you are really concern about the human rights issues in China, do more research and have a broader view of those issues. Again, point fingers is much easier than get to know the truth, but it is not helping.