Why not just get straight to the point and say that the real problem in the "reconciliation agenda" is that it's not about what is in the Constitutional preamble or the law, but about bridging the differences between Aboriginal and Western culture. Westerners have traditionally been more interested in things like intellectual development, while Aboriginals have been interested in tribal life, which is essentially about survival and anything other than human development. These two attitudes are worlds apart. Until people start addressing this division (which is pretty huge), the whole reconciliation agenda is a bit of a joke and just spawns competing academics to square off against each other.

I saw Difference of Opinion last night and thought that the speakers were just following down their same well-worn ideological paths. One of the speakers made some sense when he said that Aboriginals need to help themselves and essentially work with like-minded individuals to get practical outcomes.

There is an added complication that uneducated Aboriginals who may want to reconcile with white society don't, because they know they'll feel humiliated; while whites don't want to have anything to do with Aboriginals because they see them as uncultured losers. The only way to overcome this is for black and white people to sit down together as equals and work things out. This is the nub of reconcilaition. No one on the show had the guts to say this. As long as the academics continue to control the agenda and skate around the real solutions to the issue, we'll solve none of today's problems.

If you read Howard's address to the Sydney Institute, nothing in his agenda has changed. There is no death-bed conversion, not even a positive gesture in the hope of clawing back some lost electoral ground. Howard wants to use the Preamble to further his goal of mainstreaming traditional communities. I haven't got space here, but see my blog http://mike-servethepeople/2007/10/howards-constitutional-reconciliation.html if you're interested. Beware geeks bearing rifts, I say!

I'd be surprised if anyone can honesty view this move by Howard without any skepticism. It's clearly a move to distract voters from the dismal political failure of the NT intervention. He's using this symbolic gesture to create the appearance that he considers the issue important, while because the preamble is merely symbolic he isn't risking the support of the big land holders and users.

"In Howard speak, this means he will not touch the right of his government to legally discriminate against a group of people on the basis of race."

If Howard did take such steps, it would be the end of all the indigenous welfare (eg AbStudy) and could potentially leave Aboriginals much worse off.

The intervention by the government is the single most distressing thing i have ever seen in the Howard Reign.

it is not the 1950's, this is the same philosiphy that caused the stolen generation to occur:

"they cant look after themselves so we better look after them"

It is deplorable that in 2007 mainstream Australia allows this to occur.

In any other country in the world this 'intervention' would be viewed with disgust and with contempt. Indigenous peoples need to protest not here in Australia, but overseas just like the tibetans and the falon gong. If worldwide attention was captured the Aussie government would face serious consequences and be labelled hipocrites in regards to human rights etc.

No person or authority has the right to control another person's finances, intervene with the raising of their children and the like on the cop out pretext that it is to save the younger generation from molestation and the like.

I put it to you all that it is the socioeconomics and location more than the race that has anything to do with any problems in the communities. So to use race as a pretext and the determining factor is an absolute disgrace. Havent we grown up at all as a nation in the last 50 years?

This is a crime and all Australians should be ashamed of what our government is doing.

Realist says Australia should be ashamed at what the government is doing.
I thought the real shame would have been in letting the toxic conditions in which women and children are dreadfully abused ,go on.
And the activists who know all about the conditions are prepared to let the people suffer so they can wallow in symbolism to suit their own egos.
How about THEY apologise to all those suffering community members and the kids who grow up abused, uneducated and untrained for any future life.
That is where the apologies should come from.

"Difference of Opinion" last night was the last straw for me. I will no longer support any government policies that continue to keep these people either back in the stone age or separate from the rest of the country. If they wish to continue their mythical "traditional lifestyle" they must do it without taxpayer's money.

The only one of them who had anything productive to add was Sue Gordon. She was the only one who had actual experience on the ground.

The other three were just fakes. All on the government tit, earning HUGE salaries and contribute nothing positive. All Tom Calma could do is quote chapter and verse from irrelevant obscure UN statements. The UN has nothing to do with this issue. Why are our taxes paying this man?

Lotitja O'Donohue She is the only person I have ever encountered who thinks having an honorary doctorate entitles her to laud it over others as though she has actually completed a Ph.D, when she hasn't. She is just a bitter hateful Old Woman with a low IQ. The number of lies and fantasies she spun last night was just tragic.

Olga is just another hugely paid woman addicted to victimhood.

It is time we told these people, either join us or you're on your own.

Rubbish claims Australia Constitution imbued with racist intent.

Federation, again 1967, clear intent Australian desire all Australians treated as equals, equals in rights and responsibilities, regardless their racial identification.

Const_s.51(xxvi) races power enabled Commonwealth to control immigration of persons not Australians on grounds of race.

At Federation many Australians concerned employers import cheap labour (British Subjects around world) so to force down our growing living standards.

Responsibility for racial qualification of rights or responsibilities rests with Parliaments passing laws claiming it was lawful to so act.

Far more serious responsibility upon Justices High Court for holding as lawful such racist behaviour.

High Court Justices ignoring their judicial duties, their responsibility to Sovereign Power - the People of Australia, ignoring clear aim vast majority Australians for all Australians be treated equally regardless of their racial ancestry.

People of Australia 1967 voted NOT to widen opportunity for Federal Parliament to practice racism, they voted to extinguish, to ban all claim legislative support to such behaviour.


ALR(NT) amending legislation IF proclaimed will allow Traditional Owners, Aboriginals, anyone living in communities to invite guests into their homes without needing permit, like any other place in Australia.

IF proclaimed will NOT require obtain permit per Land Councils for their family to invite to live with or visit them in their homes.


Warren Snowdon MHR Lingiari plans undo these changes if Labor elected.

Snowdon MHR objects to Traditional Owners, Aboriginals, people obtaining valid leases for their homes, as leases gives them some rights !

Snowdon MHR supports segregation, seperation of familes on racial grounds.

Mal Brough (ABC)
"Let's just allow people to hide behind the permit system. Let's just allow thugs to use it yet again to keep people out, or to threaten people with expulsion."

http://www.alicespringsnews.com.au

Support Human Rights not Racial Rights

Howard or Rudd's words change every now and then in line with their deepening treachery. And now election time is here and the politicians will be 'friends to all people.' Their minders advise them, "throw up some nice rhetoric to catch the votes." Its only words that can be retracted - after the elections. As well, they usually like to disarm people with nice words before their real intentions are unleashed. Labor and Liberal rule through deceit, fear, and intimidation. But the historical record is objective, two hundred years of devastation, oppression, innequality and murderous genocide heaped on aboriginal people - which emerges through different forms.
The recent police-military intervention into the Northern Territory carried out through the suspension of the 1975 Racial Discrimination Act—is a hideous assault on the democratic rights of the Aboriginal people. Its aim is not the well-being of Aboriginal children, but to force communities off potentially lucrative land. To take back from overseas and dump on aboriginal land semi-spent nuclear waste. To force aboriginal workers into a very cheap labor force for the mining and pastoral industries. As well, to set a precedent for slashing welfare for the entire working class.

If the Aboriginal people were a more advanced civilisation they would have been more able to cope with the dramatic changes of the last 200 yrs.
Anyone who lives in survival situation has no time for learning or develop civilisation.The reality is that they are a stone age culture and do need special consideration;however is it right to destroy them with sit down money and not insist that they contribute to the mainstream culture in some way?

John Howard's symbolic inclusion of their culture in the constitution was ill timed and pointless.

There is a left wing white hyprocracy in regards to race.In both American and Australian media,there are very few full blooded Black Africans or Aboriginals who represent their race.Most have only a hint of their originality to make them more palitable to a wider audience.

Sydney Portier was one of the few really dark Africans who displayed exceptional talent.The problem for most people of very dark skin is that their facial expressions are very difficult to detect on the screen and we lose the subtle nuances.Hence you will see mostly semi-black skinned people performing on our media.

Life is not fair,but we need to understand the reasons for cultural/genetic differences and accept the harsh reality.

Arjay: "Sydney Portier was one of the few really dark Africans who displayed exceptional talent.The problem for most people of very dark skin is that their facial expressions are very difficult to detect on the screen and we lose the subtle nuances.Hence you will see mostly semi-black skinned people performing on our media."

