This well reasoned and factually supported article reveals yet another reason why Bush's Australian cheerleader must be removed at the next election.

Great article Marko. The prevailing insanity dispassionately explained.

And here in OLO are the facts that should be screaming everyday from the headlines of our mainstream newspapers. Yet the silence is deafening - why? Where is 7:30 Report, Lateline and out old feisty Dateline?

Darth Cheney's parallel government seems to shrug off the craven US Congress and Senate with impunity. It scares the hell out of our government and sly-boys. It absolutely dominates all aspects of the US media. Those old Iran-Contra dirt-unit boys got hold of all the levers of power in the stolen election of 2000, when the Boy Emperor was crowned. That was the penultimate instalment in a coup that went totally unreported. The world's most powerful nation falls to treason from within.

- SILENCE! -

If I had any teeth left worth mentioning, I'd be gnashing 'em -

SIGNIFICANCE OF SEPTEMBER 12th to OSAMA BIN LADIN.

New York time/date of 12th September in Arabia is 11th September in NewYork.

The True date for the event... is relative to the location of BIN LADIN which is the 12/september.

This date is CRUCIAL to understand the connection to history.

GATES OF VIENNA. OTTOMAN SEIGE/ISLAMIC INVASION. 1683

The battle marked the turning point in the 300-year struggle between the forces of the Central European kingdoms and the Ottoman Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

The Holy League forces arrived on the "Kahlen Berg" (bare hill) above Vienna, signaling their arrival with bonfires. In the early morning hours of 12 September, before the battle, a mass was held for King Sobieski.

Details of the Battle are found in the Article, but the conclusion was a Christiandom victory and the fleeing of the Turkish/Islamic forces in dissarray.

King Sobieski, the Christian hero of the day paraphrased Julius Caesar's famous quote by saying

"veni, vidi, Deus vicit" - "I came, I saw, God conquered"

LET IT BE KNOWN TO ALL OF US.....that the date chosen by Bin Ladin/Kalid Sheikh MOhammad/Ramsi Yusuf was very very significant!

The message being sent was not "Get out of Arabia, Afghanistan etc"

The message was.. "WE ARE BACK.. AND WE WILL TAKE YOUR COUNTRIES"

Surah 9:29-30

29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allâh. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allâh's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

IRONY. The Turkish sultan was executed after the battle..by Jannisaries, his elite forces. They were the children of defeated Christians turned into slaves/soldiers.

Anyone who thinks that the various struggles between the forces of Islam (Dar Ul Islam)and its empires and the rest of Dar Ul Harb (dominion of war) need only refer to the list below of how many wars the Ottomans fought, and over what period of time.

Russo-Turkish War (1568–1570)
Russo-Turkish War (1676–1681)
Russo-Turkish War (1686–1700)
Russo-Turkish War (1710–1711)
Russo-Turkish War (1735–1739)
Russo-Turkish War (1768–1774)
Russo-Turkish War (1787–1792)
Russo-Turkish War (1806–1812)
Russo-Turkish War (1828–1829)
Russo-Turkish War (1853–1856) (Crimean War)
Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)
Russo-Turkish War (1914–1918) (World War I)

This a period of 346 years.

Since the last world war it has been.........53 yrs.

The Americans were paying Muslim Mafios'is on the Barbary Coast up to TWENTY FIVE PERCENT of gross national product in tribute to persuade them to allow American ships to sail by the coast of North Africa and to free American white SLAVES they had captured.

The Simple fact of international relations is.. they (countries) will fight and strive to be top dog......the arrogance of humans 'in power' knows no bounds. Whether is chicken poo Sultans on the Barbary coast, or American presidents and their economic powerhouse interests now

You are spot on with your fears, Marko, with proven political criminals like Bush and Cheney et al, in charge, what else could there be?

It is also so scary that even with public democratic reasoning against such events happening, they will happen because although we are against these people being in charge of a unipolar body we know now has proven itself far from democratic, we haven't the guts to make a change.

As one who has strongly studied the History of Western Philosophy one is reminded so much of John Locke who after the English 1688 Glorious Revolution, gave voice to the new Libertian right for the English people to change the leadership when necessary.

The American Constitution was also mainly constituted on Locke's reasoning - but unfortunately has still let the wrong people Rule the Roost - made far worse because it is a case of global rulership.

One hates to think of it, but maybe it might take a challenge from Russia and China to bring our leaders back to sanity?

So finally the truth comes out... from Alan Greenspan, a man reportedly to be a republican about his own party. THEY INVADED FOR THE OIL.

