Yes, the posting limits are rather annoying, which is why I usually stick to the General pages!

One of the points I am a bit surprised that no-one has made is that there is a lovely example in hand of how these problems apply in "white" countries as well (and before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not a white apologist - many have called me redneck and racist before!). Take the example of the UK. Even now, according to the article, it ranks right up there as one of the most class divisive societies. But look back to its past and you can see the full effect of what it was like to be born into a society where your place (job and income etc) were determined by your birth, and merit had little to do with advancement. The US is rapidly progressing down this path, although the tools there have been the division between education opportunities and the like, rather than enforcement of the class structure. Nevertheless, the effect will be much the same.

I read somewhere that Australia has been a "little experiment in socialism since its inception", which I feel is largely true. That has formed the basis of our "fairgo" society, and I'd hate to see that disappear. Yes, its probably slightly more costly from a tax perspective, but consider this - rarely is the cheapest option the best one. My prior comment about investing in the future of our society is based on this premise. If 1 child in a poor family gets the message along the line that we provide welfare because we care about their survival, then that's one child given the self-esteem to potentially pull themselves out of the same hole. And the self-esteem restored to that one can have a multiplier effect. That's the sort of society that I want my children and grandchildren to live in. One with compassion for others - not a dog-eat-dog world.

I call you a white and West hating bigot TLTR because I have been crossing swords with people who possess your incredible mindset for over ten years now, and I have a fair idea of their group motivations. They can’t just come right out an say “I hate white people, and I hate western capitalist society” because that is racism, and people like you need to pretend that you hold the moral high ground. So the trick is to always find fault in white Western capitalist society and always find some way to blame it for the gross mismanagement, violence, corruption and tyranny of other cultures.

Regardless of whether they are a race, a religion, a club, a clan, a class, a family, a political party, or a society, human beings are judged according to their group associations. It just isn’t possible to know everybody as individuals, so we look at their group associations to determine whether we consider individuals from that group to have values so similar to our own that we can accept them.. Almost every group makes no secret of what core values it expects its members to adhere to, so judging people by their group associations is usually very easy. I gather that you are not so tolerant that you would accept a Nazi as your friend?

Certain races, religions, and ethnicities create intractable social problems wherever they are allowed to settle. Your ideology insists that we must ignore that fact because we might be unjustly condemning decent people in those groups. To you, that noble principle trumps everything. And if it means importing race hate rapists, terrorists, violent criminals, and professional welfare recipients, then that’s just too bad. But to me, the welfare of the Australian people is my moral priority, and if that means I will have to unfairly condemn decent people who are not even Australian citizens anyway, then that is just too bad.

Redneck,

I think you'd make more progress if you use the term "cultural compatibility" rather than the broad-sweeping and politically- charged words "races, religions, and ethnicities" when assessing whether a certain group of individuals is OK to settle in Australia. Then, you can make a case according to the degree of ease with which migrant groups settle here.

Once you start doing that, the bad or incompatible cultures amongst them can be isolated and treated on their merits while the good cultures can fit in without bothering anyone and actually do well for themselves and the country. In essence, you simply want to filter out the bad ones and keep the good ones, but do it in a way where the reasoning is clear, based on merit and impartial. The ultimate test for inclusion or exclusion of a particular migrant group would be whether or not they genuinely threaten the existing fabric of society in Australia.

TRTL

I have no interest at all in 'debate'. I have sometimes reacted to you (and a few others) simply because you can't just express your own opinion and leave others to do the same without trying to re-educate them to your way of thinking.

I feel no obligation to present you with arguments, nor do I feel any need to explain myself to you. There are several people who believe the same things you believe, and say so, without feeling the need to criticise opposing views. You seem to want everyone to be the same as you are. It's not going to happen.

You stick to your opinions and I'll stick to mine. I'm really quite disgusted with myself that I took any notice of you in the first place: it has been a demeaning process, and it won't happen again.

So you're not actually arguing with me at all.

In response to each paragraph:

1) You've decided what mindset I have, then you've proceeded to formulate an entire argument based on your perceptions.
To you, it doesn't matter what argument I make. You've already decided I'm a white hating bigot, even though I just said I view western society as the best, most successful in the world.
What you neglect is that it's been built on critical analysis and the fact that people have fought at every stage for things like the right to vote and free speech. If people had simply sat back and refused to criticise, western society wouldn't exist.

2) The key difference between a Nazi and someone of a particular race is choice, redneck. We don't get to choose whether we're born to a particular race, gender or location.
All we can do is make the best from what we have. According to you, ultimately it won't matter what the individual does. You judge entirely by the collective.
You say that your judgment in this argument is shaped by "crossing swords with people who possess your incredible mindset for over ten years now, and I have a fair idea of their group motivations."

You've already lost this argument, you're just spouting your hatred of people who've disagreed with you in the past.

And I don't pretend to hold the moral high ground. I'll just say flat out, that in this case I hold it.

3) You're starting to make a semblance of a decent argument, but everything you state hinges on the notion that this is inevitable if you import certain ethnic groups.

What is it you think built the United States?
Whatever happened to the old 'bring us your poor, your huddled masses?'

I tend to think that in the past, the US had an excellent way of making migrants feel American first, with their original nation second. They had an excellent system of integration, precisely because they were so accepting.
They used that to build the most successful nation in world history.

It was you who decided what attitudes rednecks have, yet you now object to me doing the same with leftist Shiities like yourself.

Successful white societies were also built upon racial and religious discrimination. In Britain, Catholics were once considered to be such a threat to the existence of Protestantism, that Catholics were prevented from holding government office, and Catholic squires were prevented from voting until 1831. Here in Australia, the White Australia Policy protected white Protestant European culture from submergence in Asian culture. If I were to ask you whether aboriginal, Japanese, black African, Vietnamese, or Muslims should protect and celebrate their own culture, I have no doubt that you would gushingly agree to that idea. The only culture that people of your perfidious ilk wish to destroy is the successful culture of the white Prots.

Regardless of whether a person chooses the culture they identify with, or not, the fact remains that the key to understanding any person’s behaviour is to understand their culture. The most reliable indicators of any person’s cultural values, is their physical ethnic identifying characteristics and their skin colour.

In the “great melting pot” of the USA, people still call themselves “African Americans”, “Italian Americans”, “Lebanese Americans” and “Native Americans”. For almost all of humanity, a person’s ethnic or racial origin is very important to their sense of identity, and all of these groups openly display their need to separate themselves from others, and from white “Americans”. What has resulted is the creation of numerous ethnic ghettoes, some of whom are demanding that their own languages be the lingua franca in their own particular areas. It has also resulted in “white flight”, where productive white people flee the consequences of multiculturalism, which includes urban decay and very high crime rates.

The dangers to national unity of the USA was brought home when the former Mexican President began bragging about “La Reconquistinada” (the Reconquest”) of the USA through immigration. With Hispanic population proportions so high in Southern US states, it may only be a matter of time before these states vote to rejoin Mexico.