Dear oh dear. I guess you'd be offended if I suggested that this is one of the most appallingly and obviously racist opinions I've seen posted in this forum - and that's saying something!

Howard's latest stunts with respect to Indigenous Australians have to be some of the most cynical political backflips we've ever seen in an election campaign. Lowitja's absolutely correct - who'd trust the 'Lying Rodent', as one of his own party described him?

I mean besides people like those who post offensive tripe like that quoted above.

I view the current NT intervention as flagrant opportunism: mounted by the current Federal Government to provide the images of success: where the Iraq and Afghanistan theatres of war have clearly not delivered.

Howard's latest thoughts will be of historical interest only.

Let's blame the Greens! Why didn't they do something?

Reckon our Aborigines would certainly be far happier if us newer Aussies broke all ties to the still imperialist Brits and gave our deepest apologies to the more dinkum owners of the Great Southland as well as at last granting them as with the NZ Maories permanent non-elected and non-partisan representation in any elected Australian government from now on.

Surely its about time, and reckon any Aussie that does not agree, should be shot back to Britannia or wherever they they relate to.

Cheers - BB, Mandurah, WA.

Oh Bushbred you legend.... well said

The Brits introduce an illegal law (based on total falsehoods) terra nullius and steal the great South Land.... Yep Thou shalt not steal! Thou shalt not covert they neighbours property! We sure are a Christian country!

We virtually wipe them out with the common cold, the gun, starvation and all manner of ugliness ... Yep OOzing Christianity there! "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

In Queensland we even steal their wages.... Yep Thou shalt not steal again!

And what? we can't say sorry to them or give them a fair go... OOps I thought "a fair go" was an Australian value!

We introduce "fire water" to them "beer and other grog" again to destroy their culture and we still can't say sorry!

Every Aussie should be so proud of every indigenous Australian.

Here they were nestled in their own little part of paradise (I wonder if they thought they were in the lucky country)... still never having needed to be anything more than stone age man, living at one with the land, and we expect them to come up to our ways in just over 200 years?

Captain Cook's first order when landing at Botany Bay was to shoot an aborigine... "Thou shalt not kill"

If it is so easy to just change... why don't some of you non-racist? aborigine criticisers go bush by yourself without guns. tents etc. and survive in the outback... You expect rpid change from the aborigine... lets see you do it in reverse. Oh the outback is a long walk... don't die on the way!

On behalf of ALL Australians (yes even the non-apologetic ones) I apologise profusely for what we have done to our aboriginal brothers.

May the Lord have mercy on our souls and especially John Howards soul. If the way you think doesn't get you to think about your Christianity then you probably aint a Christian!

The arguments as to whose side of history is correct does little to rectify the current appalling state of aboriginal affairs. I suspect strongly that their is a little truth and lies on all sides. To pretend that all tribes were living here in some sort of harmony before white man arrived is one of those lies. I have sat with many elderly aborigines who contradict this 'harmony' theory. Noel Pearson appears to be one of the finest leaders that we have in this country. May be we should listen to him instead of using this issue to again demonstrate our hate and anger at Mr Howard. If an apology is going to stop one child being abused or one suicide I would be the first to apologise. Even the Howard haters know that this would not be the case.

Oh runner there you go weaving your own little brand of Christianity... runneranity ...lmao

What would Jesus do? runner

So you won't say sorry because of what that it won't save a child from being abused... Are you for real?

Turn a blind eye to the other 200 years of pain runner... good for you... Do you have any Christian values?

Of course it wasn't harmonious runner... it was like all over the world... the aboriginal tribes had conflicts.... but lets not confuse that with the biggest threat to their existence that came... The Brits!

Come on runner let me see you "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"... Just say sorry... be brave it won't hurt! I say it is UnChristian not to... Are you really a Christian?... Your day of judgement is here... Be careful your maker is watching!

Oh by the way I don't hate John Howard I just think he lies and is unChristian also...lmao

In my OPEN LETTER to Mr Howard concerning governance or what's wrong with "development", I talk about a lack of "glue".

This "glue" is the quality of engagement, the cultural human understanding that is missing from the government system in general. It is the thing most disturbing because even when they spend the MILLIONS, it gets lost by the lack of understanding in inter-relationships, thus the WASTE.

I don't just blame HOWARD. I blame all who work in adminsistrive governemnt services and who fail to transfer the potential benefits, by NOT engaging and building on local and regional capacity to a) empower, or b) stand up against what is wrong (in the workplace).

Silo cultures, closed systems - status struggles, bystanders and a disgraceful practice of inaction on "good inclusive policy" is RANK throughout Australia's services. It is distorying the best part of our combined intelligence in Australia.

Bottle-necked with regional and local individual comfort zones, a lack of imagination and collaberation has resulted in a breakdown that is shrinking ground level communities. Those rural and isolated are left in crisis.

On miacat.com, I have a number of sugestive papers. One about CANDOO (NGO) where CANDOO stuggles and wants the intervention of a trustwothy GOVERNMENT CHAMPION. (DARE TO CARE)

By example it is a true story and possibly a final straw for Howard. I named Cooktown as Australia's first Administration and asked 'DO WE HAVE A PROBLEM'? (Local Council Reform campaign)

http://www.miacat.com/Media_Pan_One/REGIONAL_Pacific_News/Local_Cape_York/New_campaign/Do_We_Ck_Letter_Open.asp

YES it is a typical LOCAL RANT. I use my role and experience with CANDOO (NGO) to demonstrate the debilitating - lack of glue ... expressing the wider nullifying issue over seven years of persistence.

We have 28% unemployement here in Cooktown/Cape York and the Candoo story gives some background on how all the innovation - skill and social capitial in the world is reduced to disorganisation when those in the system fail to connect.

This I say is the impact of silo.

It is a depleting humanity.

http://www.miacat.com
.

Opinionated,

You obviously aren’t aware of the Noble savage myth as your recent post is full of similar romantic nonsense about the Aborigines.

“Every Aussie should be so proud of every indigenous Australian” Are you joking?
Mate we should be proud of people who have done something worth being proud of, whatever their colour. Championing EVERY Aborigine because of their race is just reverse racism. Aboriginal people don’t need your feelgood stupidity, they need real policies which will allow them the same access to the things most white Australians take for granted, like equality, education, health care, employment and home ownership.

Noel Pearson is one of the finest leaders Aboriginal Australians have ever had. He's had the courage to say the unpalatable things which needed to be said. Alcohol, unemployment and passive welfare are destroying aboriginal communities. They are the fruits of 20 years of failed leftist policy in Aboriginal affairs. Radical change was required and hopefully we will see results but the problems are long term and are not going to be solved overnight.

Communities where there is no employment cannot continue to exist. Its not whether we can afford to maintain aborigines in their pre settlement way of life, it’s whether Aboriginal communities themselves can survive if they continue to live in this way. It seems you find it hard to tell the difference between a critique of Aboriginal policy and straight out criticism of aborigines

Whilst I am no fan of Howard, the ‘Little Children are sacred’ report uncovered shocking and long ignored abuse of Aboriginal children. Something had to be done and the NT gov’t had presided over the appalling state of affairs without doing anything for far too long. Yet all the left can bleat about is the symbolism of who’s in charge. The federal gov’t has a responsibility to all Australian children, black white or brindle. Stepping on a few bureaucrats toes is hardly too high a price to pay for children’s safety.

.
Bushbred,

You really don’t care for democracy do you? Permanent non elected representation? Who decides who gets the job? You?

Its not clear if megan davis or susan prior who edited article coined phrase 'the symbolism isn't bad, but the hypocrisy and cruelty are'...but it must cause an offence to all reasoning Austalians in that that is the very problem we deal with everyday and face a unscaleable wall to see the reality of any relevant issue in its full context...

Yep...usual blame of 'howard and law'...lack of address to conduct/standard/accountability to 'government' that implements laws in the region aka crown...and 'experts' on issue most the closest they have came to daily reality of 'issue' is reading about it while sipping tea in comfy chair while scratching itch on the large belly...

