As an American who happens to be a lover and admirer of almost all things traditionally "Australian", I hope that most Australians will never be naive enough to believe in the utter nonsense that "Fundamentalist" Islam is a "religion of equality and tolerance." I have a degree in Mediterranean history, as well as a special interest in the legacy of the Ottoman Empire and the Muslim invasions of India. I have spoken to many Muslims in many countries, read the Quran in its entirety . . . more than once . . . something I know many Muslims have not done, and spent a significant portion of my 57 years studying the history of Islamic sects, from both Muslim and non-Muslim sources. From my own experiences, I can tell you that those who believe in, and interpret, the Quran in a literal fashion simply cannot be trusted . . . at least in a collective sense. Their leaders and clerics are liars and con artists. The Quran itself DICTATES a literal interpretation. And, by the Quran's own definition, any Muslim who does not believe in a literal interpretation of the Quran or its "divine" origin, "uncreated" by man, is not a "true" Muslim. They are "heretics".
As I write this, I have a translation of the Quran by the renowned Iraqi scholar, N.J. Dawood. In the very beginning . . . after, "In the name of God the Compassionate, etc.", we find, "This Book is not to be doubted." There is no equivocation, no room for analytical disputation. Hypersensitive Muslims will ALWAYS accuse the critics of the Quran of taking passages "out of context" . . . regardless of the academic qualifications of the particular critic.
Do not tolerate that which should not be tolerated by any civilized democratic people. Islam is NOT "just another" monotheistic faith, "like" Christianity or Judaism. It is starkly different. Do not make the mistake that Europe is making. Please! Do not allow the cancer of Muslim immigration to grow in your beautiful country. These people really do contain a "fifth column."

Dear Ruby.

HAD you said “God 'permitted' Israelite men to MARRY captive slave girls after a month of mourning” I would not have objected. (again.. because it is true)

BUT.. you didn't say that. You said the following:

You said God 'COMMANDED' Israelites to murder and RAPE. You said this command was 'frequently' given. (reality was not murder but execute)
The word..even in your quote, is MARRIAGE with all the associated privileges and responsibilities.

After a month of mourning, a person has the presence of mind to realize that her future is only in one direction. She has mourned, done her sums..and knows.. “apart from my master and this people, I have, and am nothing.”

She adjusts to this and it is more believable that she would willingly (begrudgingly) marry the man by this time.

Islamic traditions expect us to believe that Saffiya “willingly” married Mohammad and had sex with him 3 days after he slaughtered her husband.. this after he has already killed her father previously.

You should note this very carefully, in contrast to the Islamic practice by Soldiers who DID take advantage of female captives 'on the battle field'.

I would say 'rape' because these women have just been traumatized, families killed, by what stretch of imagination can we believe they would willingly give their bodies to the killers of their families immediately? I suggest that the level of trauma would be similar to a full force punch in the face by a man who then says “I want sex”! Of course..she will say “no way.. get lost you loser” err...'yeah'.
Sources:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/029.mmt.html#029.29.32.95
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/093.sbt.html#009.093.506
Surah 23:5-6
Surah 33:52
Mohammad approved full intercourse by his soldiers on the women of the Mustaliq tribe after the battle. He only dissapproved of coitus interuptus, not full intercourse, justifying it by saying
“No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."

Ruby, thanks again. I wonder if we needn’t agree about the virtues or dangers of Islam itself (its scriptures, say) but just see if we can agree about what to do?

For example, we might agree that we should be alert to the dangers but nonetheless willing to engage in dialogue. Dialogue doesn’t have to be premised on total trust, does it? I suspect that several of us here on OLO who, shall we say, have reservations about Islam would still be prepared to be gracious and communicative with Muslim people we come across. Some of us might even agree with you by promoting dialogue.

However, we might not agree with your diagnosis/analysis of the situation. For example, it now seems to me that Islam is designed to function as a theocracy. Sharia is so comprehensive, there’s no other environment that can accommodate it. For “theocracy”, read “conquest”, whether by overt trauma or stealth. They might even “dialogue” their way to conquest, since there are always plenty of naïve liberals prepared to sit across the table from someone who looks exotic.

Still, even with this, dialogue is a good idea. Talking just has to be better than not talking. Non-Muslims must simply ensure that their brain is entirely engaged throughout the exercise.

Perhaps your next article would recommend dialogue regardless of one’s judgement about Islam? For consideration.

