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The Forum > Article Comments > They're not really that poor > Comments

They're not really that poor : Comments

By Peter Saunders, published 1/11/2007

The welfare lobby persists in producing wildly exaggerated and misleading reports about the size of our poverty problem.

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hi to all the forgotten australians and hope we are all still doing the best we can question to col rouge check all the comments ive posted and start reading them page by page as you stated in one of those comments that you were employed by the goverment body of the corrective services so don't talk _hit , and lie , im fighting for justice not only for my self but that of the forgotten australians of which i tabled in the court case also that of my own past criminal history of which their is no stone unturned of my life as i have nothing to hide of my past not like the pedophiles that that of the goverment has been covering up for that worked for the goverment run institutions of australia , and i ask all of you that read what i write look back in those stories and you will see where col rouge says he worked for a goverment organization and that of some of his faimly , for you frank gol i am a person that would aid some one that needed help in todays life ,as i have made mistakes in my life of the past and have became a better person,and did my punisment ,yet don;t forget i was once placed in the juvenille justice institutional system at the age of ten ,at 14 i was repeatedly raped by two (2) pedophiles daruk boys home 1977/1978, now 45 been fighting for justice since 1997 ,im no longer being the silent person as the goverment of australia has been wanting us victims to be ,ive told the truth as to what happend to me as child and don't any of you bother telling me to get over it either,as that will happend when justice is given to all of us forgotten australians not just me ,thats poverty
Posted by huffnpuff, Sunday, 2 December 2007 7:33:34 PM
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FrankGol ”If, one dark night, you were bashed, robbed and left for dead, and someone like Huffnpuff came along while you lay bleeding, dazed and bewildered, what would you like them to do or say to you?”

What I might like them to do would be “speculative”.

I cannot control what huffnpuff would or should do.

I can only “control” what I would do, if the roles were reversed.

I would initially offer comfort, then determine what medical assistance was needed. I would use my mobile phone to call 000 and stay until all the emergency services required were attending / managing the situation.

I always find it easier to state what I would do, rather than speculate or presume the actions of others.

Huffnpuff “that you were employed by the goverment body of the corrective services so don't talk _hit , and lie ,”

I was - but not as the “administrative staff” which you labelled me.

I would comment, I am not responsible for any of the bad acts which you seem to presume I have knowledge of. Nor I am responsible for any acts, good or bad, which have been done by my family members who are also familiar with the prison system.

Btw my family members include some who work in “uniform”, some who work in prison but not in “uniform” and some who were “locked in” at night.

I accept no responsibility for the meanness and wrongful actions of others, just as I accept no credit for the generosity and graciousness of others.

As for “im no longer being the silent person”

I too would never be silent, should I have been so unfortunate as to have walked in your shoes.

However, ultimately, whatever you seek from government will never replace or repair the damage done to you by the assaults you claim were enacted upon you.

The only thing which will ultimately resolve that will be when you have climbed Maslow’s hierarchy sufficiently to be able to forgive or forget those who perpetrated the wrongful acts against you.

That is real “wealth”.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 3 December 2007 1:20:58 PM
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Col Rouge

I notice how you've deflected your answer - again. You can't say how you would like someone else to treat you - because you can't speculate about others, but only say what you would do.

This solipsism is a fatal flaw in your thinking. When you go to hospital, you don't ask the staff to take due care in their treatment? Most of us would presume it and be really annoyed if we were let down.

You don't support laws that require a duty of care to others? You wouldn't expect the police to tell you what the charges are against you if they arrested you? You can only say what you would do and have no presumption about how others would or should act?

Why do you correspond on OLO if you can't influence other people's opinions?

Clearly you exhibit a contradiction between what you say you do and what you actually do. For example, you presume to tell Huffnpuff to aspire higher up Maslow's ladder of needs so that he can be able to forgive or forget those who perpetrated the wrongful acts against him.