Who actually knows what effect the intervention resulted in so far on the ground...I dont and been searching for this information...surely any responsible media would have witnessed the before/now reality and provided a unbiased factual reporting by now, including all relevant issues that go to cause the problem/solution, for if the aboriginal children_and I mean children...and not women or men or aunties...are little safer now as a result of intervention...then we all should be supporting the initiative fully...

and megan...your article does not come anywhere close to supporting the tile, on assumption that you indeed did start article with that title...and by your lack of knowledge of reality of 'on the ground in aboriginal life' and which you should know before putting pen to paper...and critical view...firstly makes you a 'destructive' element and worse...detrimentally affecting all the 'constructive'/good individual people on or near the problem areas struggling to bring about a balanced and sustainable solution to produce happy and healthy aboriginal children...

I would like to say 'shame on you'...but its not morality that drives you...and writting article...is it now...

Sam
Ps~megan how about packing your swag and spending week out there with them...certainly eye-opener to harsh reality they live in...and deeper understanding of some of the misery they feel and live with every day comes from...i have...they dont have their 'stable working culture' anymore...and banning alcohol goes long way to bringing this back to them...

"Westerners have traditionally been more interested in things like intellectual development, while Aboriginals have been interested in tribal life, which is essentially about survival and anything other than human development."

Absolutely correct. But then you go on to say that the only way to overcome this is "to sit down together as equals and work things out."

Aboriginals and mainstream Australians are not equals. You are literate, they are not. You are numerate and technologically sophisticated, they are not. So how is this dialog of equals going to happen?

To Drs. Luvvie wife, I've read stuff on the 'net by Lowitja O'Donohue and she does seem very stupid.

Look - when is mainstream Australia simply going to say, "we are sick of this stuff," and cut the whole Aboriginal Industry loose? Those who can make it, will, those who can't, won't. What's wrong with that? If this were Australia 10,000 years ago, and someone didn't hunt or gather, wouldn't the clan let them die? You bet they would.

You have no idea of who Megan is or what she knows and your high moral tone suggests you know better.

Just remember this little piece of wisdom young fella.

Whitefellas indulging in their own moral panic (and inferring that this is grassroots knowledge”) hardly counts for life experience and then its application to writing an opinion piece.

Yes I know it must make you feel good chastising an Aboriginal woman online for her opinion, but this says more about you than you appear to realize.

Its always amusing to us Murri's when whitefellas come along with quick solutions to problems they are so underqualified to make comment on beyond being white. But apparently for many (not all) this is all that’s required.

Any time you want to get out from behind your computer and put some life experience behind your big noter opinions, let me know.

Until then, S.T. F.U

CJ, I can't believe Arjay cited Sydney Piotier. OMG, i don't know whether to puke or die laughing, or both.

Pre 1967 the Commonwealth and the States both discriminated between Australians on the grounds of race.

In 1967 the People of Australia voted overwhelmingly to STOP ALL discrimination between Australians on the grounds of race, to make such discrimination unlawful.

Politicians interpret the 1967 referenda as widening their opportunities to practice racial discrimination between Australians.

The High Court has approved legislation discriminating between Australians on the grounds of race so ignoring its duty to the Sovereign Power for Australia - the Australian People, who amended their constitution with their acknowledged purpose the stopping of such practice.

Pre 1967 Australian families were seperated, segregated on basis of racial testing, post 1967 Australian families continue to be seperated, segregated on basis of racial testing.

Politicians constantly seek to widen opportunities for them to divide and rule... regardless of party.

.

Paul.L

Aborigines managed to survive "us" and what "we" did to them! You and I probably wouldn't have but they did. Many aborigines had the skills to re-locate in the harshest continent on Earth and survive despite all manner of obstacles!!Their communities are disarray because of "us"! Reverse racism what rot!

There a huge social and political benefits to the aborigine's if we state loudly we're proud of them and it opens our hearts to more progressive thinking.

I am willing to support Noel Pearson ... but let's not forget we created the problems! Aborigines have had just over 200 years to change.

Our pride in aborigines will hopefully allow them slowly develop a greater feeling of self worth! Punish the offenders within their communities absolutely, end the grog and work with them to find viable solutions but do it in White Australian communities also!

Can't you see that their survival alone is a massive achievement?

Systematic abuses of people in Churches happened but we haven't sent in teams of police to troll their records to bring offenders to justice, we haven't attempted to find all the abuse victims within these other groups for treatment.Why the double standards?

Don't get me wrong... all scumbags who hurt anyone in society should be placed before the courts... Was an Ex Governer General/Archbishop forced to resign for his lack of action on these matters and did the Govt intervene to protect the other victims of the church? Did they hold a Govt enquiry? Did the Police immediately raid church premises?

If we are going to stamp out this sort of evil we have to have pro-active approaches... but we have to do it in all organisations & groups as soon as we become aware of it... regardless of colour and without fear or favour!

Let's see us do that and I will accept that we are responding correctly.

I am proud of all aborigines that they survived the lawlessness that our forebears used and I apologise for all that we have done to them over the years!

Opinionated2: "Many aborigines had the skills to re-locate in the harshest continent on Earth and survive despite all manner of obstacles! ... Their communities are disarray because of "us"! Reverse racism what rot!"

Your attitude is fundamentally racist. An 'aboriginal' child growing up in the city today, with the same resources as an average 'white' child will have achieved nothing exceptional, yet according to you they're exceptional simply because they're 'aboriginal'. A young 'white' child growing up today is completely innocent of the actions that harmed the aboriginals, yet you claim they are to blame simply because they are 'white'. Fundamentally racist.

"I am proud of all aborigines that they survived the lawlessness that our forebears used and I apologise for all that we have done to them over the years!"

*I* have not done anything to aborigines so *I* have nothing to apologise for. Yes, what was done in the past was wrong, and yes, their current situation is far from ideal, but we need to focus on moving forward with solutions to the problems rather than focusing on laying blame for past actions.

Paul.L: "Communities where there is no employment cannot continue to exist."

I think this says it all. Too much focus on the colour of their skin, and not enough focus on the practical reality of the unsustainable nature of these 'communities'.

Um no Desipis your attitude is fundamentally mindless...

Do they have the same resources Desipis?... Do you have any idea?

You have done things to aborgines Desipis... Are you smart enough to guess what?

I never blamed white children... I blamed us... Australia... Yes anyone over 18 probably ... we vote and therefore we get a say in what happens to aborigines... Didn't you realise your vote ties you to a Government and the actions of that Government...

We are at war in Iraq... I didn't go and fire a bullet but we (Australia) are at war! Think a bit before you throw the racist word around buddy... You can think can't you?

What made aboriginals living in the outback unsustainable... they have done it for between 20,000 and 60,000 years? People who say it is unsustainable are sort of a bit thick really. What you are really saying if they can't live as traditional aborigines then we had better move them on... easy to say... we've been saying it for nearly 200 years.

We Imported Aussies broke their culture... and so they are a bit lost at the moment, 200 years to be dragged screaming into industrialised world isn't long... Hopefully they don't have to become white to get your approval...

But please get past the "It's not my fault" mentality ... this problem need more intellectual thinking than that...

So next time you vote... try thinking... hey my vote means I am accepting responsibilty for my Governments actions.. That How to vote for dummies 101! You had better think about the issues!

Gee in 2008 we might just put them in the pre-amble of the constitution... Yep that'll solve the problems!

Keep thinking bright spark...lmao

Opinionated,

Why would you exclude white children from your wall of shame? Most of the real damage done to aboriginal society was perpetrated by generations long gone. So how, exactly, can anyone over the age of 18 be held responsible? Your rather simplistic analogy of Australian society’s responsibility for the war in Iraq is totally irrelevant. Australians today are responsible for their own actions, not for the actions of our forebears. And voting for the opposition doesn't make you responsible for the actions of the gov't.

This should not prevent us from acknowledging the damage and pain that has been inflicted on Aboriginal society and offering our regrets that they took place. But fundamentally this is a symbolic act which will make little difference to anyone. I am not against it, I just don’t believe it will be of much benefit. However it is typical of the hand wringing lefty to get caught up over issues of style before substance

You clearly haven’t been to any of the large number of tiny, remote aboriginal communities which are disintegrating around them. Whether Aborigines lived in a particular way for 40 000 years is totally irrelevant to solving the problems of today. Small, remote Aboriginal communities without real employment are completely unsustainable. The cost of providing the same level of health care, education, policing and all the rest of the services we take for granted in tiny outback villages cannot be met.

