The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > 220 years of saving the children > Comments

220 years of saving the children : Comments

By John Tomlinson, published 20/2/2008

Book review: 'Coercive reconciliation' is an outstanding book which deserves to be read by anyone who has an interest in non-Indigenous-Aboriginal relations.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. All
'Cargo, Patronage Systems and Denial' - perhaps that should be the title of the second edition, if there is ever one.
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 8:47:40 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
John Tomlinson: "So, though you might never, never go, if you really want to know, then cough-up your $27.50 - this book is worth owning."

On the basis of this review, I think I will. Thanks John.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:00:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“… it is a plea for far more assistance to be provided in the form of improved health, community and police services, decent jobs, better housing and revitalised economic development.”

This is no alternative to direct intervention in the affairs of people who have proved over the last 220 years that they are incapable of solving their problems in isolation. Providing modern services where it is not practical to do so; jobs where there are no jobs and no need for jobs, is just asking for the same situation to continue, enabling nasty events in isolated communities to continue unseen.

Tomlinson might feel smart, sneering at the “real economy”, but people living in isolated blacks’ camps are outside not only the real economy; they are also outside reality.
Wild life rangers? A lot of job opportunities there! And there isn’t much evidence of health care amongst the disease, addictions and squalor.

Tough love is a clique. But it is appropriate for aboriginal Australians. Forget the last 220 years. Show them (all of them, not just a few) what to do, and let them get on with it just like the rest of us. It’s not going to happen in isolated tracts of the country.

This book is worth owing, Mr. Tomlison? From your description it’s not worth the paper it is written on. The same old same old same old, harping on the past and advocating same failed prescriptions
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 10:41:55 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It is not a surprise that it is all Howard's fault.
The communities in Queensland, Western Australia are such perfect places and should be emulated by the Federal Government in their efforts in the Northern Territory.
It seems that this collection of articles is an explanation of how it was not the fault of those responsible for the continuing failure to look after the indigenous communities.
The Indigenous Leadership group have had decades to improve the lot of those they have been responsible for, ever since the establishment of ATSIC back in the 80's.
They should hang their collective heads in shame at their failure to protect their young and defenseless.
Posted by Little Brother, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 12:51:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Leigh a typical moronic view from your usual stable of drivel, where would you want them to go next door to you maybe?

Millions of dollars a year of mining and other resources are stolen from these communities each year without any compensation from the government and from the states. So if both the mining companies and the Federal governmants were to comply with the international law on mining Indigenous land as they do elswhere on the planet. We might finally see a difference in those people's lives and they could be living like kings and we poor stiffs in the city would be looking for a hand out from them instead of the current situation.
Posted by Yindin, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 1:29:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yindin,
Perhaps you should read Leigh's post again, he makes some reasonable comments.

I will read this book. I won't buy it but get it through my library. I am not impressed with some of those that had input into it. I hope it proposaes some practical and realistic alternatives to intervention. I know human nature and many will not want to give up the grog, gambling and other things they waste money on. If anything is to work, there has to be a change in present aboriginal culture.
I am mainly interested in the kids as the adults should be able to work it out for themselves.

It will be interesting to see the reports that come out from where intervention has taken place. I expect to see a dramitic improvement in the kids health, their schooling and nutrition. Its the kids we have to be concerned about.

When I saw all those former PMs siting up there when the sorry speech was made, I thought you bl###y hypocritics! You introduced 'sit down money' and let the whole situation get worse as time went on.

You notice they did not say sorry for their lack of action.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 7:30:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yindin,
There is a place called Windale, just south of Newcastle,NSW where the child abuse was as high as any. It took them 8 years but now the child abuse is one of the lowest.

That is not just commendable, it is remarkable.

An article was posted here, about Windale, on OLO about the time debate was on about the NT intervention. There was about 120 post about that, but no one wanted to know about how Windale acheived their brilliant result.