I think your emotional hard macho line is a giant self-deception. You just can't face the prospect that people will think you care. Compassion for others is not all that frightening.
Posted by FrankGol, Monday, 3 December 2007 2:43:11 PM
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FrankGol “When you go to hospital, you don't ask the staff to take due care in their treatment”

There is a contractual duty of care when I enter hospital, there is no basis for a duty of care with a passerby only the compassion of the individual and I cannot speculate on that.

As for “solipsism”

I could hardly suffer such condition and write here – only to answer myself.

Your attempt to predict and judge the actions of others is a significantly deeper “solipsistic” indulgence.

I am sure whatever mental twists I might be capable of, my "solipsitic imagination" could not extend to inventing you.

“I think your emotional hard macho line is a giant self-deception.”

More speculaton of how I think to myself. Either remarkable insight or mysticism or plain old judgmentalism (I think the latter).

“You just can't face the prospect that people will think you care. Compassion for others is not all that frightening.”

Compassion is a virtue, so is modesty (I try to deploy both equally) and so is honesty.

Honesty means “telling it how it is”. To say less is almost as bad as lying.

Without pretending to be a psychologist, I can guarantee, Huffnpuff will find no peace or real resolution in pursuing his court case. His injury is not the sort of thing which can ever be resolved, repaired or compensated for by law or statute.

The monkey he carries on his back was placed there by the people who abused him.

In his post he cries out to be relieved of that burden but he is seeking resolution along the wrong course. A court, even if he wins, will not lift the monkey off his back.

Only Huffnpuff can let the monkey go. That does not mean forgetting about it but it does mean resolving how to “deal with it” emotionally.

I would suggest a good grief or similar counsellor will do more than any court of law. I say this because they have worked for me in the past.
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 10:17:29 AM
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Col Rouge

Yes I am indeed speculating on how you think. And you are probably right to say that it's "plain old judgmentalism".

So what kind of statement is this of yours: "...I can guarantee, Huffnpuff will find no peace or real resolution in pursuing his court case. His injury is not the sort of thing which can ever be resolved, repaired or compensated for by law or statute"?

Not "plain old judgmentalism", I hope?

Perhaps "remarkable insight" or "mysticism"?
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 4:36:57 PM
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Col Rouge wrote:

"The only thing which will ultimately resolve that will be when you have climbed Maslow’s hierarchy sufficiently to be able to forgive or forget those who perpetrated the wrongful acts against you.

"That is real 'wealth'."

In fact, that is, unfortunately how all too many who do succeed in climbing Maslow's hierarchy seem to behave, that is to 'forgive' and 'forget' past unconscionable acts against themselves whilst the perpetrators are left to do the same to others.

If, instead, a few more were to turn around and help the victims stand up to the same people who bullied them in the past we would have a considerably better society.

---

Peter Saunders, as usual, has made only a cursory pretence of responding to his critics whilst ignoring the abundant evidence which shoots gaping holes in his central argument.

I am not sure if I would have stated my objection to the CIS with the words that Saunders has put in my mouth: the 'CIS is just a mouthpiece for the capitalist class.'

However, to learn of the insidious role that think tanks like the CIS, have played since their intellectual founder Milton Friedman worked with the murderous Pinochet dictatorship to impose upon on the defenceless Chilean people the same political program that Saunders would impose on Australia, I suggest that others read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" (RRP $AU32.95) which is hard to praise too highly (see http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/reviews http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/2204).

In this we learn, amongst almost countless other unconscionable acts, of the last act in Friedman's appalling career, that was to exploit the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina to impose his neo-liberal program of privatisation of the education system and public housing on its victims (see http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2007/10/29/monday-message-board-93/#comment-199501).

In 1980, when President Reagan began to implement the polices that Saunders advocates, CEOs earned 43 times what the average worker earned. By 2005 it was 411 times (p444).

That is why the CIS is so well funded by powerful business interests and why Saunders is paid to churn out deceptive nonsense such as this article.
Posted by daggett, Wednesday, 5 December 2007 1:52:12 AM
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