Can someone please notify Johnnie Howard ... I'm sure he is still looking for the WMD's... Onya Johnnie.

This opens the doors to some very interesting legal & moral questions that may affect Australia.

Under International law surely it is illegal to invade a country on falsified information PLUS it is definitely illegal to invade a country just for their OIL. What has this Government of ours done to us?

If this is the case and seeing how many 1000's of innocent Iraqis and many innocent soldiers have been killed by this invasion - Is there a possibilty for our country and others belonging to the "coalition of the willing" to be held accountable, and where does International war crimes laws click in here. Could some of these politicians and others be charged? Did Little Johnnie Howard mislead parliament and the Australian people?

Then there is the final point of course ... Isn't the Bush government Christian and doesn't Johnnie Howard speak to religious organisations to get their support? Which part of Christianity allows Christians to lie when it suits them? Which part of Christianity allows for the deaths of 10's of thousands of innocent people based on falsified evidence and lies?

Johnnie on Mr Greenspan's opinion alone you should call an election immediately and face the people!

The behaviour of the Cheney parallel government has become so egregious, that the world is poised on the brink of nuclear warfare.

There is a tremendous push to influence and inform a critical mass of the US regular military, in the hope of driving in a wedge that might grant us a stay of execution. Here is one such effort - from Lt. Col. Robert M. Bowman, who was in charge of the "Star Wars" program during the Ford and Carter administrations. Indeed he coined the term for Reagan. Short Youtube vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5gio_iR2WE

This is what he has to say to the US military:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6773

People like me are often accused of being anti-American. But if it is the welfare of the American PEOPLE we are talking about, then I put it to you that it is our own government who betrayed them. It betrayed them by eating neocon excrement until it dribbled down their chins in the chambers of our Parliament.

ANZUS was a just a quiet conduit for neocon zeal and military influence. It had nothing to do with the true and future welfare of our respective societies.

And how much resistance did we manage to mount? Latham (dealt with), Brown and Nettle (just greenies - go back to sleep). Out of a sea of public servants, only Andrew Wilkie apparently. Our fearless TV anchors? - forget it! Our military just suffered themselves to be hostages. How is that possible in this day and age?

The men of steel turned out to be men of clay. So many opportunities lost due to sheer funk or self-deluding dreams of grandeur. The cat is out of the bag, big-time.

Now we really are going to have to pick a side and dig in.

- ah, it feels good to get that off my chest -

Bushbred

Russia and China?

Now I know you belong in the loony-left. It was misguided people like you who supported the communists during the cold war. People like you believed all their spurious claims about the inhumanity of capitalism and fell for the promise of socialist utopia. People like you defended the communists while they were murdering and imprisoning millions. China still executes more people than the rest of the world combined. Both countries occupy foreign states and have designs on others.

Russia has recently been threatening Europe and the US with its nuclear weapons and runs daily bomber flights at Britain testing their (Britain’s) air defence capabilities and observing their weak areas. This is an incredible act of aggression, yet no one on the left will call them on it.

China insists that Taiwan belongs to it and is prepared to use any and all means to retrieve it.

Both countries have far worse human rights records; have less freedom and more corruption than the US.

Yet people like you ignore these realities blaming us instead for all the worlds’ ills.

Iran has immersed itself in the war in Iraq, trying to gain a strategic advantage by attacking the US when it is at its weakest, through proxies. A significant portion of the weapons and explosives that end up killing innocent Iraqis are provided by the Iranians through the Revolutionary Guards. This is not a defensive exercise and puts the lie to their claim that they only want nuclear power for their own protection.

In the least confrontational outcome, Iran will use their possession of nuclear weapons to destroy the Israeli's economy by bringing them to full alert on a regular basis. Once they have achieved this they will dominate the Middle East which is their goal. This will allow them to spread their particular militant version of Islam. Shia Iraq will be the first to come within a greater Iranian prosperity sphere.

American pressure has led the North Koreans to back down on their nuclear program. There is hope for a non violent solution with Iran.

I think you may have misunderstood bushbred, Phil.L,

>>Russia and China? Now I know you belong in the loony-left. It was misguided people like you who supported the communists during the cold war. <<

I think he may have been talking about the virtues of a "wake-up call" to US policy via a challenge from a more confident (and perhaps aggressive) Russia or China. Hardly the line of a "pinko", doncher think?

But I'll leave that for you and him to sort out.

I think it has been fairly obvious that Putin is using his new-found oil wealth to make a few rude gestures towards the West, but nobody really thinks he is serious, even the most die-hard of US Colonels. But they may be wrong too, I guess, however...

