There are many reasons not to take Antony Lowenstein seriously, and his “...extreme conservative elements of Liberal government ideology” in the very first paragraph of his article is just one of them.

Anybody who thinks that the Liberals (even the name denies conservatism) are in the least conservative, let alone extremely conservative, has to be off his rocker; particularly after the embarrassing vote buying efforts and appeals to no hopers during the election they just lost.

I wonder if his second paragraph is supposed to ‘prove’ the conservatism of the Liberals. If it is, Lowenstein is totally ignoring the fact that British Labour and some of the wet left Europeans supported the same actions, in their own ways – mainly, except for Britain and scanty few, by allowing the US and Australia to do the dirty work for them.

Moving on to his “…74 per cent saw Australia as more of a terrorist target because of its decision to join the “war on terror”, Lowenstein doesn’t appear at all interested in the fact that the 74% were dead wrong in the beliefs. How many years is it now, and no terror attacks? Just a few juvenile ratbags locked up who might or might not have had the intelligence and ability to stage terrorist acts here.

But this article, like all his others, is a chance to bash Israel. Kevin Rudd will continue the pro-Israel stance of the dreadful ‘conservative’ John Howard. (Does that make Rudd an extreme conservative, also?)

With Jews (hard to call this bloke a friend to fit in with the old saying) like Antony Lowenstein, Israel doesn’t need enemies

Leigh,

It is considered quite evident by political commentators across the board that the Liberal Party has included "extreme conservative elements", just as the Labor Party does have radicals. The liberals in the Liberal Party are beginning to rise again after several years of being sidelined.

If you doubt the inclusion of extreme conservatives in the Liberal Party, I suggest you look at the influence of Urbanchich in yesteryear, the fact that Pauline Hanson was originally an endorsed Liberal Party candidate, and the recent anti-Islamic leaflet. From their partners, surely you remember the National's candidate in the 2004 State election, Dan Van Blarcom?

The fact that Loewenstein is a Jewish critic of Israel is simply an example that some honourable people are prepared to put aside their sectional loyalties in favour of universal human rights. People with a Jewish heritage, such as Loewenstein, Finkelstein, Chomsky, Shlaim etc are great examples of those who reject the proposition that one must always support "my country right or wrong". Good on 'em for having that degree of moral integrity.

'Rudd is a devoted Christian'
Can we honestly take the author seriously? Do devoted Christians get drunk and visit strip clubs? Mr Rudd might well be a decent citizen but to call him a devoted Christian is the same as calling Bob Brown devoted to marriage being between man and woman. What Mr Rudd has shown to this point is that he will do anything to be elected. If most Aussies are pro Israel he will be also.

Runner, Rudd is a devout Christian. Yes sometimes they do get drunk and visit strip clubs. Some are apologetic about the incident, some are not. Some of them have even been alcoholics and strippers themselves. Some even still are.

Do not forget that the first saint, Saint Dismas, ordained by Jesus himself (the only one, iirc), was a thief by trade.

You may not approve of Rudd's version of Christianity, but the core principles (there's only two, remember) are there.

If you want to read up on Rudd's "Christian socialism" here it is, straight from the horses mouth.

http://www.themonthly.com.au/tm/node/300

Leigh, runner... what you both don't take into account, are that your views are on the conservative fringe.
So compared to you Leigh, yes, the Howard regime wasn't all that conservative. Compared to that elusive grey zone defined as the political centre, the Liberal party was certainly to the right.

I find it interesting that you don't consider them to be conservative, as in a world where all things are relative, I can't see many nations that are more conservative, except perhaps for the schizophrenic attitudes in the US, exemplified by the FOX network style dubbed by some as 'conservatism + boobies.'

As far as Rudd's christian credentials go, I'm afraid he is very much a committed christian, runner.
More's the pity, I'd quite like to see a leader with the guts to proclaim his agnosticism.

Again, your views aren't in sync with most of the populace, who very clearly signalled an emphatic "who the hell cares?" after Rudd's stripper revelations. Surely there are more important considerations.

AAaah...the Leftoid, retarded BLAME/SHAME game... and Lowenstien is so miserable as to try it with our new PM.

