stevenlmeyer: "...if it were not for the rampant antisemitism, homophobia and general fixation on controlling bedroom behaviour and hostility to free speech that pervades contemporary Islam."

Wind back 50 years and you've got Christianity. Sure, the Muslim nutjobs are a worry, but so are the Christian nutjobs and they've got far more money and influence in this country (and, I daresay, in Belgium).

I have no time at all for radical Islamists, and I would criticise them in much the same way I do with bigoted Christian fundies - if I ever had any contact with them (which I don't). The Muslims who post to this forum all seem to be eminently reasonable and tolerant of others - which is more than I can say for the most vocal of our OLO Christians.

And certainly the few Muslims that I know are the very opposite of radical - they are in fact quite secular in their daily lives, although they tend not to drink alcohol.

CJ Morgan,

I don’t see how it is possible to be a "secular" Muslim anymore than it is possible to be a secular Christian. I suggest you are referring to people who, while they may have come from an Islamic background, are only nominal adherents of Islam. There are nominal Muslims as there are nominal Christians.

By definition these are not the people I'm talking about.

A devout Muslim is bound by his religion to seek to have certain conduct such as homosexual acts or sex outside marriage declared punishable criminal offences. He is also bound to have what he would consider to be insults to Islam declared a punishable criminal offence. In other words, the Muslim leadership is seeking to reinstate laws against blasphemy.

You have brought up what you call "Christian nutjobs." So far as I am aware none of the leaders of the mainstream Christian churches are seeking to criminalize homosexuality or to bring back laws against blasphemy.

Whatever may have been the case with Christians in the past, right now, in 2007, it is Islam that is seeking to impose its view of morality on society.

But in a sense you are right. In Western countries the POTENTIALLY greater threat comes from Christianity. If we do not stand up to the Islamic onslaught against civil liberties how will we defend ourselves against a Christian onslaught?

Because, CJ Morgan, there are Christians out there who are quite happy to let Islam soften us up and then reap the "rewards."

We either stand up against ALL totalitarian ideologies – and that's what contemporary Islam is – or we succumb.

It's no good talking about "Christian nutjobs" or the "Fascist Howard Government" or the dreadful "neocons" or "Bush the religious fanatic" anytime someone mentions the totalitarian nature of contemporary Islam. We need to be equally firm against the lot.

Right now people on the left seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the totalitarian nature of contemporary Islam.

Excellent post, stevenlmeyer– I couldn’t agree more.

'dogged pursuit, palimpsest? 'virtuous'?

..er;...haven't you got your identities the wrong way around?
______________

Here's the thing BOZO.

I don't pretend to be Christian. You do. Pretend, that is.

I am of course assuming here that you see the doctrine of Christianity as a force for good? (It certainly is for a friend of mine who carries none of your spite, intolerance, and judgmentalism. I've noticed that you have a real penchant for categorizing other posters negatively in your posts. You've just done it again).

There's the rub. YOU are the good guy. YOU are the Christian?
Me? I'm just the Heathen.

Are you getting it, BOZO?

You are not Christian AT ALL! You are bigoted, and domineering in your attitude to your fellow man.

I do not make any pretence of your brand of morality.

I have said it before, and I will repeat it; you ARE an odious creature.

Banjo

I don't doubt that there are *some* Lebanese Muslims who cause problems.

I work in a community that reminds me a lot of what you have mentioned with some young Lebanese men. Sixteen year-olds with criminal records as along as their arms. They're not Lebansese - They're white.

I'm not too sure what your race is, but given your pseudonym is 'Banyo', I think it's a safe bet to assume you're a white Australian, like me. And I don't think you or I would take to kindly to being associated with the criminal activities that occur by *some* young white males in the community I work in.

I don't think it's fair to expect other non-Lebanese Muslims to challenge those Muslims who are behaving like stand-over merchants. They're probably just as concerned about their behaviour, as well as bewildered because they are being associated with their behaviour AND expected to sort them out.

I believe the abuse of Muslim women is a lot more prevelant than you are aware of. I believe it to be more than passing rev heads. It's quite confrontational and intimidating behaviours they're experiencing when they are not with their husands.

It's happening Banjo. It's the ugly face of Australia, that I am sure neither you nor I would want to be associated with.

stevenlmeyer:"Right now people on the left seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the totalitarian nature of contemporary Islam."

Agree with all you've said except the above. The real left like the Russians and the Serbs have responded robustly to the Muslims call for war (jihad) against the non-Muslims. The so called "left" in OLO are nothing but Islamophiles who in some way or other are personally linked to Muslims.

Whenever the Muslims are in the majority, they would cause trouble for the countries in they are in by wanting independence. In India in 1947, in south Thailand, in the island of Mindanao in Philippines, in the province of Kosovo in Serbia.