When it comes to China and Taiwan, you need to get your ear a little closer to the ground.

>>China insists that Taiwan belongs to it and is prepared to use any and all means to retrieve it.<<

The countries share a common heritage; they are both Chinese. Do not underestimate this factor in the equation. There are many Taiwanese who think that "reunification" with the mainland is, in the fullness of time, both inevitable and to be welcomed. As of last year, the largest market for Taiwan was the mainland, with 38% of Taiwan's exports crossing the Formosa Strait, and 13% of her imports (second after Japan) came from there. Just as significantly, in 2005 Taiwan earmarked $6billion for direct outward investment in mainland China, probably a solid 10% of the total (no-one quite knows whether China fudges its FDI figures or not).

The sabre-rattling that goes on year after year is largely window-dressing, for both sides. China likes to keep the US on its toes, and Taiwan rather likes the military support it gets each time China gets a little uppity. Quite a fun game, actually, but not one that is going to result in a war. Too many trade ties, on both sides.

And both sides are underneath it all, clever traders.

Paull, you know very well I do not support the Communists but I do very much support Lockean philosophy on which the US Constitution was founded except for the inclusion of the ersatz prerogative which was put in after the 1688 English Glorious Revolution to please those who still hungered for a semblance of the old autocratic royalty.

In fact, it was George the Third of Britain who over-used the Prerogative to declare war on the American settlers rather than allowing the independence that was later given to the Australian settlers.

Foolishly it was the American settlers themselves who did not take a lesson from their own experience by allowing the US President an even stronger personal Prerogative than George 3rd of Britain was allowed.

We studied such problems towards the end of the Cold War, Paull under an American teacher. And as I told you in an earlier thread, we talked about an abuse of global authority that could emerge with a unipolar global system as we now have with America as the top dog.

Furthermore, as I told you the ideal system for global peace is a multipolar one, a United Nations nowhere near matching it because as proven, both the League of Nations and the UN were dominated by a type of corporatism which we have right now, a type of military industrial culture which will always be dominated by a single Great Power, formerly Britain and now the United States.

Also, Paull, you talk about peace for Iran, but sounds almost like Tacitus described the Roman peace, as when all the enemy as well as their followers have been put to the sword

There have been newspaper reports in Britain and Washington this week of a plan that the Bush Administration has drawn up for an attack scenario on Iran including the use of nuclear weapons. Bush has indicated many times "all options are on the table." This plan indicates 2000 Iranian targets will be pulverized in a two to three day period. This will not be a war fought on the ground, more likely, from the air using bombs, missiles and some 40 warships firing shells around the clock presently, in the Persian Gulf. Iran has the third largest oil supplies and Iraq the second largest this is what Bush and Cheney lust after and come out of the oil industry. As well, Bush wants world control of major resources to offset the US spiralling debt and loss of production. Not so long ago the US was the worlds largest creditor now its the worlds largest debtor and at one time the US had 60percent of world trade.

On Sept.6th Israeli jet fighters flew deeply into Syrian air space as a provocation where they were engaged by Syrian Jets. Which indicates, that US plans for a wider Middle Eastern conflagration, whether launched directly by the US or by its Israeli allies, are well-advanced. Whether or not Syria is to be targeted as well as Iran, the Israeli action was meant to send a clear message that it is vulnerable and should not attempt to help Iran in the event of a US attack.
Recently on Sept.14th a scientific survey by the British polling organization ORB, estimates 1.2 million violent deaths in Iraq since the US invasion, figures that are truly catastrophic and far from finished. More wars will follow.

I can't seeing team Bush doing all that much unless they win the next election.Nevertheless the Middle East remains a real dilemma.I don't think democracy will work in Muslim countries.The Imans know that free thinking intelligent people cannot be controlled by religion hence there is restrictions on education for women and what is taught in their schools.

If Iran develops many powerful nuclear weapons,they can control the Middle East and the price of oil.This affects the lives of everyone on the planet.How are we going to control an Iran armed to the teeth when a nuclear war in that region destroys not only Iran but the supplies of oil to the rest of the world?This feral religion does not respond to logic or even loss of their own lives.They cannot even be bought off.If the population of Iran is whipped into a frenzy under threats,they will sacrifice all.

China and Japan won't be starved of energy and they'll also take them to task with much more catastrophic results than the US hamstrung by democracy.

The US is thinking that it is better to act now than facing a catastrophic war in a few years when Iran is armed to the teeth.This is not a time for weak kneed equivocation,since nuclear weapons controlling the world's energy supplies is a recipe for disaster.