"A visit by Rudd to the occupied Palestinian territories would be a welcome indication that he is keen to understand the daily realities of Israel’s occupation."

ERR...no.... what it will show is that he is so gullible as to be manipulated by a leftoid no nothing moron (sorry.. moron IS a valid descriptor there) who cannot see a black wall 2 inches in front of him in a snow covered landscape.

MORON
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
2. Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69.

Let the evidence speak for itself.

Lowestien will probably next be defending the rights of Indonesian fishermen to rape and pillage our shark stocks (which are the primary target of those fishermen) so he can goto the nearest Chinese resturant and order 'sharkfin soup'...

All he would see is 'traditional rights'.. would he see 'overfished/underegulated Indonesian fishing grounds' ?

Would he see the historic connection between the Bajo fishermen of Papela in Roti and the Islamist extremism as recently as 1954, and the fact that they are in Papela BECAUSE they were chased there by the Indonesian army for trying to set up an Islamic State in Makassa?
Would he be mentioning the tens of thousands of Christians hunted from their homes by the "Jihadis" supported by these people ?

Nah.. he would be saying poor underprivileged Indonesians.. just like he is saying "Poor oppressed Palestinians"

Does he mention the 'Charter of Hamas'?
Does he mention the regular hurling of rockets at Sderot, Israel?
Does he mention the homicide bombings of Israelis?
Does he mention the violence and hatred of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others who want Israel destroyed?

Of course not, that would be too much like 'sound judgement'..in which he is clearly lacking.. making him.. a 'moron'. If not that.. at least an enemy of Australia and our allies.

Actually boaz, I think it's more about realising neither side is without guilt and that if you just start barracking for one side, you're never going to make any progress.

A realisation that appears conspicuously absent from your post.

wait...there's more.

Here is evidence..of Lowenstiens 'moron' condition. (moron=lacking good judgement)

He says:

>>Howard led the country for nearly 12 years and remained a strong believer in the Bush administration’s “war on terror” rhetoric and actions. Australia supported the Iraq war, the overthrow of the Taliban, Guantanamo Bay, extraordinary rendition, harsh anti-terror legislation, Israel’s colonisation of the occupied territories and international isolation of the democratically-elected, Hamas government.<<

Notice the little gem in the middle and the other one at the end.

TALIBAN... presumably, the implication here is that the Taliban with all their enlightened social policies of murder, rape, women "barefoot/pregnant/over hot stove" (and beat the daylights out of them if they don't comply) are immune to the ideas of Justice?
Forget the fact that under their watch training camps prepared many young muslims for 'war against the west'..... this all means nothing.

HAMAS...DEMOCRACTICALLY ELECTED.

Well Anthony.. SO WAS HITLER!

Hitler had a 'view' about Jews... and the Fatherland.
so does Hamas. Those views are not so far apart.

Many Jews were killed by Muslim recruits from Bosnia in German SS units....

Your sympathies appear to lie with the enemies of Israel... one wonders where you would have been... and with whom you would be associated during WWII.

Truth Will Out

Re’ recent news in our 'West Australian' about Israel illegally joining the nuclear club back in 1969.

Cannot believe as the article states that the Americans did not give permission.

Report that both Nixon and Kissinger were against it sounds like a deliberate lie to protect US interests.

If it is really true that the world let tiny Israel become a nuclear pariah power in the Middle East, with US allowance to strike larger nations if needed, it should be regarded as one of the tragedies of modern history.

About Iran, said to possibly face an Israeli initial ariel attack next year, with American raids to follow?

Though Iran should be able to stand up to America conventionally as Vietnamese cities also held out, it is possible that Iran will eventually suffer nuclear strikes from both America and Israel.

All this while Iran has never attacked another country in the Middle East, the US having broken just about every law in the book.

The latest traitorous act by America is on right now in Iraq, the local Shias whom the US mainly went into save from Saddam’s Sunnis now look about to become America’s sworn enemies because they are related to Iran - while what’s left of Saddam’s crack 200,000 Sunni military force, looks like soon to be put on the US military payroll to later help Cheney in his threatened attack on Iran.

It makes one wonder what will be eventually written about this stage of the Iraq War with so much muzzled by the media, that our population appears half-happily dumbed down right now about Middle East problems?