In any case many remote aboriginal communities and plenty of city communities too, are being torn apart by alcoholism, violence, abuse and neglect. Employment is one of the vital missing factors. The sad fact is that a traditional life is just not a possibility for most aboriginal communities even if they wanted it.

The gov’t, with help from Noel Pearson, made the correct realisation that aboriginal children are the future and their health, education and safety are as precious as every other Australian child. These elements are the basics which are required in order to give every aboriginal child access to the opportunities many white children take for granted.

PaulL:

I'm directing this to you because, although you have a rational grip on the issues, even you are wallowing in white guilt. Get over it, there is nothing to be guilty about. Your ancestors did nothing to the Aborigines except come in contact with them.

The reason the Aborigines survived in Australia for 50K+ years is simple: they had no competition. Once they were confronted with a more dynamic and inventive group of people, their lifestyle collapsed. Deep down, they know this is true, and the repression causes many problems in integrating them to modernity.

Their unnaturally long isolation made them uniquely vulnerable to endemic diseases introduced (by Macassan fishermen, then Europeans), which caused a huge die-off. This was entirely unintentional and happened in all other parts of the world - are Aborigines exempt from natural selection?

The survival of Aborigines is no mystery. The epidemics survivors were helped by humanitarian measures and then mostly intermarried with whites. The grandchildren of these interracial unions have grown up with huge resentment issues. They need mainstream jobs, which will pay for the psychotherapy they obviously need, not coddling.

Keeping fractional Aborigines completely cut off from the mainstream economy and supporting a guilt industry is poisonous to Australia. Subsidizing fake-Indigenous lawyers like Megan Davis* to spin browbeating fantasies destroys the foundations of a healthy society. Middle Australia thought that buying them off would satisfy them - it has done nothing of the sort. Their appetite for revenge is simply ravenous.

While the Australian economy is humming along, this is economically sustainable, but when a recession comes, what parent will allow his tax dollars to be drained off to a voracious group of beggars who refuse to respond to any inducement?

Maybe nothing that I've said here is news to you - all I'm saying is, it's time to start taking care of your own. They'll respond, or they won't. Their choice.

*I looked up Megan Davis' picture on the net - If she's an Aborigine, I'm Pocohontas.

Spare us the uninformed pontifications of an American racist - heaven knows we have enough of our own to deal with!

lizz-the-yank,

"Aboriginals and mainstream Australians are not equals. You are literate, they are not. You are numerate and technologically sophisticated, they are not. So how is this dialog of equals going to happen?"

There's two ways to look at this: on an individual level and on a group level. As an individual, anyone can act in a reconciliatory way toward anybody, including toward Aboriginals. And it can be done without compromising one's personal standards. It's just a case of treating them fairly and with basic good manners. It doesn't mean you have to become like them though.

What you're talking about is a dialogue at a group level, which is very hard and slow to change, of course. However, this can and will eventually change when a critical mass of individual dialogue is reached. (It should go hand-in-hand with sifting out the good from the bad in both cultures and only keeping the good).

Opinionated2,

"You have done things to aborgines Desipis... Are you smart enough to guess what?"

Really? Please tell me how I have managed to wrong an entire race of people.

"Didn't you realise your vote ties you to a Government and the actions of that Government... "

So how many aborigines has the government slaughtered, enslaved or stolen land from in the past decade?

"What you are really saying if they can't live as traditional aborigines then we had better move them on... "

Their traditional lifestyle is obviously sustainable. What is unsustainable is wanting to live that lifestyle plus have all the modern conveniences: power, running water, tv, booze, etc. If the best course of action is to integrate these isolated aboriginals with mainstream Australia, then it needs to be done in the spartial as well as financial sense. They can't live out in the middle of nowhere and expect others to fund endless services for them. At what point is does their situation become their own responsibility? I think the fishing metaphor is quite applicable: we need to stop just giving them fish and start actually teaching them how to fish for themselves.

"Hopefully they don't have to become white to get your approval..."

I certainly don't care what the colour of their skin is. What I object to is giving them government money simply because of it. Help them because they're poor. Help them because they're uneducated. Help them because they're sick. But don't help them just because they're 'aboriginal'.

"But please get past the "It's not my fault" mentality ... this problem need more intellectual thinking than that... "

This problem needs to move past the blame game and on to practical solutions.

Rob,

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you, but I doubt that treating individuals fairly and courteously is going to cut any ice with the professional Aboriginals and their white enablers who control this debate.

For example, in another article on this forum, by Stephen Hagan, he actually claimed that Aborigines have psychic powers that non-Aboriginals do not. If you think I am kidding, read the article. When I expressed skepticism of this alleged power, I was shouted down and called a racist. (Take a look.) And he teaches at a university! (Not the most prestigious, but still...)

How do you communicate with people who claim they have psychic powers (presumably genetically endowed), and you do not? How do you communicate with their white enablers? How do you fight the orthodoxy that has grown up around this kind of nonsense?

On a more mundane level, since the very problem is that Aborigines aren't part of the mainstream, how does this one-to-one kindness and courtesy happen?

lizz,

Fair points. It's true that you can often "lead a horse to water but not make it drink". And that goes for people on both sides. The best anyone can do is to stay vigilant and watch for any opportunities that open up for reconciliation. I'm fairly confident that this will eventually happen as people's awareness of the issue continues to build.

bushbred: "Reckon our Aborigines would certainly be far happier if us newer Aussies broke all ties to the still imperialist Brits and gave our deepest apologies to the more dinkum owners of the Great Southland..."

"Newer Aussies"? There was no such thing as 'Australia' until the British colonised this continent and developed it into a nation. And as much as the self-appointed leaders of the Aboriginal grievance industry would hate to admit it, they are as much a product of European civilisation as the rest of us. Indeed, the arrival of Europeans allowed the disparate Aboriginal tribes to form a common identity, forged by the 'shared' history of opposition to European settlement.

To Liz the Yank ,

As if we haven't imported enough problems !

Please take your shallow racist superiority with you and head back to

Mississippi to make excuses to the blacks there, who are battling to

survive and living in depression and poverty due to Republican neglect and apathy .

To the Doctor's wife ,

Perhaps you can talk the hubby into going up north to do a bit for our Aboriginal Brothers and Sisters. Now that would be positive .

Desipis

"Please tell me how I have managed to wrong an entire race of people" Firstly they aren't a race of people... the human race?

Is Australia at war in Iraq? Does that implicate you... Yes! Well the same when some of our brothers and sisters are living in poverty. It is our fault... and we need to work together to correct it.

Today at the shops I paid the end part of the grocery bill for a guy who was doing it tough... I didn't cause his plight but I saw that he was doing it tough and so I helped him. That is what Australians haven't done... we haven't helped them enough!

How many aborigines has the government slaughtered, enslaved or stolen land from in the past decade?

Is the premature death of aborigines, the fact that they live in intense poverty and we continue to hold their lands from the original theft a problem for you? Well premature death is like slaughter, poverty is enslavement and the loss of their land and title is still theft.

Have you ever done it tough or been alcoholic? How did you take responsibility when you didn't have a cent to your name? How did you take responsibilty when drunk? You insist on them taking responsibility when we other Australians won't... double standard? Yep!

I agree we have to move past the blame game by taking responsibility for our part in the problems, apologising and working with them to solve it.

Again I ask did the police raid all the churches in a hunt for the creeps hidden within their communities?

Why do you have such double standards?

If you offer the hand of friendship, love, hope and apologise you will achieve results much faster than the methods we have tried. People seem to call compassion a leftist notion... what does that say about the people?

Why do you twist my words? I never said give them money because they are aboriginal... Help them because they're poor, because they're uneducated, because they're sick ... I agree with you...BUT help them!

Opinionated2: "Well the same when some of our brothers and sisters are living in poverty."

If you want to apologise to all those who are unfairly poor and destitute, all those who failed to get health care, then I'm sure you'll get much more support. Apologising to a race (aboriginals) of people unfairly leaves out all the other people who are disadvantaged. Why are some people more deserving of an apology than others, simply based on the colour of their skin?

"I agree we have to move past the blame game by taking responsibility for our part in the problems, apologising..."

Insisting people apologise IS the blame game.

