rstuart, I agree with you. In my first post, I said the film should not be critiqued as though it were a movie or a documentary, but Ruby would have none of this. I don’t know enough about her to know if she would cynically use the review as a pretext, but on the other hand nothing surprises me any more.

Also, I think the West’s reaction to radical Islam is entirely understandable, and it is only natural (although maybe irrational) for the West to extrapolate to Islam generally, even before we hear what Boaz_David and PaulL have to say about the Muslim scriptures. Of course, once we hear this additional material, the prospects of change within Islam seem slim.

Do you still believe mainstream Islam has “moved on”? In the West, at least? I certainly hope you’re right, but I'm not convinced. I’d like very much to hear more from mainstream Muslims. I don't mean Waleed Ally, he's not mainstream, I'm not sure how many Muslims he speaks for. I’d like to see the extremists openly and obviously and constantly marginalised, but I haven’t seen it yet.

Pax,

Wobbles,

And how about I say it even more slowly. Don’t ... send ... me ...links ... to ... left ... wing ... polemics. Bert Sacks article was absolute, unadulterated propaganda. The Global policy forum is also an advocacy group. Indeed in the first article, statistics which were relied upon by the author were produced by extrapolating data. This is a highly suspect practice and can be manipulated in whatever manner you wish to produce the results you want.

How seriously would you take a report that was published by a right wing think tank like the National Civic Council?

“ >> As well as chlorine I can show you where baby milk powder, morphine and even lead pencils were banned under these conditions ”

That is what I want to see. Not an assessment by a soft lefty with an axe to grind. I understand the concept of dual use. Show me something authoritative if you have it. I am beginning to suspect you don’t.

What I know about the UN is that it is largely a waste of space as it is currently formulated. The UN is pervasively anti-American and anti-Israeli. The very fact that undemocratic nations get a vote in the supposed pinnacle of democracy makes the UN a farce.

The recent choice of an anti-Israeli American Jew, Richard Falk, to the post of UN advisor on the Middle East had nothing to do with his experience and everything to do.with his political orthodoxy. See, http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23557033-21147,00.html

Hmm... seems all my posts to this thread are being censored....

now that would be a bit sad.

cheers.

B_D, Censored, are you serious? That would be worse than sad.

If the administrators are doing it, surely they would get in touch with you and explain. Surely?

I've encountered a glitch lately, where some of my posts only get up on a second attempt.

Hope you can sort it out.

Pax,

Hope it's a false alarm, Boaz.

>>Hmm... seems all my posts to this thread are being censored....

now that would be a bit sad.<<

More than sad.

Unless you are being abusive, which would be out of character.

Let us know what you find out, won't you.

goodtheif, 'Do you still believe mainstream Islam has “moved on”?'

Yes, I believe it is moving on. By "moving on" I mean withdrawing from the political arena. This is happening rapidly right now in Iran Indonesia. I think that Australia's ditching of our Mufti was also a great example of this.

What allows this "moving on" to happen is the development of a stable western style political system. Where there isn't one, such as in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan the old ways still prevail. But given the opportunity, Islam, just like Christianity, de-fangs itself and gets out of the political arena. The wars and mayhem then become the responsibility of the politicians.

An excellent example of this is the US, where we had prominent Christian leaders behaving just like a radical Imam. Pat Robertson's cheer leading the Iraq invasion and sub-sequent torture of prisoners comes to mind. Yet we don't blame the extreme Christians for actions of the US's political leaders. We know and understand that its the responsibility of the political leaders alone. Likewise we don't blame Islam for Turkey's recent attack on the Kurds, despite the fact the Turkey's ruling class is mostly Muslim.

Finally, this means you WON'T hear prominent Muslims condemn the actions of the radicals. This is not because they don't speak out. Its because they see the handling of this sort of terrorism as part of the political arena. And they when they speak, they don't get up and say "I am a Muslim, and I condemn this". They say "I am an proud Iranian, and these guys are criminals". Or, in the case of the US, they aren't speaking up as Christians, condemning other Christians. They stand up as US citizens, and condemn the actions of their politicians.