Now back to Mordecai - if the report is true that the US did not give permission for Israel to go nuclear, we might well ask who did with the UN apparently non-commentus during this period?

So we are left with a Mordecai who tried to do the most Ethical Honourable thing towards world opinion, whom we have let be virtually locked up for life for something the Israeli leaders themselves should be doing time for?

A well thought out piece advocating that our new government should actually look first hand at the Israel/Palestine issue and use what influence we do have to help people come to a positive solution. A piece about peace from one of the very few Jewish voices that can actually see the fallacy inherent in 'my country/race/religion right or wrong'

So obviously he's a raving lefty moron as so eloquently demonstrated by the elegant prose of the 'Axis of Idiocy'

Gents, why don't you take the time to actually READ the articles you revile BEFORE spouting off.

Leigh: John Howard was considered a Conservative strong man by the entire world. A little late to try disowning him now.

Runner: yes, Rudd is a devout Catholic. Alcohol, strip clubs and Catholicism aren't mutually exclusive. And criticizing a politician for appealing for votes is like blaming rain for being wet.

David: where in the article does Anthony offer support for the Taliban? And where the hell do Indonesian fishermen come in?

(Yes Hitler was elected, as was Hamas. I guess that's what sets them apart from Bush, eh? :-P )

The fact that a 'friend of Israel' must offer unconditional support is what has always frightened me about the situation. Without the ability to offer criticism to BOTH sides any attempt to sort out this mess is pointless.

And just so we are clear: no-ones hands are clean in this mess. David- for every one of you condemnations of the Palestinians, there is an equivalent Israeli atrocity.

While ever both sides feel like the 'victim' there will be no chance of progress. And while ever WE offer unconditional support for Israel, then we neuter any chance we have to help.

Criticism does not make you an enemy. As Anthony said- 'surely true friends offer friendly criticism when required.' If you wouldn't let a mate drink and drive does that make you his enemy? Or someone looking out for his welfare? Why should the Israeli situation be any different.

Yet another thought provoking article from Antony.

Its interesting whether US alliance loyalty or Jewish political pressure within Australia are the most prominent reason for Australia's strong support for Israel. Our politicians appear to be willing to risk a Muslim electoral backlash for maintaining support for Israel (100,000 Jews and 400,000 Muslims are quoted). Then again if support for Israel is bipartisan then Muslim voters have nowhere to go. In any case US alliance loyalty is usually compelling eg. our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, SAS in Iran(?) etc.

Antony could be underrating support in the wider Australia community (Christian etc) for Israel. A feeling that Jerusalem (birthplace of Christianity) is safer in Jewish hands than at risk in Palestinian hands may be widespread. If thats the case then Rudd, as a Christian, may have an additional reason to support Israel.

Another perspective, unlikely to be publicly aired policy, is that if Australia required nuclear weapons quickly Israel might be the most likely supplier. Israel has apparently developed nuclear warheads for its Harpoon land attack missiles http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp. If Australia was in desperate need of nuclear warheads for our Harpoon missiles (for Colllins submarines, F-111s etc) then Israel would have fewer political obstacles than most countries in being the supplier. Israel is fairly well know to be a (former) nuclear supplier to South Africa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Detonation so Israel would have little to lose.

In supplying nuclear technology or off the shelf weaponry to Australia Israel might also be acting as a proxy to the US (which if charged as a weapons proliferator has more to lose).

Hence the status of Israel as a 51st state and Australia as a 52nd states benefits all US states ;-) and explains Australia's relations with Israel.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/2007/06/australia-to-go-nuclear.html

Israel committed genocide and ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians from 530+ towns and villages in 1947-48 before the so-called partition was forced on the Palestinians.

I recommend a book by Ilan Pappe called "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine".

During the so-called violence of Gaza and Hamas in 2006 it was Israel who murdered 680 Palestinians while only 45 Israeli's were killed and most of them were soldiers. Israel destroyed another 400 homes, flew 15000 air raids, bulldozed an 800 year old mosque, stopped most food supplies and they control everything that goes in and out of Gaza.

I have really had a gutful of the Israeli apologists who just refuse to see the damn truth. Israel is one pissant little nation living on occupied territory yet they command the attention of the whole blind, guilt ridden western world as they bleed nations dry for compensation.

