Sonofeire: "CJ Morgan ...So, tell us something we don't already know!"

I have challenged CJ Morgan, (in "Master of Islamist doublespeak" thread) to tell us:

IN HIS OWN WORDS, how exactly Western freedom and democracy can practically and successfully fits in an Islamic Society like Saudi Arabia.

In returning to the subject at hand (perhaps with equal sleight). If it is 'writings' we are to compare, it should be said, "as a philologian a man sees behind the "holy books," and as a physician he sees behind the physiological degeneration of the typical Christian. The physician says "incurable"; the philologian says "fraud."... " - Nietzsche. So, let us perhaps regard what might typify a Muslim - "God forgiveth him that repenteth" - or in plain English, him that submitteth to the mullah or the priest.

In considering Paul - his home "was at the centre of the Stoical enlightenment, when he converts an hallucination into a proof of the resurrection of the Savior, or even to believe his tale that he suffered from this hallucination himself--this would be a genuine niaiserie in a psychologist" - F.N.

And again, where there is this ' positive genius for conjuring up a delusion of personal "holiness" unmatched anywhere else, either in books or by men; this elevation of fraud in word and attitude to the level of an art - all this is not an accident due to the chance talents of an individual, or to any violation of nature. The thing responsible is race. The whole of Judaism appears in Christianity as the art of concocting holy lies, and there, after many centuries of earnest Jewish training and hard practice of Jewish technique, the business comes to the stage of mastery...' - will Islam now, go to beyond this?

I'm not so harsh as Nietzsche but he makes a point - the 'priest' knows of only one great danger: that is science - the sound comprehension of cause and effect.

I can certainly enjoin with Nietzsche when he says, "what the Gospels abolished was the Judaism in the concepts of "sin," "forgiveness of sin," "faith," "salvation through faith" - the whole ecclesiastical dogma of the Jews was denied by the "glad tidings."

BOAZ,

Historically, before Marcion published the first truly Christian Bible (AD 116), Christianity already had been divided into two groups. In Paul's words, there were the "Judaizers" and there were the Pneumatics (the "Spiritual"). The Judaizers were more allied with Peter and James while the Pneumatics upheld Paul's Gospel of freedom.

Afterwards , there were four great divisions in Christianity - the Gnostics, the Catholics, the Judeo-Christians and the Marcionites.

Biblically - from Acts, it would appear that there was friction between Paul and the leaders of the 'Jerusalem Church'- the surviving companions of Jesus - but this friction was indeed apparently resolved. Remember that Acts was written by a supporter of Paul – apparently the same author of “Luke”.
The split that took place between Paul and the Jerusalem Church is minimized in Acts, which actually contrasts with Paul's own account in Galatians 2.
However, from some of Paul's letters, particularly Galatians, it seems that the friction was more serious than indicated in Acts, which thus appears to be partly a propaganda exercise, intended to portray unity in the early Church.

It was when Peter visited him in Antioch and became aware of the full extent of Paul's views that a serious rift began between Pauline and Jewish Christianity.

In Jerusalem (c.55), Paul was accused by James of teaching Jews "to turn their backs on Moses" (Acts 21:21). Again, however, Paul evaded the charge by concealing his views, and he agreed to undergo a test of his own observance of the Torah.

His deception, however, was detected by a group of "Asian Jews" (probably Jewish Christians) who were aware of his real teaching. A stormy protest ensued in which Paul feared for his life and was rescued by the Roman police, to whom he declared for his protection that he was a Roman citizen.

This surprising announcement was the end of Paul's association with the Jerusalem Church, to whom the Romans were the chief enemy.

The common ground is that all religions are influenced by political and personal ambition - and used to further both, as circumstances permit.

Anyone who knows the history of the region, Roman politics and practice, indeed the character of Pilate, evidenced from other sources, would see flaws in Marks writing of the Jesus’ trial. Mark’s reports of the interaction between Pilate, a Roman Governor, backed by massive military might, the native magistrates and the mob are not credible.

The chief priests, fulfilling their duty as required by law, handed over one of their own nationals, Jesus, on the charge of sedition. If Pilate had doubted the evidence he would have called for a trial at his HQ in Caesarea, providing time for further investigation; as Claudius Lysias did with Paul. In stating that Pilate gave the mob the choice, Mark presents him as an incompetent fool - which he wasn’t. There is no evidence of any custom of releasing a prisoner at Passover; indeed why should a Roman Governor do so? This was not a practice in traditional Judaism.

Mark presents a strong animus between the Pauline and the Jerusalem gorups; indeed gives the family of Jesus an extraordinarly bad press.

The crucifiction of Jesus appears to have been an embarrassment to early Christians. Amongst the miriad of Christian images, the first one of the Crucifiction is found as late at the 4/5th century.

Pericles raised correct points.

There are masses of documented scientific research into post-bereavement hallucinations and illusions - a not uncommon experience. Many of these papers are online.

Also, we only have to look at the last few years to see evidence of mass hysteria - those praying to a fence post when an apparition of the Virgin Mary appears at certain time of day; people prostrating themselves before salt damp marks on a church wall. Adding to the excitement in the same town, a woman identified a vision of Princess Di on the tiles of her front verandah - thus, providing ‘pilgrims’ with two visions for the price of one trip. Undoubtedly those who benefited most were local shop-keepers, and stall-sellers of religious trinkets.

cont ...

Bishop John S. Spong:
http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/vox21096.html

“The Supernatural Being that we have traditionally called God has increasingly been rendered impotent by the explosion in human knowledge over the last five hundred years...

States:

In this world of scholarly dialogue God has not been spoken of as an external Supernatural Being who periodically invades the world in decades.”

Regards:

“the most pressing theological issue of this generation ...to envision God in some way other than in the theistic categories of the traditional religious past ...

“Jesus was identified in some sense as the incarnation of this theistic God... was portrayed as a sacrifice offered to this God to bring an end to human estrangement from the Creator. ...

In a post-Darwinian world, where creation is not finished, but is even now ongoing and ever-expanding, the idea of a fall from a perfect world into sin and estrangement is nonsensical. ... The idea that somehow the very nature of the heavenly God required the death of Jesus as a ransom to be paid for our sins is ludicrous ...”

Danielle

Excellent work.

The time for an anthropomorphic god was over long ago.

Time to step forward into an era marked by learning and wisdom, not straitjacketed by petty deities and those who gain from such limited notions.