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The Forum > Article Comments > Torture is bad - killing innocent people is worse > Comments

Torture is bad - killing innocent people is worse : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 28/12/2007

It’s better to be a reluctant torturer than a murderous bystander.

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Bagaric has made a much better job of explaining his attitude to torture than he did in a previous attempt some time ago.

This time he makes sense, and only a warped member of the loony left could argue against his proposition. This, of course, means about 80% of the drips on OLO.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 28 December 2007 11:07:08 AM
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"courts across the world have routinely thrown out confessions which are demonstrably true (because they are corroborated by objective evidence) on the basis that they were only made because the criminals were beaten up."

And courts across the world have routinely jailed and executed people who gave false confessions under torture.

Recent subjects who have been whisked off the streets for some "compassionate torture" by US subsidiaries have included a dozen Pakistani men who committed the heinous crime of wearing a particular brand of cheap generic watch which contains a solinoid once found in a nailbomb. No doubt the subsequent electrocution of their genitals and release without charge saved hundreds of lives and won the hearts and minds of many moderate Pakistanis.

Compared to the number of deaths caused by accident and misadventure, the impact of terrorism is minute. We would be better of torturing kitchen staff to reveal details of inadequate food safety practices which lead to botulism.

Torture is not urgent and necessary, it is simply being used a lazy alternative to rigorous police work and evidence-gathering. The war on terror has been characterised by gross abuses of authority and routine peddling of falsehoods, and now those same peddlars want carte blanch permission to produce tailored confessions to whatever crime is politically expedient.

Viva free speech, but this article is simply loathsome.
Posted by Sancho, Friday, 28 December 2007 11:27:38 AM
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OK. So when I find myself being tortured until I incriminate somebody, I'll know that Mirko Bagaric is fair game, provided of course that I have done my homework on him and cooked up a plausible story.

The witch hunts were stopped because enough of the victims on the racks had the presence of mind to accuse a hunter of being a witch. The end justified the means -- eh, Dr Bagaric?
Posted by grputland, Friday, 28 December 2007 11:39:44 AM
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We have been over this ground with Mirko before. A very good counter-argument was run in this article:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3886

The cost-benefit calculus of utilitarianism may be a useful way to resolve many everyday issues. But I agree with Manderson: “Ethics means that there are some things you do not do even though it would advantage you (or the whole society) to do them.” Torture is definitely one of those things.
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 28 December 2007 2:23:08 PM
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Well said Sancho, grputland and Rhian.

I find Mirko's obsessive compulsion to advocate torture a little disturbing.

<<First, it’s claimed that torture doesn’t elicit reliable information.>>

I'd be interested to see the statistics of obtaining life saving information versus obtaining false information, which Mirko has conveniently(?) skimmed over. But considering how much torture is kept “under wraps” (especially when unsuccessful), it's unlikely we'd ever have any accurate statistics.

To stoop to the sub-human level of accepting torture, there would have to be an immeasurably small portion of cases in which torture didn't provide results. Anyone who argues otherwise is either simple-minded or completely deranged.

<<The second common objection to torture is that we can never be sure that the suspect has the relevant information. If that’s the case, simply don’t torture...>>

Wow! Just like that, hey? How do we know when we're sure enough? To some, the idea of “sure enough” can differ greatly.

<<It is also contended that life saving torture will lead down the slippery slope of other cruel practices. This is an intellectually defeatist argument...>>

But Mirko, you still didn't explain why accepting torture wouldn't lead to other cruel practices (which human nature, mixed with the corruption of power, suggests it will). Or if it did, why it would be worth the risk of condemning future generations to a society so deplorable, our descendants wouldn't be willing to risk death in exchange for a more civilised society.

Your argument here is simplistic and short-sighted.

<<A further common argument against torture is that it is inhumane and undemocratic. These are not reasons - just displays of venting. There could be nothing more inhumane than doing nothing as innocent people are being tortured to death.>>

For this point to be completely valid, one would also have to conclusively demonstrate the validity of the first three points - which Mirko has not yet done.

The whole torture debate isn't as simple as Mirko has put it. And if I've made it too complex, then perhaps that's an indication that it may not be worth the risk in the long run.
Posted by AJ Philips, Friday, 28 December 2007 2:47:34 PM
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Mirko Bagaric as usually mounts an objective and serious argument, this time in regards to torture. But the seriousness of his contention will not, and cannot, be accepted by the faint-hearted and by nipple-fed intellectuals a la Julian Burnside.

http://kotzabasis5.wordpress.com
Posted by Themistocles, Friday, 28 December 2007 6:00:33 PM
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