"Why do you have such double standards?"

I don't. I'm suggesting that aboriginals be treated equally with all other Australians.

"Help them because they're poor, because they're uneducated, because they're sick ... I agree with you...BUT help them!"

I'm all for helping them. But apologising will only reinforce their victim mentality and keep the attitude they have of wanting everything served up on a silver platter. If they chose to maintain their ancestral way of life, then they need to accept the realities of that choice; the realities of limited education, limited health care, limited policing, limited housing, etc. If they want to claim the right to have the benefits of modern society then they need to accept the responsibilities too.

Some problems with helping the remote aboriginal communities:

Poverty - There is an on going culture of vandalism and destruction, they burn a house, or trash a car till it breaks and then complain they have inadequate housing or no transport.

Education - The above applies to the schools built for them, in addition many teachers have been driven out of the communities through violence.

Health - Both the above apply to medical centres and staff, in addition many are skeptical of doctors and will refuse treatment or examination.

There are no easy fixes for these problems. Attempts to enact the one thing that needs to happen, change in their way of life, will seen as attempting to destroy their culture.

Desipis ...

Why are some people more deserving of an apology than others, simply based on the colour of their skin?

This is becoming infantile - Study what white people did to aborigines over time ... and continue to do.. It has nothing to do with the colour of their skin... why do you keep bringing colour into it... Are you showing signs of latent racism?

Insisting on an apology isn't "the blame game" it is the right and Christian thing to do.... Are you a Christian? How do you increase equality when they are so disadvantaged... I want total equality... but I don't think you realise what that means. Have you had your lands taken from you by anyone? Solve that inequality for to ignore it is to fail!

Apologising will only re-inforce the victim mentality - what rot it will start the healiing! Not apologising proves they are victims! And we can't apologise!

The apology is a starting point... simple but true... that is why Howard said sorry in the debate.... He nearly choked on it... but the word sorry got out of his lips...

Poverty - Again whiteman has given them the wrong things... we made those choices and they didn't want houses and cars .. we thought they'd be good for them...

Education - Teach aboriginal culture better in our schools... expand the curriculum to be more inclusive ... Have our kids go on aboriginal camps... live the culture respect the culture and create jobs in the bush.

Health - And why are they so skeptical? You seem to generalise the remote aboriginals problems with all societies problems... just plain simplistic!

I apologise to every person in Australia who has been put at some disadvantage by an uncaring and uncompassionate Australia... I am sorry that we have done it to you!

Your turn! Ha!

Hooray to Liz the Yank who says it so right. The bleating heart cry buckets brigade who form the Anti White Aboriginal Industry would do anything to keep the status quo.
Otherwise why would they not have helped educate and train aboriginal youth years ago to take their proper place in Australian society? The so called "stolen generation" were the lucky ones, they at least got some education and training.
I hope the recent 'blitz' on the squalid camps does some good, it is about time this country stood up for the rights ,not of the activists, but the women and children.

How refreshing to see racists coming out and openly identifying themselves. As a Septic, you'd expect Liz to be full of faeces. Mickijo, what's your excuse? Get out on the ugly side of the bed this morning?

Opinionated2: "Study what white people did to aborigines over time..."

You're the one bringing race and colour into it.

"Insisting on an apology isn't "the blame game""

An apology is about accepting the blame for wrong doing. Insisting on an apology is insisting that someone is to blame. Insisting on an apology IS the blame game.

Poverty - If aboriginal communities don't need what we can actually offer how can we be to blame for their poverty? There is plenty of land where they can live their traditional lifestyles if they so choose.

Education - How is educating mainstream Australians going to help educate uneducated people in remote communities?

Health - Most Australians who don't accept conventional medicine don't turn around and complain to the government about their health.

"I apologise to every person in Australia who has been put at some disadvantage by an uncaring and uncompassionate Australia... I am sorry that we have done it to you!"

Wow, accepting responsibility for something that's not your fault. I'm sure their lives are better already.

“If successful, this would be a small, incremental step towards reconciliation because "unfinished business" between black and white Australia is far from over.”

I would suggest this displays the racist attitude of the author, who perceives there is still “unfinished business” between mainstream Australia and some folk some of whose ancestors happened to arrive here at some time before Captain Cook and the first fleet.

I would suggest inclusion within “mainstream Australia” is best observed by respect for the set of common laws we are all expected to observe, without excuse or exception because or ethnicity.

I know if I were to abuse children in my care, I would lose custody of them.

I know if I were to behave like a drunken lout or drug inebriated itinerant, I would find the police cautioning me and likely locking me up for my own safety.

I know to expect strings to be attached to any hand outs I might receive from government.

I know if I to want to find self-respect and self-worth, it starts by finding self accountability.

So, let us get it straight, there is no “unfinished business”.

It was resolved when this country was colonized by Britain, enshrined later in Federation and finally “finished” when “universal suffrage” was extended to all adults living within the Australian Commonwealth.

Lizz-the-Yank, “Keeping fractional Aborigines completely cut off from the mainstream economy and supporting a guilt industry is poisonous to Australia.”

I must agree.

However, do not be dissuaded from posting. Trolls like CJ Morgan do their feeble best to irritate but I found a modest application of tinea powder usually clears him up.

This man goes to the doctor with a bird on his head.
The doctor says:"what's the matter with you"?
The bird says:"there's something stuck to my rrrrr's"!

Crouge ducky; unfortunately I suspect that not even a flame thrower would clear YOU up.

It all depends on the way one looks at it, doesn't it?

"How refreshing to see racists coming out and openly identifying themselves. As a Septic, you'd expect Liz to be full of faeces."

Nice logic there, boy. I'm impressed.

Rob,

You have my sympathies, but from what I gather, the situation is too far gone for nice gestures. An industry based on an orthodoxy feeds on itself. Every Australian university has an "indigenous studies" department. These places are, essentially, factories for guilt-mongering and worse. The few Aboriginal kids who make it through a university course don't study the hard sciences or (heaven forbid) Dead White Euro Culture. They study this garbage.

For those of you who criticize me for contributing because I don't know any Aborigines, well, isn't that true of most white Australians? You can learn a lot on the 'net. For example, I learned that there are prosperous, vibrant country towns with diverse economies, such as Tamworth, with significant Aboriginal minorities. And the Aborigines in these towns have nothing to do with the mainstream economies - not even as entry level or menial workers!! While, on the other hand, these same unemployed kids get a full course of "Koori culture", complete with face-painting, "traditional dancing" (learned from a DVD?) and the study of dead, useless Aboriginal languages. This baffles me. Please explain. Perhaps I am getting the wrong idea from the 'net, in which case I would welcome clarification.

Liz the yank says "dead useless Aboriginal Languages".

I don't know why you would say that apart from unintentionally displaying a lack of knowledge , which is understandable, or more likely making mischief.

It IS a BIG problem that we know so little about them and their content. Translators are hard to find .

I learnt French at school and considered it useless, although I then appreciated their uniqueness. However I went overseas to where it was spoken and then found it very handy as a tool to communicate in a friendly and usefull way .

I would love to be able to speak a Central Australian language and use it with the locals to speak to them as equals and learn about their culture.

I will go one more and say that if "I was PM" the learning of a working Aboriginal Language and Culture would be compulsory in early and late school years .

This would be a positive attack on the racism that exists here and would be both practical and symbolic for Aboriginal and other Australians .

Lizz, you are making very sweeping generalisations there. Given that I know Tamworth reasonably well. Yes, there are reasonable proportions of disengaged minorities there. But to lump them all in the same category is extremely racist. There are plenty of aboriginal people in jobs, with decent housing, kids that go to school and a bright future. Being aboriginal doesnt = failure. Most white (or other-coloured) Aussie's might know very little about the problems within aboriginal society, other than what they glean from the Net and the media (both potentially wrong and biased anyway). Try listening to some of those that have lived in communities where there are aboriginal majorities (hint, there are some that have been posting on this thread and others), as well as the pretty well educated aboriginal posters on this forum.

Fact of the matter is that there were some pretty horrible things done to group of aboriginies in the past, a lot of which has resulted in the poor state of affairs today. Whether I feel the need/obligation to apologise or not, something needs to be done to bring a reasonable standard of living to these people IF THEY WANT IT. This is why I always advocate an individual approach, rather than generalist policy.