All the more reason to get Bush and his fellow war criminals on trial and safely hung before the end of the year.

Since Oz doesn't have a death penalty we should use the CIAs marvellous rendition program to fly our war criminals (Howard, Downer, Ruddock & Costello, in hoods & shackles) to Texas where they are quite happy to execute the mentally retarded.

I see that the claim now is that Israel attacked a "nuclear facility" or something "nuclear related". With every passing day we get something new on the airstrike but one big thing out of all this is Robert Gates refusing to distance himself from the nonsense been spread on Syria. Both Robert Gates and Condi Rice right to the end, during Bush the Elder, thought that Gorby was pulling a trick to deceive the West. Rice was supposed to be an expert on the Soviet Union. They are not moderates.

Hands up those who feel impotent as this maddness goes around us...

Whats missing for us the common is the same facts the powers above us have...on which they base their actions in our name...'powers above'?the oranized force that arranges, organizes and acts is the government of each country...who they send is us the common people...while they sit in their offices...

Now Iraq...no wmd...but military action...and Iraqi's worse...and their oil wells in corporate control...and most likely rapid-extraction of the limited oil...and when mostly mud left...there is a mass pull out with same sell-able image to us the common to keep us talking more...while the act/benefit done and over...and accountability avoided...time to safely count the green stuff made...

no mention of destruction/damage...remember the 'shock and awe' period arround baghdad was pepered with explosions...republican guards were mobilized from desert to the city...hundred thousand plus...wiped out trying to protect their families as final defense...there was no need...the desert was open and left for coalition ie majority of country with oil fields...

Hence arises the ultimate question...have vested interests taken over the governments of the western world...and now work as an organized network...aiming to eliminate governments still in peoples control...eg Iran...hmmm...

Now Iran is in the cross-hairs...they should forget about nuclear...and focus on getting state-of art-monitoring equipment...awacs constantly criss-crossing the borders...that can pick up a seagull flying over the waves...and precision weapons capable of bringdown anything flying...yep...if there is going to be invasion...it will be face to face combat...ie if they learnt anything from Iraq strategy...

Sam

Paul.L.- you have something a bit backwards.

It wasn't American pressure on Korea that made them back down on their nuclear programme, it was Korean pressure on America (via Japan) that made them honour a previous agreement that they reneged on.

The influence of Israeli interests may motivate the Americans in some way when the time comes.

It was US support of the Shah that led to the rise of militant Islam in the Middle East in the first place so the words "chickens", "home" and "roost" have a strange resonance here.

Also, the stategic importance of establishing bases in the region is as much related (if not more) to the importance of the Caspian Oilfields as the Arab ones.

Finally, sometimes it's more fun to be from the loony-left than from the rabid-right because you don't have to keep defending the indefensible.

Rache,

If it makes you feel better to pretend I’m from the rabid right be my guest. Whilst it isn’t true, it certainly doesn’t concern me.

If you are defending North Korea, you truly are defending the indefensible. In its history North Korea could never claim to have taken an honest approach to negotiation. They NEVER keep the agreements that they make, squeezing the maximum gain they can from appearing to cooperate and then reverting back to their hostile stance. They are led by a true Madman, who does not face elections and expects to be worshipped as a GOD. Somewhere close to 10% of the population are in forced labour camps across the country. The whole extended family of a person considered a subversive are sent to prison with him/her.

The growing trend among the left to blame everything that goes wrong in this world on the US is an intellectually lazy exercise which appeals to many people's hatred of the Western democracies.

Militant Islam has roots much further back than Americas support for the Shah of Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood was formed in Egypt in 1928 with the credo “Allah is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations.”

For an good analysis of militant Islam, see http://www.hadassah.org/education/content/HotTopics/Terror/islam.htm

Sam said

Talking in sound bites might seem impressive to the intellectually challenged on OLO. But for the rest of us you might like to speak in whole sentences and provide some evidence for your paranoia.

BushBred,

Your multipolar world would be ideal were it not for the fact that all the other poles are dictatorships. Would you be happy to have China and Russia dictate our foreign policy? Why should we allow non democratic countries to have this power over us? The only interest they have in a multipolar world is as a step up on their way to global dominance

Peace with Iran needs to be on our terms. Militant Islam does not need any more successes.

To Pericles –
Thanks mate, you were so right with your reasoning that what I was trying to get across was to bring in strong neutral players like Russia and China to prevent a catastrophy which will surely happen if Iran is attacked.
The capture of Iran would be no walkover, as already proven when Iran was attacked by Iraq in 1981 with American backing - Iran finally won after eight years despite enormous casualties.

