I suppose I may as well start the comments.

On-Line would be very dull if there was not a diversity of opinions.

I, as Graeme Mills, not DB, tried to give you the view from the woman/man on the street in China in my Article.

I suggested a way forward based on respect. In case you did not notice I took nothing off the table, except independence for Tibet. I believe that the Dalai Lama has also taken that off the table. So, in effect I took nothing off the table.

I suppose cold war rhetoric and insults is a way to engage the Chinese. I wish you every success. I do not dispute your information, I just do not see that it is worth raking over old coals.

I have heard a different story from Tibetans on the ground, but did not include it since it would not be believed.

I have to say, that my first response was, ‘god’damm I miss the cold war.’

Dialectic Blue,

You are a far better person than I am, man. I read this mass of ancient history, inflammatory rhetoric, misinformation and quotes which give no indication of whether they came from the author's postman back in 1950 or from a bipartisan website, and experienced the actual feeling of having my breath taken away.

This retired person who had "experience" (so did anyone who lived in those times) of the cold war has every right, of course to voice his opinion. But what on earth prompted him to do so? A desire for peace? For war mongering? The need to be seen to be in the know now he is no longer involved?

Your reasoned, much more objective article which seeks to present another position for people to ponder, which aims to dampen down inflamed rhetoric and invites readers to consider the situation from a different perspective is at least more conducive towards a search for understanding of the situation.

And how the hell did you manage to bite your tongue and not respond to the militaristic garbage which has absolutely nothing to substantiate it apparently other than this author's ancient, conditioned bias? (Perhaps your wife could inform him that the Chinese symbol for "ambulance" on the particular "military" vehicle which was photographed and published in so many newspapers can be verified in any Chinese-English dictionary?)

Graeme
Your feelings and ties to China are appreciated, but as an academic, fact and well researched history cannot be ignored. Selective evidence and unsupported hearsay is unacceptable.

A true perspective of events in Tibet or other regions of claimed human rights abuse is critical. Emotion and goodwill needs to be balanced against hard fact. Only then can world democracies assess the extent of any abuse and hopefully impose pressure to achieve change if required.

Without balance, that effort is not only futile, it can exacerbate the abuse.

You will be familiar from your knowledge of modern Chinese history of the CCP sponsored Han Chinese transmigrations and ensuing ethnic dilution strategies in Inner Mongolia, Amdo, what is now the TAR, Xinjiang and Aksai Chin.

Occupation of Amdo was in preparation for the invasion and occupation of Tsang-U; and Kham following which China excised Tibet into part of Xinjiang, Gansu, Sichuan and Yunnan. Qinghai and the TAR became new Chinese territories

China pre-empts its mass migration policies with major military, road, airfield and railway projects, all common to Inner Mongolia, Amdo, Xinjiang and Tibet. Rapid population dilutions are readily traceable before and after development and industrialisation.

China's state controlled media itself inadvertently signals these events and applies the political spin during and after the event. These patterns have been followed from 1950 up to today.

China's massive censorship apparatus covering electronic and print media is becoming less and less effective as more and more people move into and around China despite the many restrictions. There are many cells in China and Tibet receiving accurate up to date foreign input in various forms. Accurate on the ground data that can be confirmed by satellite imaging is coming out. China is not immune to eavesdropping.

As an academic you understand the need for balance, requiring argument both for and against. If the stories you have heard from Tibetans can be substantiated, they should be on the table for peer review and to support the alternative view.

Free speech and human rights is critical to our ability to improve this world.

Arthur Thomas

Thank you for responding, Arthur. The on-line editors certainly achieved an interesting contrast with our two articles. I sent an email to the editor as follows:

‘Yes, I smiled to myself when I read the Article (Who is to blame …). Ms S Machiavelli obviously had a 'cunning plan' (I assume you watched 'Black-Adder).’

As I said, I did not dispute your information (not did I concede its accuracy). That is for another forum. I suspect there is a PHD thesis in it somewhere.

What I did call for is similar to what you said, open minds on the subject. I am certainly not dismissing human rights as an issue. Though, I suspect I would diss-agree on how it applies in respect to Tibet and China.

My main point was that to have dialogue you needed someone on the other side of the table. My article suggested a way of achieving that. Naive or not is up to the readers of this esteemed 'rag' to decide.

Graeme

Romany
Your comments suggest you may have a problem in the transition from the past to the future.

As for your reference to ancient history and dated information, then if you consider the last ten years and up to the end of March 2008 as ancient history then I bow to your intellect.

I was interested in reading your reference "mass of ancient history, inflammatory rhetoric, misinformation and quotes which give no indication of whether they came from." Your confidence in making such claims suggests that your research has positively confirmed your assumptions. I am sure that it would enlighten Online Opinion subscribers if you would table that research and demand a retraction. As for the inflammatory rhetoric you mention, the only such reference I can find is in italics as quotations from the mentioned Chinese officials. The other italic text was from respected international media during interviews with both Chinese and Tibetan residents in Tibet.

All of these quotes are a matter of public record in both Chinese state and international media.

An old saying "Digging for fact, far better exercise than jumping to uninformed conclusion."

Perhaps more exercise in serious research than uninformed off the cuff emotion Romany?

Arthur T

Romany

Thanks, I never did learn when to stop and let sleeping dogs lie.