The problem is that there are no easy answers, and those that think there are, are idiots. Progress also takes time, so no-one should expect any outcomes from the Howard NT intervention for at least 5 years. If after 5 years there are no positive outcomes (or the negatices outweigh them), then the program could probably be said to have failed. Expecting significant change overnight is stupidity and amounts to the politicial point-scoring that those who indulge in this accuse Howard of. (PS I'm not supporting Howard or his party per se, but it annoys me to see the pot calling the kettle black)

Hey Col - I'm really a fun guy when you get to know me :)

What was it I said about us not needing the uninformed pontifications of an increasingly obviously racist American when we have enough of our own to deal with? Col proves my point exactly.

Perhaps Col could consider moving to Alabama or wherever it is that lizz posts from - I believe there's lots of jails there (mostly full of 'black people') and plenty of beans to count!

I'm from Massachusetts. Gotcha.

"I would love to be able to speak a Central Australian language..."

Then go learn one. What's stopping you?

By dead useless languages I didn't mean the ones that are still spoken. Aborigines who still speak their language should be given bilingual education where possible. (But if they want to go any further than primary grades, English is the language of learning.)

Dead languages are just that: dead. There are primary grade language programs in NSW whose purpose is to improve Aboriginal self-esteem and hence learning. They don't work.

"if "I was PM" the learning of a working Aboriginal Language and Culture would be compulsory in early and late school years ."

Do you have children? Why don't you send them to Alice Springs for early years Aboriginal language instruction?

Compulsory teaching of an Aboriginal language would take away valuable time from crucial subjects like math and science. Australia runs a prestigious Maths competition - the top scorers are now mostly of Asian origin, or come from select secondary schools in NSW or Victoria. Compulsory teaching of Aboriginal languages would force the parents of all high IQ children to put them in private schools.

Mandarin is a better language choice for Australians. China is the rising power in your area.

Country Girl: It may surprise you, but I agree with most of what y ou say, except 1) the Professional Aboriginalists want to force you to apologize. 2) a generalization isn't a falsehood.

Josephine Flood, "The Original Australians", p. 218, published 2005. "During my 40 years in Australia and much travelling in the NT and all six states, I have been struck by how seldom one sees Aboriginal people performing ordinary jobs apart from reserved positions in Aboriginal organisations, visitor centres or settlements."

Do the employed aboriginal people in Tamworth work in the mainstream economy, or in "reserved positions in Aboriginal organizations, visitor centres, or settlements"?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/aih/nsw/8.html
"Of males in the labour force, 41.5 per cent of Aborigines were unemployed, compared with 9.7 per cent of other males in New South Wales."

Desipis ... you have become boring.

I have employed an aboriginal girl in Sydney.

I helped the guy out in the shops the other day.

I purchased some calendars from a lady who was doing it tough 4 days ago.

I buy art from struggling artists.

I purchased a book from a lady who was doing it tough a month ago. I paid $40 for a book she was selling for $29 just to put a few more bucks in her pocket.

I have helped people refinance their homes to protect them from the crooks in the housing market! (unpaid in my own time)

I have sat and talked to cancer sufferers - in my own time regularly!

I have counselled (unpaid in my own time) an aborigine on how he and his clan might turn their property into an education facility!

I have counselled (unpaid in my own time) many people with depression and other problems!

You will often see me at the shops talking to the disabled and helping people where others don't care to help!

I am currently helping a gentleman who's life has been destroyed by a particular company to get his entitlements (unpaid in my own time)

There is more... but I try to do things in quietly and with respect for those I asist...

Yep my apology counts because I do things to help people.

What have you done except pontificate on how scared you are to say sorry?

Some people are doers and some are windbags which one are you?

To the bigotted people on these pages... You make me sick!

To those people who lash out and say that others who do not support the reconciliation agenda are "racists", I would suggest that the differences have far more to do with physics than racism. That is, after centuries of development, most Westerners have a large body of experience in doing things in a certain way. Just like in physics, where momentum is the product and mass and velocity, when Western civilisation clashes with Aboriginal society, Aboriginals will always come off second best purely because they have so much less momentum. Such is life in the physical world.

That's not to say there aren't racists within Western culture, nor that Aboriginals have been treated justly by the clash.

Lizz, In Tamworth and other areas, the places I have seen aboriginal people employed are:

- council workers :)
- banking staff
- nurses
- reception staff in businesses
- farm workers
- shearers
- home care services
- law

There'd be others, but they dont come to mind quickly - these are just off the top of my head. I did once work with an aboriginal legal aid centre that of course was govt funded, but that said had very strict criteria with regards to funding and reporting on spending. Whilst this might fall into your category of "native industry", it doesnt belie the fact that those that were employed there were intelligent people who would have been quite capable of holding down a job in private practice.

What does all this mean? Well it means that those that write-off aboriginals as a stone-age race incapable of coping with modern society are uninformed and single-minded. A lot of the problems with schooling and learning come back to background. Parents who didnt have the chance to attend school themselves are generally going to see little benefit in sending their kids. What we need are dedicated and resourceful teachers who are prepared to go to the efforts rquired to capture the imaginations of the children and thus interest them in learning. There was one program in the NT which was basically a husband and wife volunteer team, who used horse riding skills as the bait to get kids to school. The elders approved as the kids would then be learning skills that were practical - the decent education was not important to them, but the kids got it anyway as a part of the package. Horse riding wouldnt work for all schools or communities, so each would need to be creative in capturing the attention of kids. Similar programs could be used in the "disadvantaged suburbs" to help drop truancy rates. It all just requires creativity and dedication.

Liz the Yank,

It is to be expected I suppose that Aboriginal Reconciliation is not a term ever on your social and political radar.

You had "Treaties" etc on your way to taking the best of Native Indian Land - we have had Mabo which was at least headed in the right direction.

This was quickly followed by the Howard's Government shamefull counter Wik Amendments crafted by the politically powerfull Land owning squatter class [The Nationals], to wind back hard won gains for Indigenous people.

The thought of Sharing Land and communicating with Tribal Aboriginals was simply beyond the abilities and conception of most of both the Liberals and the Nationals . It still is, as proven by John Howard's Preamble Statement.

Naturally young Aboriginal people do not like to be the butt of racist ignorant, uninformed comments or jokes and can feel alienated and uncomfortable to the point that they would prefer no jobs with whites than have to ignore racism ,for the sake of work cohesion.

A rounded Social Education,[not worrying about how we will beat Asians in Maths Competitions] with a degree of Aboriginal content would make us, unlike the US, more understanding of difference in the world and at home.

CJ Morgan “Hey Col - I'm really a fun guy when you get to know me :)”

Ah that explains why I think you are a “joke”.

“Perhaps Col could consider moving to Alabama or wherever it is that lizz posts from”

I did live in Texas for a few years (as well as many years in UK), and Lizz (of Massachusetts) I remember having a splendid time in Boston.

I would suggest to CJMorgan, travel broadens the mind. Relocating, settling into and living somewhere else is an enriching experience. You really should try it some day. Although you might find you need more skills than just “being fun” to be allowed entry.

Kartiya jim “if "I was PM" the learning of a working Aboriginal Language and Culture would be compulsory in early and late school years.”

That explains why you are not PM.

Politics is the art of the possible,

not the indulgence in the pointless and fanciful

I am tempted to suggest a lot more but will suffice in observing “working Aboriginal Language” sounds a bit like an oxymoron.

I would note a definition racist

“hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.”

Observing the obvious “differences” between races does not imply intolerance to them.

I would further comment on another definition

“a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.”

“Discrimination” through unequal land rights is exactly what many aborigines expect from our government.
This flies in the face of “equality”, just like “affirmative action strategies” rely on an unequal assessment of acceptability or competency when qualifying different individuals, based on their race.

RobP “Such is life in the physical world”

Agree, we do live in a physical world, where the best we can expect is equal access to opportunity.

However, if someone choose to live in a desert, well away from populated and serviced communities and centres, let them but let them also bear the outcome of such decisions alone, just as I alone bear the price of living in a city.

Col,

"However, if someone choose to live in a desert, well away from populated and serviced communities and centres, let them but let them also bear the outcome of such decisions alone, just as I alone bear the price of living in a city."