There are also rumours that Iran already has nuclear warheads to fit her long-range rockets anyhow, purchased from outside.

The main thing in the Middle East right now is to prevent major war which will almost surely be nuclear.

Here Pericles gives a line on outside players - “Becomes quite a fun game actually, politics mixed up with economics, but not one that can result in a war.”

As a historian it gives one reminder of the Concert of Europe when Bismarck, who after winning decisive local battles to unite the Germanic provinces, stood up to France which was threatening Germany over Alsace Lorraine. It proved a chance for Germany to test out its new long-range artillery, as the great novelist Emil Zola points out, proving their guns all the way to Paris.

It was when Bismarck, showed proof of his Realpolitik, the commonsense to know when to take over or just to give warning.

Thus it was in 1873 when Bismarck had his Germans withdraw from Paris after warning the French to watch their step or be taken over.

Bismarck died in 1908, and it is said by historians that if Bismarck had been alive in 1914, WW1 would never have begun.

It is so interesting that Bismarck never seemed out to capture the hearts and minds of other nations, unlike our Americans who seemed always out to push the American Way, with little Israel well sheltered under the Stars and Stripes.

As a female Iranian judge remarked earlier - we will eventually find our own democracy thank you very much, Mr Bush.

Cheers, BB - WA

Interesting article Marko

The US, French and Israelis have threatened to bomb Iran before. However the November 2008 US elections may be the final deadline for Bush to - stand up...finish the job...bomb Iran until the US can liberate it and impose democracy...then presumably stand down and reap the oil rewards..

The US/Israeli neocons are running out of time and their front man Bush just done gotta do it. Accepting that Iran, like the US and Isral, has the right to have nuclear weapons appears to be beyond the Texan imagination. How can the US get at Iran's darned oil if Iran has nookliar weapoons? Maybe ask Israel to disarm and be less manifestly aggressive - then Iran would be more accommadating.

But then again the US and Israel has nukes FIRST in the region...

Pete

Here's a thorough evaluation of the Iranian state-of-play where their nuclear program is concerned (video, part 1 and 2):

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18403.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18404.htm

Honestly, this makes a mockery of the coy little puff-piece we were offered on Lateline last night (Are you looking, Tony and team? Pick up your game! Alston is 12,000 miles away).

Here's ElBaradei's IAEA report on Iran. Read it for yourselves, instead of listening to propaganda from two-bob shills:

http://cryptome.org/iaea083007.htm

Although we have been at war for oil for years, it still hasn't sunk in properly. To press the point home, here's a piece from the archives (old video, US 60 Minutes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inyCkCvqRO0&v3

As for the other reason for the destruction of Iraq - the one we never talk about - here's a bit of historical footage from "our" man in Persia (1974):

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a8_1190037368

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

- who said that?

Gee Chris

We don’t have to wonder if you are biased anymore. Please do provide more sites where I can get the MARXIST perspective. Marxist analyses having been so effective that every country which took them on, FAILED.

AIJAZ AHMAD . There is plenty more hysterically anti-American rubbish he has produced. To pretend that this man is as objective, and Tony Martin/Lateline are not, is exceedingly rich. This man, like Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky, produces leftist propaganda.

Mate I just read the report that you provided from the IAEA. I am not sure whether you understood the detail but it certainly doesn’t support any conclusion you have made above. The IAEA makes it clear that whilst they can follow the trail of DECLARED nuclear material. It is the UNDECLARED fuel which the IAEA cannot make any conclusions about, Quote

“However, the Agency remains unable to verify certain aspects relevant to the scope and nature of Iran’s nuclear programme. It should be noted that since early 2006, the Agency has not received the type of information that Iran had previously been providing, including pursuant to the Additional Protocol, for example information relevant to ongoing advanced centrifuge research.”

“Confidence in the exclusively peaceful nature of Iran’s nuclear programme requires that the Agency be able to provide assurances not only regarding declared nuclear material, but, equally important, regarding the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran, through the implementation of the Additional Protocol”

Do you think if you repeat your mantra that George Bush is a war criminal, and that the war is only about stealing oil, it will eventually convince normal people?

Because by providing Marxist analysis you are only further alienating those you seek to convince. Or are you just preaching to the choir?

I see you have trotted out the old anti-Semitic warhorse, the American Jewish lobby. Mate you are in good company there. Hitler thought the Jews were pulling the strings behind the scenes as well.

