Some folks have no problem with cruelty to animals.
The bible tells them that we were put here to have "dominion" over all the other plants and animals.
Shame is, the folks that take this stuff seriously are also tricked into believing it is OK to domesticate the most valuable animal: humans.
Once domesticated (dominion established), then any treatment is justified.
Sadly, climate change and other human activities will kill far more animals (and humans) than guns or traps. Nature would have done it sooner or later anyway (dino-killers crop up every few million years, so we haven't got forever to get into space), but it is a bit sad to see such a smart species crap it's own nest to pieces so quickly.

For serious Star Trek fans like myself I can't help but compare the characters in the series in which the species the "Borg" travel through space in search of new land and technology to "assimilate into their collective" with that of the white invasion of Australia. They like the Borg were prepared to kill and exterminate other life forms in order to prosper their species in addition to terra forming other planets and the inhabitants land to achieve there goals of assimilation.

The similarities between the Borg and the English cannot be dismissed, both used their technical advancements against their less technical opposition. And both exterminated any opposition without mercy and were hated by their enemies, but of course the real difference is that one is fictional and the other a real serial pest.

The english Borgs, invaded two hundred years ago and assimilated over one hundred language groups before destroying the rest, after which they then terra formed Indigenous land whilst introducing serial pests like the cane toad, European carp,rabbits, New Zealanders,leigh and Andrew Bolt.

Its the white man's greed that is destroying the planet not Indigenous people's as you article contends, we neither have the technology or interest in destroying our land. Our religion is based in the land whilst the whites is based in the dollar that is the difference.

An accurate account by Mr Crook

And while many scientists are now saying that the dingo has much worth and can be of environmental benefit, we continue to poison these creatures with the heinous bait, 1080. One must also question the wisdom of using 1080 when our eco systems are so drastically threatened.

In addition, almost two-thirds of land in Australia has been modified for human uses, primarily grazing of natural vegetation.

Australia has the world's highest rate of native animal extinctions - more than all other countries combined, yet we continue on rampage, encroaching on native habitats and grazing millions of animals in preparation for live exports. In fact, we practically harvest anything that moves(providing it's profitable of course!) by transporting millions per annum of live sheep, cattle, goats, deer, camel etc to the lands of the barbarians.

Australia exports 80% of its agricultural products and we are now witnessing the alarming environmental and scientific evidence of overgrazing by livestock, the chemically laden crops which substitutes as animal feed and the resulting toxic state of our eco systems.

Ironically and despite the decades of rampant and inhumane slaughter, to rid Australia of feral animals, feral numbers appear to be on the increase. And man foolishly boasts that he has dominion over other species?

Are we incapable of realising that our avaricious and inhumane treatment of other species is simply leading to own demise?

Well stated Edgar. Copy of my response below to a newspaper article today on whaling, kangaroo culling and other animal industries:

Chris Kenny is right to highlight the hypocrisy of the response to the Japanese whale slaughter (The Advertiser, 20/2/08). However, to suggest that emotion should be removed from the argument in order to justify and protect our own animal slaughter industries is simplistic and barbaric. Emotional response to the pain and suffering of any animal, human or non-human, is completely appropriate and valid. A society that bases decisions purely on economic goals and selfish preferences is morally repugnant. In our wealthy Western societies, there are always more humane options available to protect crops, control populations, feed and clothe ourselves, and earn a living. We have the capacity to replace out-dated and cruel practices and industries with those that are more humane, healthy and environmentally progressive. Slaughter footage, whether of whales, cows, or kangaroos, does evoke an emotional response in most people - an inescapable fact. It is our higher intelligence and capacity for compassion that supposedly sets us apart from other species: one reason why an abattoir career is not one most people aspire to.

Humans have always put themselves first over animals but in reality we are all part of one big food chain. One of the most inhumane is live animal exports where they are subject to the most horrific conditions for some intangible made up human reasoning. Even in economic terms, the frozen meat trade is much more profitable for Australia than live animals and the practice should be banned.

As far as pests go, if the introduction of exotic species affects the survival of native animals is it morally sound to eradicate them and who makes the rules on what is morally acceptable or not? The effects of the cane toad is just as devastating as the effects of some weeds on our native forests. The decision in Canberra to cull kangaroos was to reduce numbers and hence competition for grasses during the drought to prevent death from starvation - which is a horrible way to die. A form of euthenasia if you like.

Does a whale have more rights than a gnat because research has proven that a whale is a sentient being, lives in families, high level communications and feels 'emotion'.

As a meat eating society, it goes follows that sheep and cattle are being killed so we can eat. If you feel strongly about how animals are killed you can always buy organic with a guarantee of humane killing methods. You can buy free range so that battery eggs become unviable. There are all sorts of things we can do to encourage humane practices.

Or you can become a vegetarian that will solve any moral dilemmas.

"As a meat eating society, it goes follows that sheep and cattle are being killed so we can eat."

Some good points there Pelican, however, the issue with grazing millions of sheep and cattle in this arid land is the problem of cloven hooves, a significant reason why our environment is now trashed.

Western Australia, (big sheep country) is estimated to contain about 75% of Australia's dryland salinisation problems. Land salinisation results in a rapid and catastrophic collapse of terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems.

Previous estimates indicate that up to 80% of bushland on farms and 50% of bushland on public lands in agricultural areas in WA will eventually be affected.

WA is now one of the planet's environmental hotspots and yet all exporters appear to be interested in is increasing live exports thus increasing stocking density. So the recipients of those exports may salivate over their meat kill, suppliers salivate over the profits but few ponder to assess how much those millions of heads of live exports per year are costing Australia (and beyond) in terms of ecological survival.

Vegetation cover in WA, which provides a protective cover for the land, has decreased in 34% of monitored regions alone, over the past decade.

I assure you, reducing ones consumption of meat is difficult. However, the land resource is fundamental for sustaining life and a healthy ecological system. Those fundamentals are now seriously threatened whilst our modern day Neros remain indifferent and continue to fiddle the cash registers during which time, other countries continue to question the morality of this nation.

He says: "Their only response to this is to say that we fail to understand their country ways, are divorced from nature and are overly sentimental, and then to boldly state that they in fact care for animals more than we."

Yep. Mr Crook has got it in one. He also shows the reason why with this sentimal puffery.

He then says: "Since then we have declared war on many other animals. Imported animals which are legally killed in numerous ways include horses, pigs, cats, dogs, rabbits, buffalo, camels and toads. The chance that this slaughter will ever stop is minimal as the Australian population continues to believe it is necessary and that without it we would be overrun by these animals."

I see. Lets take 'cats' for instance.

I honestly believe in the importance of preserving native fauna.

Mr Crook doesn't, or is unwilling to make the necessary hard choices to do this. He'd rather hold on to some moral high ground that makes him feel better about the situation, while native fauna populations are destroyed.
It's precisely the kind of attitude that makes country folk scorn urban dwellers as "overly sentimental."

Perhaps next time a feral cat is chowing down on a bilby, Mr Crook can kindly ask it not to and pass the message along.

Look - I've no truck with animal cruelty and I'm well aware it's man's fault these pests exist and we've got to take some responsibility for that.

That responsibility, comes in the hard choice, of putting pest animals down humanely, be it the feral cats, wild dogs, or the other animals, which DO harm native wildlife and ecosystems.

The fact is, we would be overrurn. Yes, our animal control systems have many problems, but the 'sentimental' attitude Mr Crook displays isn't a constructive answer at all.

This article started out reasonably, but rapidly became silly - for the reasons pointed out by TRTL above.

Unfortunately, it ended up in Animal Liberation cloud cuckoo land, and is therefore unlikely to attract any rational support - which is probably a good thing.

Hi dickie, I am in complete agreement with you on the subject of cloven hooves and the effects enmasse this has on the land.

I know I keep pushing this barrow but one of our biggest problems is that of a sustainable population, an issue that is all but ignored by governments as in the too hard basket. While our food production increases so will our land degradation. Many farmers are now seeing the wisdom of diversifying and moving away from intense monoculture and including in the land mix, natural vegetation or the planting of trees.

Man has the ingenuity to come up with solutions but sometimes it takes nature to have the final say and get things moving. We should be come less reactive and more proactive.

Pelican
I would like to repond to some of your comments along with others regarding animal welfare.

You say if people feel strongly they can but organic.

They can buy free range.

First of all there is much misunderstandning not to mention problems with labelling regarding Organic.

As for buying free range try walking into Coles or Woolworths and asking for eg for free range pork.

If we are to help improve animal welfare we all have to at least appear to be reasonable.

You have to actually put the intensive farmer out of business by
producing a health cruelty free product to compete promote.

As the writer pointed out 3% of people are non meat eaters.

For the other 97% of the animals surley it would be better for us to actually start these free range farms ourselves to put the cruel intensive industry out of business.


You complain of cloven hooves and the effects enmasse this has on the land.
The difficulty I have with that is then we can hardly argue against feedlots can we or intensive farming of any type..

If your stock in not out inn the ranges you have no protection what so ever from bush fires or creeks clogging up the water holes with feeds.

Hi PALEIF

Did you read the part about a sustainable population which is essential to minimise our impact on our environment (including open grazing). While recognising the impact of open grazing I am not advocating feedlots or intensive farming and if you read my entire post you would see that what I am saying is that all parts of a solution cannot happen in isolation, with a sustainable population the impact of open grazing will be minimised – less people = less impact. We can’t just ignore the impact on the environment because it does not suit our argument.

I did not mean to suggest there would be a sudden change overnight or that there is quick fix and unless we encourage cruelty free practices through our purchasing power, where consumers can influence (to some extent) the demand on these products. It will take a period of time for the agricultural sector to catch up, but the number of organic producers has grown because of demand both domestically and for exports to countries like Japan where demand for organic and non-GM food for example are high.

You can’t force people to make the choices you make but only through education – my family eats two vegetarian meals per week and we have cut down on red meat and I know many have done the same in that whole - think globally act locally type philosophy. Unlike the UK, Australia does not have a large vegetarian population and it can be difficult to find goods that might fit with this lifestyle especially in smaller cities. I am not a vegetarian but where we live there are two organic butchers, access to legitimate free range eggs (if you don’t have your own happy free range chooks) and markets with organic produce stalls. Even Coles and Woolworths stock organic meat on occasions but it is not always a reliable supply and I agree with you that there are problems with labelling

Pelican,
Hello everybody

We have not come into this thread to argue that others should assist to reopen abattoirs here in Australia to phase out live exports.
You were correct when you say you can’t 'force' people to do anything and of course that was never our intention.

Our intention was always to give the 3% of the people who do not eat meat at least the opportunity to see what the alternative put up by the Muslim leaders of Australia working with RSPCA QLD and pale were.

P>
Even Coles and Woolworths stock organic
Pale
Try buying fee range pork at Christmas or any other time for hat matter. They will tell you they have never heard of it.

They actually ask you"whats that” manager after manager store by store.
Coles and Woolworths along with many others have a duty to provide cruelty free meat.

They sell petrol grog and have many business investments.

IMOP the whole Animal Welfare issue needs to be presented with the right people backing it and the right legal team to the UN.

That entire aside now is a perfect time considering the efforts going into aboriginal areas plight of crop farmers for opening of fast food veggie stores to compete with McDonalds etc.

It is in fact this we would like to discus with you. Given PETAs contacts and the Humane Society just to mention a few with high profile people it would be good if somebody put such as proposal to them as a united effort to improve what is over all a most concerning situation we find ourselves in.

I am ‘sure the crop farmers would welcome the direct business as the country is now even more to be flooded with cheap imports.
You might find the Regional and Rural report an interesting read.


If you wraped each veggie burger in a bad with a = thank you for have helped us to stop this and that= Slowly people would start to fel they were making a real difference.
Just an Thought.
I will try to post the report.

Oh dear Edgar,

Looks like it’s just you and me. I think the crews off slumming it again in the general forum. The old email System still works I see ;)

Things are pretty "Crook" when Morgan and TRTL are looking good. (Don’t drop your stubby Morgan.) u, like it- Crook ;)

All Right now that’s the jokes aside. The Rudd Government has gone through the grants dished out by the Good old nationals and it’s as we all would have expected appalling.
Money missing. Grants given for projects that when you rock up there is just an empty block of land etc. See-

http://www.anao.gov.au/search.cfm?cat_id=0&arg=regional%20partnerships%2


Rudd is copping heaps and rightfully so about pre election promises made by Kerry O’Brion regarding live exports. - { I could have told you that but you never ask)

Rudd I am sure would welcome a proposal to assist CROP farmers and save face a bit with you guys IF it’s handled properly.
(We can’t take anymore on)
If your given a grant to assist to establish direct links between CROP farmers and new infrastructure of veggie and fruit fast food stores it will assist to promote alternative foods and assist to re build a working relationship with farmers. (It’s a start)

Staff is a real problem in regional areas so maybe your friends at PETA could promote a back packer save the animals pick fruit business.
Actually promoted properly world wide you could do quite well and be able to expand world wide.

Re Whales- has anybody thought of rallying outside Greg Normans he’s awfully quite?
Now after saying the above theses are just some ideas that perhaps you might like to consider with PETA but anybody could do it.

] My advise is don’t wait just contact someone like Harvey Norman- Australian made- Australian owned and try to do a deal with BP on old sites etc.
I know you won’t consider this now but keep it and read in a few months time.
Seriously thanks from the animals whatever you do its better than nothing.
Good night Edgar

Hello everybody. Haven't time tonight to read all comments but will return to them tomorrow. Just wanted to add that I lived for over 10 years in a farming area in Tasmania. Shooting and the laying of 1080 baits occurred frequently. We used fencing to keep grazing wildlife out of our paddocks but were very much in the minority. There was no consideration for wildlife at all - referred to as vermin. We moved there thinking we would have an idyllic lifestyle when in fact it was just horrible. Animals poisoned by 1080 suffer a slow and agonising death. Any we came across, we shot to put them out of their misery. This is still happening in Tassie. Many die in streams and are left to rot and they wonder why they have problems with the Giant Crayfish and the platypus in Tassie. Wedge tailed eagles too must be affected by this poison as, where we lived, we had many sightings of them. Not long after 1080 baiting, no wedgetails. Not hard to jump to conclusions. As far as shooting was concerned, we copped a lot of abuse when we asked shooters to vacate our land. Seems they regard it as their right. Thank goodness we no longer live there - what could have been a dream really was a nightmare!

bluewren,
I was just about to go to bed which I should of course when I read your post. Not that I dont every night night butI am sure of no sleep as I lay thinking of those poor animals as I am sure you still do.
Again the only way to improve things slightly is to attack the industry supplying the products.
There were told of the effect the the saffron plant has on animals. it is quite painless and actually grows in Tasi.

Gentics of course could be used. They stick to their products for pure products even if they know there is a kinder drug to save costs.

We need to find a company to help launch it and put them out of business.
Thanks for taking the time to share

"I assure you, reducing ones consumption of meat is difficult." I don't agree with that Dickie. There is so much yummy veg food available these days. Even vegans can find something better and healthier to substitute nearly any ingredient in any traditional dish now. Plenty of people have managed to give up smoking since it became unfashionable. I have given up both and I can say that giving up all animal products was a walk in the park compared to giving up the fags. I believe the vegetarian lobby, if it is ok to call it that, is going to achieve a great deal over the next decade in our country. My heart goes out to all the tortured animals in the meantime.

Thank you for your kind advice Veg and your words of encouragement in defence of the defenceless where these hapless creatures continue to be subjected to man's inhumanity.

I spoke with the new Ministers advisor today re Halal Slaughter AFIC. He seemed very poorly informed and was 'not aware' that the application was regected for =
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plan-to-push-for-halal-standard-rejected/2007/10/08/1191695801343.html

From AFIC WEb page=
Muslims in Agriculture: Lessons from Indonesia and Malaysia

How long can the Muslims sit back and let the non-Muslim countries produce food for us? Countries like Australia, New Zealand and Brazil have long been profiting from supplying Halal. What is happening out there with the Muslims? Khatijah Rahmat puts two Muslim countries, Indonesia and Malaysia, under the microscope

There has been a change in Muslims leaders attitude since the new president Ikabel Patel
This is what Dr Ali had to say about Muslims and Halal our past president

Please scroll to the bottom of page.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plan-to-push-for-halal-standard-rejected/2007/10/08/1191695801343.html

DR Ameer Ali has in the past written of concerns in the Muslim Times and many share concerns.

The original talks were to co joint plants here and pre stun. AFIC has not upheld their MOU with HKM

I will post information from time to time fyi. Otherwise some of you might like to join the Halal news Info as you must use key pass word

http://www.afic.com.au/
Jan 16, 2008, 08:46

WHF-ID Netherlands highlights Malaysia’s gateway for Halal trade into Europe

As the first World Halal Forum-Industry Dialogue (WHF-ID) in 2008, the WHF-ID bandwagon set forth on another journey out west to the Netherlands, where the industry dialogue was held on 13th February 2008 at The Hague, to focus on the Netherlands as Malaysia’s gateway for Halal trade into Europe.
Feb 21, 2008, 14:40
There are two types of Muslims. The ones who want to work in with us and those who don’t. The Ag minister’s advisor assured us today that halal slaughter without stunning was throughout Australia and there was nothing wrong.
Already letters have been sent out to all abattoirs to remove stunning equipment and install knocking boxes ready for Halal requirements under their guideline.