That's one way of looking at it. However, the corollary of my earlier statement is that it is precisely because Aboriginals have so much less "developmental momentum" than Westerners that they can't survive in the modern cities where they could attain a better standard of living. And, from their starting point in life, even the most eager Aboriginal on the road to Damascus, so to speak, would have no hope of integrating properly (or without being hit by the proverbial Mack truck).

I think a useful question is: how can our society give further opportunity to those Aboriginals that either do want to make a go of it or who can benefit from it. Of course, those that don't want to take the opportunity can continue to live in the desert.

Rob P

You say “Aboriginals have so much less "developmental momentum" than Westerners that they can't survive in the modern cities “

This is utter rubbish. I live in Townsville where we have the largest Aboriginal population in Australia. I went to school with lots of aboriginal and Islander kids.

Without fail, those children whose parents were professionals or had a trade did the best. Their progress through school was no different to anyone else’s. The kids whose parents didn’t work or were alcoholics or itinerant, and those in foster care, fared the worst.

Aboriginal children can perform just as well as anyone else if they have the basic support and environment children need. The problem is many are caught in a vicious cycle where the parents are uneducated and poor so the kids don’t get a good education and they don’t get work, they have kids and the cycle perpetuates. There is little point blaming anyone as this will not improve anything.

The best way to break this cycle is to make sure the kids are well looked after and properly educated. This requires some family stability which means real work for the breadwinners. It also means proper policing, healthcare, housing etc. These things CANNOT be provided in remote communities.

There is NO SCOPE for aboriginal communities to live between worlds anymore. It is a disease killing their society. Either they take part in the mainstream, or they shun it completely, although I don’t see how they could.

For far too long the left has been poisoning these communities through their misguided “rights” based policies which neglected any accompanying responsibilities. You CANNOT maintain a community on passive welfare and expect to see positive results. Self respect and indeed respect for others cannot survive long term handouts.

LiztheYank,

If all you know about a subject is what you read about it on the web you are off to a very bad start. To quote the well known saying “It’s better to stay quiet and have people think you’re a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.”

RobP:

You've hit the nail on the head, but here's what I gather Professional Aboriginalists such as Stephen Hagen (and their white enablers) don't want Aboriginals to become western. They want the benefits and the trinkets, but not the thought processes that create the benefits. They deride assimilated Aborigines as “coconuts.” Is this just an Internet phenomenon, or is it real? You tell me.

Jim:

You accuse me of ignorance about Australia, while your comments betray your ignorance of US/Indian history. After the Plains Wars, Indian tribes received reservations, some of which are bigger than smaller states. They have mineral rights and royalties are paid to them when their land is used by the Federal Government – which I support totally.

It's clear you don't respect intellectual achievement and you suffer from a huge inferiority complex as regards the US, having turned this entire exchange into a slanging match based on nationality.

I would LOVE to see an Aboriginal kid do well in the Maths Competition. That would do more to boost pride in Aboriginality that all this ochre-and-face-painting and pseudo-traditional dancing nonsense. And unlike you - I think it's possible. You just have to want it badly enough, and work for it.

Col Rouge:

I wish I were as pithy as you.

Poverty in remote areas is no mystery. Indian reservations tend to be poor, because they are isolated, but do not exhibit the utter degradation I read about in “Little Children are Sacred.”

What is at the heart of this? What's the difference between a remote Indian reservation and a remote Aboriginal community? I'm not asking this to act superior. I just want to hear your perspective.

Paul:

Thanks for advice – follow it yourself. I quoted from a book by a well-known scholar, not only internet sources. Australia is a 14-hour flight away and hard to get to by train. I didn't realize this forum was for Australians only.

Since it requires a certain amount of wit to have a sense of humour, it's unsurprising that bitter old Col doesn't have one. However, as an Alf Garnett clone he does provide a certain amount of amusement to those of us who do have one.

Col recommends travel in order to broaden the mind - perhaps if he'd travelled as extensively, and actually lived and worked in non-Western societies as I have, his worldview might indeed be broadened from its current smugly neocolonial straitjacket. I'm not surprised that he was happy in Texas, where there's not only heaps of jails but also an impressive execution rate.

Actually, a superciliously racist prat like Col wouldn't last 5 minutes in some of the places around the world where I've lived and worked, so perhaps he should continue to restrict his travels to Western countries.

Massachusetts, eh lizz? I'm sure you have wide experience of indigenous people in that most genocidally conquered of American states. That might help to explain your apparently almost total lack of understanding of indigenous issues. Mind you, if you're reading books by people like Jo Flood now, there may be hope for you yet.

"I wish I were as pithy as you"

Yeth, he ith, ithn't he? Hith argumenth are pith-weak too.

Welcome Liz, pay no heed to the leftists who actually do live under lichen covered rocks and only emerge to attack those people who desire plentiful use of 'common sense'.
For years everyone has gibbered about the Poor Aboriginals and how badly they are treated.
As soon as someone tries to do something positive to get these folk out of the dark abyss, the cries of racism begin.
In truth the status quo of keeping the natives down is quite profitable to those with vested interests. Hence the shrieks.
Your comments are valuable and interesting.

Lizz-the-Yank I am not familiar with the environs of Native American Indians, however I suspect they display many similarities to Australian aboriginal settlements.

The problem is the same, appeasement of the vanquished by the victor, at the behest of the limp-wristed, spineless and guilt ridden socialists among us.

I abhor and deplore any sort of institutionalized racial or social differentiation.

I think the worst thing I found in USA when I lived there was the continual requirement to disclose ones racial origin on just about every government document and the affirmative action agendas, which meant that anyone could qualify for a soft government business loan provided they were not of Anglo-Saxon origin and not male.

On a positive note, I believe and cherish the notion that everyone is an individual, that we only deserve what we achieve for ourselves and that, regardless of what hand we are dealt, we are all equally responsible for making the most of it.

If people stopped looking for excuses to why they should be excused from being all that they might become, then the world would be a happier and more contented place.

CJMorgan “Actually, a superciliously racist prat like Col wouldn't last 5 minutes in some of the places around the world where I've lived and worked,”

LOL I have obviously got under your skin.

It is a dullard who brags their “superiority” by suggesting others could not endure their experiences (in CJM case, I am likely to find the "mediocrity" of the experience the real challenge).

It is the faux-bravado of the under-achiever, pretending their existence actually mattered or meant anything.

For myself, I made conscious decisions about where I would go to live and where I would not (eg I have knocked back offers from Caribbean, Zimbabwe, UAE, Saudi etc, and crossed South America and most of Asia off my “choice list” before I even started).

CJM your observations to “worldly travels” confirms the likelihood that when it came to it, as a “beggar”, you are were not a “chooser”

(I trust my “pithiness” is not too “acerbic” for you

Alf Garnett: "I have knocked back offers from Caribbean, Zimbabwe, UAE, Saudi etc, and crossed South America and most of Asia off my 'choice list' before I even started"

Absolutely - very hard to get good fish and chips in those places.

The worldview that Col displays so eloquently in this forum seems entirely commensurate with his world experience. I guess he survived in Texas because there's plenty of beans to count there too - I wonder if he got into one of the true delights of Texas (chili) while he was there? Mmmmm.... beans.

Col, have you ever managed to get out of the city since you've been in Australia - like to places where you might actually get to meet some of the Aboriginal people about whom you have such disparaging views? I live in the bush and I interact with Aboriginal people every day, very few of whom resemble the stereotypical mendicant that you and lizz apparently think is typical of Indigenous people in Australia.

Your racism, like all racism, is derived from ignorance. Your comments betray the artificiality of your prejudice. If I was of similarly odious temperament, I could suggest that this is what we'd expect from a whingeing Pom and a crass Yank.

But I'm not, so I won't :)

Spare us the imported racism of immigrants (Col) and foreigners (lizz)! Maybe the closed borders crew have a point after all :)

"perhaps if he'd travelled as extensively, and actually lived and worked in non-Western societies as I have, "

Note the past tense. Lefties like "CJ" always make sure to return to a nice, comfortable Western society. It's fun to go on a humanitarian tourist spree, then come home and run down Western civilization - with a computer (created by eevil white men) and a nice refrigerated drink (brought to you by eevil white men) in your hand, after you've taken a shower with clean running water (more stuff brought to you by eevil white men...) and so on. Third World conditions are so ennobling - let someone else walk the walk, while the noble leftist talks the talk.