Paul.L wrote "Sam said

Talking in sound bites might seem impressive to the intellectually challenged on OLO. But for the rest of us you might like to speak in whole sentences and provide some evidence for your paranoia"

Happy to reply...but first answer one question...do you feel anything for the people of Iraq...what they have lost, endured and what they are going through now? and if so...what?

I just need to know I am replying to a human being...or a creature who has lost the last vestige of humanity and now living in your own isolated world and having thought process beyond comphension...just that it will help in my reply...I assumed that most people on OLO watched the daily news at the time of the Iraqi invasion...and assessed the situation as it was...and reasoned it through to its general end...

Sam
Ps~I've noticed that you dont seem to have a problem with unnecessarily insulting sentences...Im guessing you can take a dose too...its my best shot

Hmmmm. Marxism. Honestly I never read Marx (mea culpa). Do you think I should?

My philosophy goes something like this:

TRUTH (if possible) = GOOD
LIES = BAD

It's obvious that the whole thing is about extreme economics and power. The rest of us just gad about, weaving political bird nests while Rome burns. That's not good enough for me and I'm angry that politics has become just another commodity to be bought and sold. One's creed or race becomes just another wedge to be exploited. The real factor here is one's proximity to finite, precious resources. I'm sticking with that for now.

On that topic, here's a fascinating look at extreme economics from Naomi Klein (video and transcript):

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/17/1411235

Quote:

"....they have never been able to push through a radical free-market makeover in the absence of a large-scale crisis, i.e. the central myth of our time that democracy and capitalism go hand in hand is known to be a lie by the very people who are advancing it, and they will admit it on the record."

I think she might have hit the nail on the head. Why else do we detect that creepy whiff of fascism whenever our own government announces another economic reform?

Hopefully more Naomi Klein to come in future programs - that is, if you don't mind taking advice from an intelligent female.

- sure beats John Bolton.

Paul, please read a few books on Western history right back to Socrates.

Yes, it does show how we have learnt about the principles of capitalism from the Jews, as proven by the influence of the Rothschilds and their progeny the Rockefellers since the Reformation.

Please remember that the US Federal Reserve is largely managed by the Rockefellers and incidently is private and not government owned.

Incidently, Paull, as Maynard Keynes did express, capitalism in the right hands is still the best type of liberal managing system we can get, possibly these days more expressed in governments such as Norway and Sweden.

It was also Maynard Keynes who predicted the rise of a Hitler after WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles for the over-harsh treatment of a defeated Germany.

Keynes died near the end of WW2 and in fact began the wonderful Bretton Woods Agreement from which evolved the Marshall Plan to help former enemies Germany and Japan gain their feet again, which mainly meant forgiving the people foolish enough to back tyrants such as Hitler and Tojo and Hirohoto of Japan.

That is why we need to have genuine democracies, Paull, not democracies like America spoilt by the allowance of a weakened Constitution undemocratised by letting one personage, the President allowed to have the last say.

And lastly, Paull, talking commonsense more than religion, we do need the humility expressed by the Nazarene Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, in which curiously for a religion, philosophic reason is expressed more deeply than faith.

Thus in our conceptions of Middle East problems, we could learn from Nelson Mandela and his forgiveness of Arparthaid more than anyone in modern times.

Bushbred

I wonder if you could manage to GET OVER YOURSELF. It is supremely arrogant of you to continually suggest I am lacking in historical perspective whilst never providing any evidence of this.

Your obtsuseness never ceases to amaze me. So what if capitalism was originally a Jewish concept.

If you were being honest then you would have to admit that your views about Jewish domination of the capitalist system are remarkably similar to those propounded in Mein Kampf.

Keynes never experienced stagflation and in fact contended it could not occur, so his views on economics have been superseded. Maybe you need to read some economics.

I agree with you in some respects about the Versailles Treaty although the idea has a lot in common with the lefty’s favourite UN tool, SANCTIONS. As in ‘Why didn’t they give the Sanctions more time to work”

The Marshall plan would be criticised today, exactly in the manner that the US’s Iraq policy is being criticised. The left would say it was a self serving and manipulative act by a global oppressor.

The Marshall Plan was implemented as much to dispel poverty and deprivation as to consolidate democracy and capitalism. Exactly the goal of America in Iraq.

In your next sentence after praising the Americans for their Marshall Plan, you complain about the system which allowed it to occur. You can’t have it both ways.

I recall you complaining about winning hearts and minds a couple of posts ago. I think you deliberately misunderstand this concept and have instead decided it means pushing American values such as Christianity. This is patently not true.