I deduced from this that most did not care about the kids at all but was only interested in a political agenda.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:45:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Having lived in the territory for a while I know that this is much more complex than most realise.
There *are* groups of aboriginal people who have descended into parasitical victimhood: alcohol, dispair and violence. There are actual cases of housing being dismantled for firewood, 4WDs swapped for slabs of beer, etc. In short, there is a lot of assistance wasted and a lot of wasted people.
These folks are unable to drag themselves out of this scenario because there is no support from trustworthy sources (no resources, traditions lost), and the white-mans "support" comes with undesirable, if not unacheivable requirements. Blaming them is all too common, because it isn't *this* generations fault. (If it isn't "us" then it must be "them" under the "someone to blame" model of politics)
The point is that change must be done using more carrot than stick. Humans (most anyway) will not allow themselves to be bullied by the "enemy". The sad cases that folks like Leigh use to justify a "they need to get their bloody act together" are, sadly, cases that will take more than one generation to fix. Others are genuinely trying, and will start to do well if the governments apology is more than warm-fuzzies. Fact is, if you look only at the sad cases racially, then *any* race (or group for that matter) will be undeserving of help and compassion.
The last thing we need is more stick, kind of like flogging a dying horse, but much more cruel.
Posted by Ozandy, Thursday, 21 February 2008 8:28:40 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Banjo I did read Leigh ( pardon I thought Leigh a women ) statement and he/she has missed the point as you have, unlike both of you I visit these communities quite regularly to visit relatives. We had work for the dole program that made these people work and kept them out of trouble. Then the do gooders came along and stopped it because I suspect that they feared white bludgers in the cities, might have to work for it as well and we can't have that apply to white bludgers its just not cricket.

My point was that the Inuit have thrived on mining money and have schools hospitals etc and unfortunatly still have bludgers, but they have acess to jobs and profits from their resources whereas Aboriginal people still don't in violation of internation law.

I have no issue with your comments on Labor which is why I have always voted Liberal, labor states like QLD,NSW,WA have all had premiers that have had a hand in the deaths by neglect of Indigenous people. Peter Beattie and his apprentice Ann Bligh had overseen some of the most outrageous violations of international human rights ( protection of children and property rights) law against Indigenous people in the country.

So I rejoiced when John sent in the troops and still remain a proud of our efforts as a party
Posted by Yindin, Thursday, 21 February 2008 11:14:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Millions of dollars a year of mining and other resources are stolen from these communities each year without any compensation from the government and from the states.
Yindin,
There's that word again. Stolen ! Yes, much of the wealth in Australia comes from the natural resources over which the indigenous inhabitants have walked for apparently 50,000 years.
That same wealth did not find it's way from the ground into the Banks by osmosis. It was recovered by years & years of hard work, ingenuity & by technology brought to this country. Many, many indigenous have received compensation for the mining of the lands they frequented for so long. land which was harsh even by indigenous standards. It was not a Nirvana as so many attempt to portray it. Indigenous occupants suffered much from this & this has now been officially recognised. In stating this I also have to point out that many indigenous Australians have received considerable compensation. In fact many received more than most of the workers who made this wealth possible. In my view, opportunistic could pass but Stolen is out of context on this one.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 21 February 2008 9:40:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
John Tomlinson provides us with an insightful review of a book that is worth more than all the rhetoric coming from Canberra and all the glib cliche's and brain dead reasons that spew out from the mouths of black and white supporters of the NT intervention.

But despite this contribtion, the political neaderthals that drag their knuckles from post to post in this forum insist on putting up more BS, BS that they appear to believe and cherish.

Its no wonder very few posters here are from the thousands of learned people who work for the universities that sponsor this website.

It would simply be embarrassing for these to engage in debate with the likes of Leigh and other nutters here, a waste of time and effort.

I wish it was not like this, but that's exactly how it is.

What a shame
Posted by Rainier, Thursday, 21 February 2008 10:19:19 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"all the glib cliche's and brain dead reasons that spew out from the mouths of black and white supporters of the NT intervention."

Thanks Rainier. You're not very interested in debate it seems, but just the invective that you rail against.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Thursday, 21 February 2008 10:51:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Its no wonder very few posters here are from the thousands of learned people who work for the universities that sponsor this website.
Rainier,
Are you referring to those learned people whose "expertise" has always been relied upon by all the other experts when making policy & have proven such a failure. Rainier, there will be a time when the inadequacy of many (not all) learned people will be the subject of threads like these. judges are learned people, as are psychologists, bureaucrats & engineers. I mean these are the people who are in charge of a lot of the mess that you yourself criticizes more than anyone here.
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 February 2008 6:39:00 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ranier,

“It would simply be embarrassing for these to engage in debate with the likes of Leigh and other nutters here, a waste of time and effort", you grunted in your charming manner.

Of course “these” would be too embarrassed to “engage in debate” with the me and others whom you call nutters. You would know all about nutters with your raving and ranting.

They – and you - should be very, very embarrassed ,trying to put over the bullswool they and you try to put over us.

The problem is that you don’t have the brains to realise that everything you spout is bullswool. And your academic mates think we non-academics are too silly to be a wake up to their bullswool. Formal education doesn’t stop people from being absolute idiots, and you and many of the academics you slaver to are well up in the top 10 list of idiots on OLO.