Runner and Leigh, grow up.

My goodness, Boaz!

>>Aaah...the Leftoid, retarded ... so miserable ... so gullible as to be manipulated by a leftoid no nothing moron (sorry.. moron IS a valid descriptor there) who cannot see a black wall 2 inches in front of him in a snow covered landscape... MORON 1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment. 2. Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69....Indonesian fishermen to rape and pillage our shark stocks... Islamist extremism as recently as 1954... tens of thousands of Christians hunted from their homes by the "Jihadis" supported by these people... 'Charter of Hamas'?... hurling of rockets... homicide bombings of Israelis... violence and hatred... Islamic Jihad... a 'moron'... at least an enemy of Australia and our allies.<<

I think you might need to swab down your keyboard after that lot.

Now, what was your point again?

NOTHING IS UNDOUBTABLE.

This conflict has to stop. Self abuse must be a sign that a culture is in pain or desperate. Hope is essential for any nationhood. If hope is under-threat so are the peoples hanging on to the things we take for granted in "everyday" life.

There is no right or left in this debate. Direct is a super-power at odds with a people displaced. Until homelessness, basic rights and services is restored across Palestinian territories, it is a tough ask to pretend things will be different.

In fact this is a problem we are seeing everywhere. Crux - the world of wellbeing rests with the emotional life of nations?

We need to wake-up. History is again at the core of issues unresolved. The longer we take to address them the deeper the inter-generational rift and the long-term scars.

Much of Israel's population wants resolve. (Especially the Youth). There is 'unfinished business' and the need to focus on healing - And, it is similar to this nations neglect of Indigenous peoples. Not by the witness of violence on the street as much as the witness or construct based on the structural violence.

People need to share their cultural empowerment and destiny equally.

How long will this take?

Rudd is level when it comes to these matters (I think), and it is why I voted for him and his whole team. I lay TRUST in seeing the differences and attending to them with some degree of responsiblity. There is too much APATHY. Politic's as usual... high flyers "acting-out"... it is why the world is struggling on all frontiers too counterpoise.

I pray as a citizen every-night that these issues find greater progress towards a more vaild and balanced consideration. It is the of children tomorrow, as I live today... who have to deal with the shocking nelglect of overdue-deliberation wanning from historical arrangements past. The theatre just gets deeper, complex, ingrained, the longer we remain as the impartial observers.

On all matters - what is it exactly that we plan to leave for those of the future?

http//www.miacat.com
.

Miacat, well, as far as our precious natural pitstocks are concerned, we seem madly out to use 'em all in record time, though admittedly they, not us, can melt down the metallics once again.

Won't be long anyhow, by the looks. Reminds one of an old story about the feudal Prince who was asked whether he knew there were natural riches down deep in his domain.

Of course, was the answer, but why use them all at once?
Think about those who come after us?

The point is, has our greed engulfed us so much, that we really have no adequate plan for future generations?

Cheers - BB, WA.

To add a bit more to how Israel became an illegal nuclear pariah power in the Middle East.

Apparently it is true that Israel began the programme without America's consent, but why the US let the illegal project go on, sounds unbelievable.

According to the article in our 'West Australian' newspaper dated Friday, November 30, 2007, certain documents were found on only the previous Wednesday in the US, which contain evidence that Israel was already in the process of going militarily nuclear without US permission.

The documents also reveal how the US could have stopped Israel in its deadly programme, but the administration
lacked leverage because it could not take steps that would have been politically disastrous at home, cancelling a sale of fighter jets to Israel.

According to the report, even Henry Kissinger was against allowing Israel to go nuclear, because as he mentioned, it would forever reorder the strategic power balance in the Middle East.

It is so interesting that in Murdoch Uni' during the Cold War an American lecturer warned us about the above - how allowing a tiny nation like Israel to go militarily nuclear, would create a lifetime of problems in the Middle East.

Also because it was Israel's above actions which caused Saddam of Iraq to try the same, with Israel knocking out the Iraqi installation under US guidance, what Kissinger predicted has been all too true, possibly even the American-made mess we now see in Iraq - adding on Cheney's present eagerness for a US payback on Iran.