I am a great admirer of Nelson Mandela. But he succeeded, in part, because he found a partner he could convince of a constructive way forward for the country of South Africa. We do not have an FW DeKlerk among the Islamo-Fascists.

Instead we have fundamentalists with whom negotiation is pointless. Should we wait 28 years for them, whilst they prosecute their war against us?

Paull, certainly I agree that Keynes had twin aims in the Bretton Woods Agreement, although he was a sick man at the time. First, taking lessons from the Treaty of Versailles, that revenge should never have been aimed at the German peoples but only at the leaders. Second, was to engineer the end of colonialism, which though partly successful aided by the wonderful tactics of Gandhi, was very much abused in the Middle East by America first in Iran on the pretext of knocking out Mossadeq as a Communist and then moving in on behalf of the oil as well as installing the Shah.

As any academic historian will tell you, Paull, the situation in the Middle East since has been a case of rhetorical palaver from the US and the UK about bringing democracy to the Middle East always coupled with the grab for contraband and hegemon.

I have Honors in this sort of problem, Paull, and I will not be talked out of what I have learnt.

Sam Said,

I absolutely feel for the people of Iraq. In fact I believe I care a lot more than your average lefty.

The standard Bush/Howard hating lefty is joyfully anticipating an embarrassing failure in Iraq and sees immediate withdrawl of troops from Iraq as the best way to facilitate this. What they are missing, or just don’t care to see, is what will happen when these troops are withdrawn.

Whilst there is little doubt that the current state of affairs is very painful for Iraqis, the conflict can best be described as a low level civil war. But the current gov’t is not strong enough to prevent an all out civil war including massacres and ethnic cleansing on a Rwandan scale were the Coalition to just get up and leave.

Many in the left mistakenly believe that the current conflict is Iraqis vs the Coalition. But this is patently not so. The vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq are inflicted by the respective militias of the different sects, particularly Sunni v Shia. This is not a conflict that will end when the coalition leaves. On the contrary, the vacuum created when Coalition troops leave will allow far greater levels of violence.

We have promised the Iraqi people we will give them freedom, democracy and the infrastructure to build a future. After the appalling abandonment of the Shia uprising to the vicious Saddamites after Gulf War 1, we owe the Iraqi people the future we promised them.

Bushbred,

You said “I have Honors in this sort of problem, Paull, and I will not be talked out of what I have learnt”

I have an honours as well mate, although how that is relevant I don’t know.

Sounds a lot like your aren’t interested in debate at all, but in repeating a tired old mantra. I think you are afraid that I have a few good points which contradict your firmly held world view

"Sounds a lot like your aren’t interested in debate at all, but in repeating a tired old mantra."
Posted by Paul.L, Thursday, 20 September 2007 6:53:49 PM

YOU can say that again, and again...., and again......,and...

We have caused genocide - note that word Paul.

And bad an' all as the theft of many billions of dollars is, it pales in comparison to the death and despoilation - and the razing of the very means by which the survivors must try to eke out a meagre existence. Iraq is still a genocide in progress even as I write. Who doubts it?

We could give them heaps of money as a kind of recompense - maybe make the supreme sacrifice and throw in the royalties we are swiping from the East Timorese - but I think that would be missing the point.

You see, it's not just about wealth anymore. We wrecked their society, their history, and we devalued their humanity. We shat on their humanity and we shat on their honour. Honour is a quaint notion that we abandoned during the last decade, because it didn't return a monetary profit.

- so as a nation, we have no solution to Iraq because we lack the basic human qualifications.

*

Liam, you got it right. If we had any sense of honour left, we would parachute the whole "war party" right into the middle of Fallujiah to face their victims. Honour would be served. Humanity would be served.

- and may the Iraqis have mercy upon their souls.

- it's still a far better deal than the Iraqis got from us.

Chris,

Genocide? Would you like to explain that one? Provide some proof? I wouldn’t think so. Most intelligent people know it’s not true.

It’s typical of the easily led to throw about slogans like Genocide. You should ask whoever gives you your opinions to explain to you how they came up with that one?

You admit you haven’t read Marx and I bet you’re probably not even sure what a Marxists is, yet you’ll take an Indian Marxists word, but write off journalists from our public broadcaster as biased. Aijaz Ahmed isn’t even close to being an unbiased observer. I read over some of his articles after you unwittingly foisted him upon OLO. He blames the fall of Saddam on the Generals of his army who made deals to save themselves and their men. He was actively hoping for the Coalition forces to be defeated by Saddam and his henchmen.

Do you support our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or are you also hoping that enough of them are killed that we will have to leave.