Excuse the “we” please, everyone, I’m really not pretending to be a spokesperson, but just surmising.

Pax,

Sonofeire,

With your background and knowledge why not write a piece for this journal.

I share your concerns BTW.

This is one the best and most open countries on earth,currently populated by warm and caring people.It is the only continental mass that has no land boundaries with anyone else, and a unitary system of government, and a single language --well sort of.

It should be haven for all sensible people,who just want to live their lives to the fullest, and not have their standards of living corrupted by people who have other agendas and /or just dont fit anyway.

But I am afraid our politicians and other elites are slowly screwing it up, with the lax immigration policies towards Islamists, together the manipulation of the refugee mechanisms by the arab/muslim controlled UNHCR.

That should stir things up.

It IS interesting, Ruby, that when it is put to you that the context of the Qu’ranic passages in the film is consistent with Muslim scholarship and interpretation, you continue to ignore the reality of Islam.

Now, you ignore the very helpful colour put forward by camo. Insisting on context for Fitna, yet persisting in not affording the same luxury for the Bible.

Below, I have enlisted the help of Dr. Thomas L. Constable’s “Notes on Deuteronomy” (summarized below), to show how to read the passages that you have used to demonstrate (falsley) Christian reliance on the OT to justify blood-letting:

Chapter 7 is a logical development of what Moses said in chapters 5 & 6 (the Commandments). God had called on His people to acknowledge that He is the only true God and to be completely loyal to Him. What follows is a warning to the Israelites not to forget what God has done for them.

7:1-10

Moses mentioned seven nations that resided in Canaan (v.1), but as many as 10 appear in other passages (Gen 15:19-22; Exod. 34:11; Num. 13:28-29; Judg. 3:5). Perhaps Moses named seven here for rhetorical purposes, seven being a number that indicates completion or fullness. One reason for the total extermination of these idolaters was their evil effect their corrupt worship would have on the Israelites and their relationship with Yahweh (v.4). They deserved to die for their sins (9:4-5) and for their persistent hatred of God (v.10; cf. Gen. 9:25-26; 10:15-18; Exod. 23:23).

Note the *divine intervention* required to achieve the victory of the Israelites over their enemies, they were out-numbered, out-sized and lacked confidence.

Jews and Christians are not commanded to annihilate our enemies. Such devastating destruction is in God’s hands, a judgement that Christian and Jews also fall under if they do no remain faithful to the commandments.

In particular,

“You shall have no other gods before me” (Deut 5: 7)

“You shall not make for yourself an idol…You shall not bow
down to them or worship them;” (Deut 5: 8-9)

...to be continued

Rache,

I just can’t let you get away with the absolute rubbish, in fact straight out lies, you have posted about the sanctions regime. Just about every single thing you said is flat out wrong.

For starters, the figure you claim for excess deaths is hotly disputed.

"Sanctions and Childhood Mortality in Iraq," a May 2000 article by Mohamed Ali and Iqbal Shah in The Lancet, conducted a comparative analysis of the more than two dozen major studies that have analyzed malnutrition and mortality figures in Iraq during the previous decade. It estimated the most likely number of excess deaths among children under five years of age from 1990 through March 1998 to be 227,000.

UN Resolution 712 (1991) confirmed that Iraq could sell up to $1.6 billion US in oil to fund an Oil For Food program. By 1996 this figure was $10.4 billion per year, by 1999 it removed the ceiling altogether. The Government of Iraq procured food and basic medical supplies in bulk and was responsible for their distribution in the 15 central and southern governorates, and to UN warehouses in the northern cities of Kirkuk and Mosul.

A study of childhood mortality in Iraq concluded that in southern and central Iraq, infant mortality rate between 1994 and 1999 had risen to 108 per 1,000 . Child mortality rate also drastically inclined from 56 to 131 per 1,000. But in the autonomous northern region during the same period, infant mortality declined from 64 to 59 per 1000 and under-5 mortality fell from 80 to 72 per 1000.

The differential between child mortality rates in northern Iraq, where the UN managed the relief program, and in the south-center, where Saddam Hussein was in charge, says a great deal about relative responsibility for the crisis.

Medicines can’t be made into WMD’s and they were not banned. However precursor chemicals which may be used to manufacture medicines but could also manufacture WMD’s were banned. The medicines themselves were never banned.

I’d suggest that you show us where you got your ridiculous information.

referenced in this post.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011203/cortright
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions