I don't avocate the use of torture against civilians under any circumstances in peacetime, but have no problems in time of war where the information could be used to save the lives of innocent people.

Why should we always play by the rules, do we honestly believe that Islamic and Christian terrorists care about the use of torture or other human rights abuses in order to achieve their objectives.

Mossard stopped using torture after some scandles in the past that made the knesset lefties demand changes, Hamas has repaid that support by sucide bombing Jewish civilians.

I have no problems with the use of any methods physical or other to extract information from terrorists that save Australian lives. Why because maybe if the Indonesian police had used such methods on the Bali bombers when they first came to their attention, them we might just have prevented the Bali bombings happening by at least 12 months and saved lives.

I have seen torture being applied to terroists whilst in the army and have seen many brave terrorist be reduced to quivering pants wetting cowards. So giving the Bali bombers the treatment would be a pleasure to watch as it would take the smile of their faces especially if we applied the treatment to their families.

Horus wrote:

"Whether DH should have been charged in the USA or Aust is immaterial.
i) His case would have been brought to finality, &
ii) He would have likely have received a heavier sentence

If CLs had not at ever step, politicised the process."

Oh. So, by Horus's logic, CLs who demanded that the law be allowed to take its course were politicizing the process, while politicians who wanted to bypass the law by a purely executive process, and who lied in order to do so, were not. And the fact that Hicks didn't get the longer sentence provided by the ordinary criminal law was all the fault of those who wanted to apply that law.

Well, I suppose if you torture your logic long enough, it will confess.

Sancho, thank you for your articulate posts.

Horus and Yindin, torture has been applied to people with information and people without information. Both have been reduced to 'quivering pants wetting cowards', that's what torture does. Horus is most likely an 'arm chair torturer', Yindin you imply to have experience as a soldier. Hopefully not an Australian soldier.

Both my parents and my extended family know quite a bit about torture. They were prisoners of war in WWII, both as soldiers and civilians. Though the Japanese used it on soldiers and civilians even children as young as 13 (my father) it did not result in victory for them. I won't touch on the personal costs of torture as we are only concerned here with the greater good and a few lives is not of consequence if it can save other lives.

Some posters appear to discredit the notion that armed conflict can be waged according to rules. Winning by any means is what counts. That's how the Sadam Huseins rule their patch. If that's OK, let the most ruthless rule, then those who think so should say so up front. Civil liberties obviously are then of no importance.

Reading all this stuff, you would think there was a war on. You might think there was some point to all the wrangling.

- but it's all pointless tripe, because there is NO War On Terror.

There is only a struggle for resources, money and power. There is only a struggle to maintain the hocus-pocus while it lasts. All it takes is an article like this one from Mirko to induce a kind of morbidity of the intellect -

"Remember, remember the Great War On Terror - gunpowder, treason and plot".

Looking back to where all this hocus-pocus began, please reference the latest video from the 9-11 bereaved, who are not so easily diverted as we:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4399917864007973679

You will need a lazy two hours to take it all in. I would be interested in your thoughts Mirko.

Chris and many others may not be aware or may choose to ignore the fact that B Laden declared war on western countries, long before 9/11. The video of his declaration has been played on television several times.

Aren't most wars fought over resources, money and power? If Chris would like to forgo his share of Australia’s resources and money I can provide my bank account number.

I love the sages who derisively dismiss the current situation as “all about oil” apparently they all walk to work; where a steam driven factory is controlled by a PC housed in plastic that was sourced from mung beans. For these individuals I would like them to put Canadian Oil Sands into the search engine. Then for a second search add China to the former.

I would think the families of the dead and maimed (from all sides) would be suitably outraged to hear that some safe and affluent Aussie denies the existence of a war in Iraq, Israel, Palestine and Afghanistan.

Has Chris articulated a modification of the old definition of a recession? You know -- if I loose my job it is a depression but if Chris looses his it is a recession. If some one known to Chris is killed in Iraq, it is a war; otherwise it is just a morality play, whose only use is as a stimulus for pseudo intellectuals to flaunt their cognitive might with.

Mr Bush doesn't share your concern about Mr Bin Laden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o

- but then, the good ol' boys helped 'em get away:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_BS83BmTIQ

- while the rest of us swallowed the playschool stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OahfoDE6Fg

No wonder Bhutto had to go. Loose lips sink ships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg

This is the FBI's wanted poster for OBL:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

- note, there is no mention of 9-11. That's because they admit that there is insufficient actionable evidence connecting the two. Doesn't it make you just a teeny bit worried, considering we have been a party to the slaughter of a million Iraqis or so?

Or is the crime so monstrous - the truth so frightening that we can't find the courage to face it?

Maybe Peter Finch should have the last word:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HjHwrIuqHs

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Did I mention that I am writing this on a laptop in a cave?

- if you believe that, you'll believe anything -