How have we razed the means by which people eke out an existence? Or do you blame us every time Al Qaeda or the militias blow up a power station or a water utility?

How did we wreck their history?

I’m not sure if you are referring to the museum looting but if you are you are that’s hardly destroying their history. Many of the exhibits that were reported missing were actually in the safe keeping of museum employees and were returned when the looting ended. Most of the valuable pieces that were stolen have since been retrieved; more will be returned in the future. But the Iraqis looted the museum. Not us.

I love your highly technical and intricately worded assessment of our involvement in Iraq. “ we shat on them”.
Mate its clear you have a vocabulary problem and more besides. Maybe you should have it looked at.

At least BushBred knows what he’s talking about even if he’s mostly wrong. But you're just sloganeering

Paul.

As long as you regard that "Indian Marxist" as just an "Indian Marxist", you will never be able to regard him as a fellow human being - possessing an intellect far greater than yours.

As for genocide - what is the magnitude of deaths that you are prepared to draw the line under?

- do give me your best estimate -

"Team Bush intends to 'transform the Middle East'"

Whenever you listen to any of their acolytes though - you would think it is OUR world that Muslims are going to 'transform'. This bunch of murdererers have always been very good at accusing the 'other' side of the 'possible' crimes they themselves are DEFINITELY committing.

Paul.L

as person whom 'feels' for other, giving same importance to this as other considerations in any situation, you wanted evidence to earlier post...

What I wrote comes under 'common knowledge' to whom followed Iraqi invasion and media reporting...bar para about government infiltration by 'vested'interests...which comes under power of 'a reasoning mind' I hold dear...

'a reasoning mind' is the most powerful asset any person has, and most useful, and served mankind well. Its about observing and assessing with hypothesis to test where ones reasoning raises doubts as final filter before accepting anything...your factual observation hold most power to you and over anything else...eg archimedes running naked shouting 'eureka' after 'observing' water in his bath and which led to goldsmith dead for polluting kings gold...to newton and apples...pythogaras observing ship masts to earth not flat but round...

From these came 'principles'...on which science since deciphered the details...to us enjoying technological benefits...and what judges use when legal disputes arise, read some case-laws on court sites on web to see what I mean...

So, now you understand the origins/evidence to my post. I tried to get actual media reportings but couldnt...you would have to go to tv channel libraries, or public library to get see old newspapers...and sbs documentary about how usa 'government' suspended all lawful process in Iraq...then moved 20billion of Iraq money back to Iraq...which mostly 'dissapeared', and now rely on 'no statue law local/international at the time applies' to prevent legal assessment of acts...

with time any hypothesis you test will get settled...just be aware of corporate media...they rely on big fat newspapers with lot of irrelevancy with limited factual information of one area, so in the 15min of your busy day to fit in reading to more likely to make a 'predetermined' conclusion...I read each sentence then assess it before moving to next, time consuming but becomes second nature with time and assisted me well, eg picuture/video of fact holds most value to me, then general fact, and question all opinions and conclusions...

Sam
Ps~noticed hardly any female view posts here, so whats your hypothesis to why...

Paull, many thanks for the compliments on English expression, but reckon I also should know what I am expressing about democracy when for 12 years I have been taking classes in the philosophy of history right back to the days of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

As regards both the origins and principles of the Greek word democracy, find below a test defining the most important persons regarding the growth of our Western democracy.

1. Choose either Socrates or Alexander the Great? Remember that a young Alexander was a pupil of Aristotle.

2.Choose either St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinas? Both were religious leaders during periods of the long Christian Dark Ages.

3. Choose either John Locke or Thomas Hobbes? While Locke’s philosophy inspired England’s 1688 Libertinian Glorious Revolution, Hobbes before Lock was a supporter of the former Royalist autocracy.

4. Choose either Fredriech Hegel or Immanuel Kant? While both were Christian 18th century German tutors, Hegel was one who believed that war was necessary as a cleanser of the national soul, Kant was a follower of the Enlightenment and is said to have been the originator of the need for a multipolar global government to pursue what he called Perpetual Peace. However, though both the League of Nations and the present United Nations grew from his plans, our modern democracies have more preferred the philosophies of Hegel.

Hegel's preference for the matrimonial logic of war, was first given the go-ahead with the breaking of Lock's democratic code by allowing the so-called ersatz English royalty to intrude with a last say, and even more stupidly, the present US President is allowed an even greater last say, both Lock and Kant's dreams of a genuine democracy blown away in the harsh nonsensical political winds, as is happening right now.