"Pith-weak". Not funny. I would suggest speech therapy, but I think CJ's problems go much deeper than that.

Col Rouge, I did not mean to turn this into a US/Australia slagging match, but to try to figure out why things are so bad with the Indigenous Australians. American Indians vary - some groups such as the Choctaw in Georgia do quite well. The Navajo (with which I am somewhat familiar having lived in Arizona) own a good chunk of the state and also do fairly well. Yes, life expectancy is 7 years lower, alcoholism, diabetes and heart disease are bad. But the situation with Aborigines is waay worse. Why?

mickijo: Thanks, and I'll definitely drop by when I think I have something to say. I think Australia is a great country. Thus its anguish with Indigenous issues puzzles me. I have sympathy for the Aborigines because they are trying to do something very hard: join a globalized, technological society for which they quite naturally have much suspicion. I'm familiar with the CJ type of leftists: long on abuse and insult, short on facts. I note that he has not addressed one issue I brought up rationally. I am fairly sure he's a man with aggression issues. With friends like that, the Aborigines hardly need enemies.

Lizz the yank,
Thanks for your insight into US First nation Peoples .It's good to get your perspectives.

Been to the US - friends there.

You're puzzled by Aboriginal Affairs in Australia - some of us are definitely not and hence our extreme annoyance at the status quo and the garbage and racism that occasionally surfaces on these pages.

As for my families, both white and black , he puffs his chest out] ,they are very smart at maths and the arts.

But then perhaps that's because my wife's name is Liz....

Paul.L,

I live in Canberra and I can assure you that Indigenous employees don't do nearly so well (at least in a visible sense) as they do in Townsville (not that I've been there lately, but I'll take your word for it.) While one sees plenty of Asians (as students and working in fast-food shops and restaurants) and some Indians working in professional jobs etc, you don't see many Aboriginals around.

Being the home of the Australian Public Service, Canberra attracts bureaucrats, academics, lobbyists and intellectuals of all backgrounds. While it's a pretty atypical city in Oz, it is the perfect place to test my central point/thesis that Aboriginals don't do well here because they just can't compete or cohabit effectively with a more developed culture.

For example, despite the fact that the public service has an Equal Employment Opportunity policy that gives specific preferment to Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders, in the last State of the Service report, the numbers of Aboriginal APS employees went backwards. (I suspect it's because they're getting crowded out by Western culture.)

I imagine that Townsville, as a medium-sized city, and with our national low unemployment rate, is crying out for whatever workers it can get - like lots of other towns and cities at the moment - which has opened up opportunities for Aboriginals that they've never had before. Good luck to them if they can make a go of it.

Lizz-the-Yank, “Col Rouge, I did not mean to turn this into a US/Australia slagging match,”

Nor I. I am sorry you took it that way.

I was merely commenting on my personal observations of life in USA.

Regarding “But the situation with Aborigines is way worse. Why? “

I might speculate

1 the resilience and quality of the Australian aboriginal genes might be less viable than those of American Indians or other races.

2 observing the parallel colonizatoin of New-Zealand along side that of Australia and how the ability of Maoris to socially organization ended up with a treaty with the British Crown, whilst the lack of "social organization" observed in Kooris resulted in no treaty.

It might be speculated that the Australian Kooris comparative lack the skills to form such cohesive and effective social organizations has been reflected in an inability to compete effectively on “a level playing field” with people of other races.

All that is speculation, I make no claim to be an anthropologist.

CJMorgan

You just don’t know when to give up do you?

I find it almost flattering, your groveling attempts to endear through childish banter.

It amuses me to give you a good public slapping from time to time.

But you are becoming a bore.

Remember CJ, debating is a battle of wits.

And you have clearly arrived hear lacking the basic weaponry.

Now run away, that’s a good fellow, someone might want to tax your intellect, maybe check your IQ produces an integer larger than your shoe size.

Col R: Sometimes the Internet isn't the best way to communicate. I wasn't accusing you personally of engaging in a US/Australia competition - just wanted to make clear that this was not what I am about.

Regarding genes, I don't think that American Indians are genetically hardier than Aborigines. Smallpox devastated them to a perhaps even greater extent than it did Aborigines, not to mention other diseases.

However, one could say that their level of development was Neolithic as opposed to Paleolithic. That might explain something....

Kartiya Jim: You may be interested in this:

http://www.ihs.gov/AboutIHS/index.asp

Anyway, everybody, thanks. You've all been very informative.

Liz

Give the pseudo science a rest. The devastation caused by smallpox has NOTHING to do with genetics and everything to do with EXPOSURE and ANTIBODIES.

The idea that the differences between races is genetic was very popular with Adolf Hitler. Great company I'm sure.

Just think about the hundreds of millions of white people who died from influenza and plague

I live in Darumbal country and the racism here is as thick as shag pile carpet. Hypocrisy and cruelty are nothing new to indigenous people, they have been fighting them for over two hundred years. Indigenous Australians are a strong and intelligent people they do not fall for trickery and slight of hand as poor westerners do. They will not be socially constructed as easily as the English lower classes. Why don't we just stop trying to trick people with symbolic gestures and enter into a treaty with the people who have kinship with this land. Migaloo woman Darumbal country.

Victor Meldrew/Alf Garnett: "the resilience and quality of the Australian aboriginal genes might be less viable than those of American Indians or other races"

I can't imagine why anybody'd think you're a racist old creep, with ideas like that. Better stick to counting beans, old chap. Clearly, civilised and friendly discourse is beyond you.

CJMorgan “Victor Meldrew/Alf Garnett:”

Oh how trite. I said previously on this or another thread, you were becoming predictable and boring. It is a shame you do not see it. But then, to recognize it would require more than you can muster, intellectually speaking.

“can't imagine why anybody'd think you're a racist old creep, with ideas like that. Better stick to counting beans, old chap. Clearly, civilised and friendly discourse is beyond you.”

That is less the raptorial elegance of the wit, more the cudgel of the nit-wit.

As dearest Margaret Thatcher said

“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”

That you lack the intellect, imagination and courage to challenge my views says nothing about me and a whole lot about how deeply you are descending into vilification as a feeble attempt at bolstering vulgar popularism.

PaulL “differences between races is genetic was very popular with Adolf Hitler.”

Unless I am mistaken, genetic differences account for the colour of our skin.

I would recall the gene which produces ginger-haired people is regressive. Hence ultimately the ginger haired freckly folk are likely to die out completely.

Similarly, blue eyed children require both parents to have blue eyes.

Denying a “genetic difference between races” might be “politically correct” but it has nothing to do with reality.

Eugenics was what Hitler and others believed in. That is not the same as acknowledging the differences between races.

As I have posted before, “there are a lot of coffee coloured people in Brazil”. Ultimately that is where Australia and most of the rest of the world will be in a few centuries.

Being an absolute believer in the “chaos” of individual choices in intermixing and intermarriage and supporter in the rights of the individual to do as they see fit, I personally think it will be a good thing.

http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/vircatas/vir6.htm:

"Smallpox morbidity and genetic diversity.

"Genetic diversity, rather than immunity, may be the key, as the viral epidemiologist Francis Black argues in a recent paper. Human geneticists report that Amerindians (along with Polynesians and New Guineans) are unusually homogeneous genetically. The smallpox virus adapts quickly to a host's immunological response--not mutating into a new strain, but rather preparing for battle with other hosts of nearly identical genetic make-up. Field research on measles is the most convincing. Measles acquired from a member of one's family tends to be more virulent than that acquired from a stranger. According to Black, "virus grown in one host is preadapted to a genetically like host and thereby gains virulence." The genetic key to successfully defending against an attack of virulent smallpox is the production of histocompatibility antigens. Unfortunately, in this regard, Amerindians show only 1/64th the genetic diversity of Africans or Europeans. The odds worsen when exposure is simultaneous and from multiple sources, particularly from members of one's own family."

It seems that this indigenous issue is so bitter & polarized you can't discuss ANYTHING without being called a racist.