DamienJ, I reckon you've hit the nail on the head. “The world might be headed for some environmental/work choices/union boss/ peak oil/Muslim hordes/terrorist-inspired Armageddon, but I’m part of something and I’m saved – just don’t ask me what I believe”.

So many "believers" don't know what they believe - they just can't think for themselves, and want to be part of a club.

But it's not just confined to the "groovy churches", as you put it. Rather, I'd suggest that the supermarket Catholics are a good example of what you've described. I have encountered so many "Catholics" who would identify themselves as such in a census, and involve themselves in other club activities like inflicting religious rituals on tiny babies, but who do not adhere to even just the big ticket tenets of their "faith".

And the same goes for members of other mainstream religions.

As much as I have a huge problem with the way Pell conducted himself when wading into the debate about the recent conscience vote on stem cell research, I have to admit he's got a point. If you don't actually believe large chunks of the club's teachings, and if you don't want to adhere to their rules, you should opt out. (I reckon if people were honest with themselves in this regard, we'd see some very interesting figures in the next census...)

But that's cool, as long as they don't try to inflict their "beliefs" on me. Which brings me to the whackos who argue that secular humanism is a religion. Pay no heed - they're just trying to drag you down to their level. They can't seem to grasp the idea of simply not following a religion at all - of opting out altogether, instead of just picking a different club from the next bloke.

Hey Damian J.. firstly welcome. I've not seen your posts b4, maybe they are on different threads.

Speaking as an evangelical conservative myself, I can emphathise with your 'stand back and observe' approach. At least you did express 'interest'. My prayer is that your basic interest will not be like a candle blown out by the big wind of televangelists trying to wind you and other viewers up just b4 they hit you with the plea for support dollars.

A lot of contemporary Christianity is VERY superficial and shallows, and is comparable to a social club with a bit of a spiritual flavor.

A reminder of our Lords call to discipleship would shake some of them in their boots. "If any man would follow me, let him satisfy himself and take his ROLEX and come with me down to the Mall" Wait..there is something wrong with that :) aah..got it.. "let him deny himself and take up his CROSS and come after me" now that is the reality, the other vesion seems to be trotted out by many high profile TVangelicals.

Don't let the superficiality of some, become a barrier for yourself finding Christ as Lord of your own life.

Must have something to do with congregations understanding what clerics don't - even though it is mentioned in the bible on a number of occasions - no worship - just a life well lived.

When you've learnt the lesson - "The Golden Rule" - treat others as you yourself would wish to be treated, there is no need to keep going to school. The only reason religion is so much in the news these days is because George Bush - quickly followed by his 'cousins' Howard and Blair, hoisted the 'Christian' flag to summon support for an illegal war. Dog-whistle politics requires so little from politicians as explanation for their decisions.

One day - real justice will prevail - but not whilst the West is lead by such a shower of self-interested bigots. The biggest laugh of all is Christians going to war. Obviously none of them really understood what Christ's life was all about - but they do know there is a potentially large constituency of support if they can summon it without having to get too deep about being *Christian*.

Damien,

I know what you mean about the Hillsong/evangelical phenomenon.

To me it's like a big AMWAY convention, but instead of selling soap, they try to sell hope.

This type of motivational influence depends on the presence of a massed crowd to make the individual feel more insignificant while also being in the presence of great power. If they sat in total silence it would not work as well.

Hi Rache - completely agree with your comment:

"If they sat in total silence it would not work as well."

Ironically, this is where someone is most likely to find 'God'/peace.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments from DamienJ, Rache: BC2 I wholeheartedly concur re: the "if you don't like the rules, why stay part of the club?' argument... as far as I can see, any rational Catholic can feel entitled to throw out the bathwater that constitutes the shemozzle that is modern Catholicism, without fearing much in the way of baby collateral.

Rache, I have though of the AMWAY argument myself as it pertains to the new breed of happy clappies, as exemplified by Hillsong.
Alas, he who claim to be suspicious of its lack of depth (BOAZ) appears unable to resist the attempt to proselytise at every bloody opporunity he gets, however irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

BOAZ do you ever consider the convenience of the fact that this incredibly annoying, self-righteous, holier-than-thou inbuilt proselytism, so integral to your faith (and Islam), also happens to maximise the chances of whatever cult that one happens to belong to, garnering the greatest membership, power, wealth and influence possible? Sounds more like a well-constructed marketing plan than genuine belief to me, and is remarkably consistent between faiths.

As for runner, your ignorance never ceases to astound me. You have not the faintest idea of the contribution secular humanism has made to dragging the world from the mire of religious dogma and ignorance (nor how to spell, apparently) - go play with the other kids in the sandpit while the big people talk