It’s a good thing for others of your race that you are just another embittered, white-hating loony and not a public figure spouting your twisted rubbish out in the open. They have enough problems without a dead weight like you.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 22 February 2008 2:22:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Liegh,

You can be an academic and an intellectual, but an academic is not necessarily an intellectual.

You are neither!

In fact, I'm not sure there is a science that could classify you.

Zoology?
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 22 February 2008 3:19:00 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
You can be an academic and an intellectual, but an academic is not necessarily an intellectual.
Rainier,
FYI, Intellectuals are largely ineffectuals. Academics are not necessarily intellectual ? Makes them pretty useless eh !
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 February 2008 10:16:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yindin,
I thought in your first post you were against the NT intervention and was surprized to see in your next post that you actually support the intervention.

I am supporting the intervention at this stage as policies over many years have been failures.It will be interesting to see when reports come out re the intervention. I note those against it have not proposed any alternate policy that is likely to succeed. To succeed it will mean that many aboriginals will have to change their habits and give up the grog, etc. If I know people they won't want to do that. The health, safety and education of the kids must take precedence.

Also I was critisising the former PMs, that were at the 'sorry' speech, because of their hypocracy and one of them was a Liberal. He was the same as the others and just as culpable for letting the situation worsen. If the need for an apology was so obvious, why did they not do it 15-20 years ago.

I think many opposing the intervention were doing so on political grounds and could not care less about the welfare of the kids.

I will read the book this article promotes, but I do not expect to see anything positive that will help the current situation. I take far more heart from the successes at Windale
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 23 February 2008 8:32:46 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Zoology, eh Ranier. Is that the best you can do?

You people are still waffling about thousands of years of history and myths. I would have thought you were still closer to the apes than I am.

Your are obviously getting desperate now, and I feel obliged to save you from making anymore ignorant outbursts by ignoring your ridiculous and tiresome raving, head banging and posing.
Posted by Leigh, Saturday, 23 February 2008 9:51:15 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Leigh, I stand corrected, I meant Parasitiology.

Actually I would go a little further and suggest your specie is from the Dipylidium Coccidia genus. I make this assertion simply on observing your behaviour here on OLO.

That you are inhabiting a human body is just another one of those unexplained mysteries of creation science.

Finally, thanks for ignoring me with such passion!
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 23 February 2008 12:49:53 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
individual,
Well, all I can assume is that the people who taught you at school must have had lots of patience. Despite this, it’s obvious their best efforts were "ineffectual". Please don't blame them, they tried. We can’t perform miracles.
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 23 February 2008 6:47:55 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
haha ! Rainier, you're just plain incapable of seeing reality. I'm sorry to say that but i suppose you can always blame your tutors for failing to educate you. I have had only the most basic of education but you have obviously been to uni & that's evident in your mentality. Why on earth did you waste yours & your tutors time when this is all you can produce on these threads.
You're obviously a very selfish & jealous person & I know that most indigenous Australians would not supprt your views.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 23 February 2008 7:07:12 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Individual effort of futility, given that I know thousands more indigenous people than you do I would say you are outgunned on that scale of reason.

That i would also know more 'white' Australians than you [and who would agree with me] is more indicative of how shallow your puerile argument is.

And tell me, why is it that many people who have not had a uni education are by far much more intellectually adept that you?

Keep trying; have some self belief - you'll get there, one day.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 24 February 2008 7:40:09 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Please can you mob get over it? or find a private forum to vent your spleen on each other? this is not what OLO is for. It is not a forum for comemntators to pursue vendettas against each other. It is meant to be a place where we critique the work of the published authors, and debate the issues raised in them, not issues we have with each other.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Sunday, 24 February 2008 8:28:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dan Fitzpatrick
you're right, I let myself get worked up for a mutt, i.e. for nothing. end of this nonsense ! cheers
Posted by individual, Monday, 25 February 2008 8:38:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Leigh,
can you clarify what you mean by 'tough love'? You stated "Tough love is a clique. But it is appropriate for aboriginal Australians."

I always understood the term 'Tough Love" to be a violent form of assumed ownership. When a bloke gives a woman a bit of tough love- which actually means that physical violence was used to obtain sexual intercourse. I understand it to be aggravated physical violence including Rape, usually within a relationship.

Or sometimes 'Tough love' is just a physical beating to make another person love the one beating them.

I don't think your kind of love is what is needed at all.
Posted by Aka, Monday, 25 February 2008 4:55:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Good point Aka.

I also think that Leigh should clarify what he means by "clique" ;)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 25 February 2008 6:59:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy