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The Forum > Article Comments > Obituary for the first human clone > Comments

Obituary for the first human clone : Comments

By David van Gend, published 8/2/2008

Cloning as a serious science suddenly died: it has been superceded by a new simple, powerful and ethical technique.

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It must be nice beening Dr David van Gend beening able to tell the rest of us what is wrong and what is right. From what I've read there are still good reason to explore stem cell lines from clones.
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 8 February 2008 9:19:10 AM
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If man can clone an animal without the intervention of God, then man can clone a human without the intervention of God, so let's get it done and dusted and have an end to all this religious humbug.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 8 February 2008 9:48:25 AM
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VK3AUU.
Yes...but how do you know that God hasnt already intervened to stop cloning?
If you know anything about Him, He works at vastly different levels from men.
The Holy Spirit touches men and they dont even know they were touched.
Revealing a new technique to distract from cloning is childs play.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 8 February 2008 10:49:14 AM
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I don't see why I shouldn't be able to have myself cloned to provide myself organs if I need them. Can someone please explain to me why I shouldn't be able to use my own DNA to provide myself with these organs?
Posted by BN, Friday, 8 February 2008 11:53:36 AM
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We've cloned enough gods as it is; all they do is cause us trouble. Look at the Middle East mess.

The thought of being able to replicate or repair such as George Bush, Vladimir Putim and all the other psychopaths of the world, using merely their skin cells, is the scariest thing I have heard yet. This area of science should be abloished.
Posted by HenryVIII, Friday, 8 February 2008 12:18:21 PM
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What does the Bible actually say about cloning (human or otherwise)? What was Jesus Christ's position on cloning? Why isn't cloning mentioned in the Ten Commandments?
Posted by DavidJS, Friday, 8 February 2008 12:29:04 PM
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Thou shalt not clone thy neighbour's wife. Which is why I married seven different ones.
Posted by HenryVIII, Friday, 8 February 2008 1:00:43 PM
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DavidJS.
He would probably say "Do not have any other gods before me"... Exodus 20. That is, do not play God or try to do what He does. Its His Domain.
You shall not kill. That is, dont play with the egg and destroy it even in your little experiments.
Given time they would clone just about every class of human they wanted including leaders and soldiers and labourers. A ruling class and a coolie class.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 8 February 2008 2:40:11 PM
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HenryV111

Cloning George Bush will not produce another George Bush. It will only produce another grasping warped individual - of which the world has millions.

What makes you you is the unique set of experiences you have had which has written the large componennt of DNA capable of be written after your birth.
Posted by healthwatcher, Friday, 8 February 2008 9:04:57 PM
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Thanks David for a well-informed and well-written article. So refreshing to hear from someone who believes that to be human is to be humane.
Posted by apis, Friday, 8 February 2008 9:36:41 PM
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I don't see why I shouldn't be able to have myself cloned to provide myself organs if I need them. Can someone please explain to me why I shouldn't be able to use my own DNA to provide myself with these organs?
Posted by BN, Friday, 8 February 2008 11:53:36 AM

BN Did you know that there are 9 references to yourself in that little piece of me-ism ? Very Interesting.
Posted by father of night, Friday, 8 February 2008 10:07:49 PM
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yes father of night - that was done on purpose.
Posted by BN, Friday, 8 February 2008 10:40:16 PM
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What a pity so few intelligent comments have been made to this excellent post by David.
He speaks with facts and evidence while most of those commenting clearly lack anything worthwhile to say except to attack David for being a Christian and having a valid viewpoint.

By the way Kenny - man has not successfully cloned animals let alone humans.

HenryV111 - It is not 'gods' that cause trouble it is humans, humans who often think they are god - the irony is they usually don't believe there is a god because they are humanists. Not one tyrant of the last 100 years was a Christian.

Lastly - DavidJS - The Ten Commandments do mention the issue of cloning – No 6, "Thou shalt not murder", covers the issue because embryo stem cell research involves murdering a human embryo – which, of course, is a developing baby!
No 10, could also be sighted, dealing with coveting, – so often the driver of such research is the desire to have what nature cannot give us naturally.
Posted by Salty, Saturday, 9 February 2008 12:37:22 PM
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According to Salty "...so often the driver of such research is the desire to have what nature cannot give us naturally."

You mean like immunity from diseases like smallpox, cholera and other epidemics which are now, thankfully, history? Like the ability to fly across the globe or to the moon? Like IVF, vision correction and neurosurgery?

Whether this sort of research Van Gend tries to debunk can deliver anything worthwhile (and we don't know unless try), I would have thought it obvious that all scientific research was about attempting to improve on nature. And incidentally Van Gend and his Australian Family Association cronies are not above using pseudo-scientific fraud to try to get gays become heterosexual (read some of his other writings on this website).

I don't absolutely know whether cloning is ultimately useful. But I certainly am not convinced one way or other by arguments from the Bible anymore than I am from astrologists or believers in witchcraft.
Posted by DavidJS, Saturday, 9 February 2008 4:49:29 PM
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What does the Bible actually say about cloning (human or otherwise)? What was Jesus Christ's position on cloning? Why isn't cloning mentioned in the Ten Commandments?
DavidJS,
As un-religious as I am I think your query falls into the category of "it goes without saying".
Posted by individual, Sunday, 10 February 2008 8:10:50 AM
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David,

You easy assumption that a cloned pre-embryo (or any pre-embryo) is a human being is almost certainly false. How do you justify it, in the face of the arguments about twinning and the fact that every pre-implantation embryo divides? Do you hold that the placenta and the extraembryonic membranes are part of the foetus? And if so, what do you say of cases where two foetuses share one placenta?

And what do you make of the arguments that say that we are brains; that we die when the brain ceases to function, and begin when the brain starts to function?

Moreover, if a set of totipotent cells (and not just pluripotent) could be made in the new manner, would that set count as a human being in your view? Or if we could make a set of pluripotent cells that between them could be nurtured to form an embryo, would that count?

In other words, how do you jusitfy your moral outrage?
Posted by ozbib, Sunday, 10 February 2008 9:09:53 PM
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Uh, Salty, I'm not sure where you're receiving your information, but there's been plenty of cloned animals. They're already debating legislation about cloned meat.

Heck, here's an article which shows how far the debate has come. There are plenty of cloned animals out there.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/021080dnbusclones.38f2060.html

Evidently, you're a tad behind the times. Since Dolly, there's been plenty of cloned animals.

The debate is now focused on how to keep the bred stock from cloned animals identified within the food chain.

They've even created genetically modified pigs for use in farms. Google 'genepacker' and pigs, and you'll find plenty of examples, there's even a product listing on the monsanto site. They're designed to have more litters of piglets, with more surviving piglets in each litter.

It's for reasons like this, that I'm somewhat dubious of the claims made by Van Gend - not what's said, but what's being left out.

I've read similar articles from him before - he never touches on the reasons why there is still significant debate in this area of science.

As much as he would like to believe the debate is over, it isn't. There are still many reasons why the controversial areas of stem cell research are continuing. It would appear he would like to jump in and halt any research along these lines before the total case is debated.

In order to make a persuasive argument, Van Gend would have to touch on these and provide compelling evidence as to why these reasons aren't valid. As it stands, he attempts to ignore and pretend there is no debate, thus, I can only discard this article as commentary driven more by ideology than science.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 11 February 2008 8:45:56 PM
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