The author is a realist. He says that we have to educate our kids for the real world, and that atheists and people of faith have to learn how to get along.

The atheists in their posts above are eternal optimists if they think religion is going to just disappear any time soon, simply because of their wishful thinking.

Faith and religion are integral parts of human society. They’ve been around for thousands of years and, the final judgement not withstanding, they’ll be around for many more, especially in this country with our strong Christian heritage.

“Religion is at the base of all wars and blood letting.” This is true because people are the cause of all wars and most people are religious. They all have a god they can refer to at time of war. That is, except for all the atheist wars that have been fought in the name of atheism.

One difference between the atheists and myself is that they seem to be under the belief, like the people in Communist Russia, that the state has the ultimate responsibility to educate our kids. I don’t.

I take that responsibility for my family. I want to prepare my son to thrive in this world and be prepared for the next. If my son can’t read and write, I am prepared to teach him. If he turns out to be a lawyer, street sweeper, bank teller or bank robber, I will take some of the blame. If the state helps me to educate my son, then I’m happy to work within that system.

One similarity between atheists and myself is that we both pay taxes, we both contribute to state education. If atheists think that Christians are so weak that they’re going to lie down and give total control to atheists and humanists to run an education system that we also helped to build, then they’re mistaken.

Instead, we must learn to get along in a spirit of tolerance. In any locality parents must find common values and principles that can be imparted to the young in their community.

CJ "yes"

Hughie... I half expected a bit of a 'poke' on that, so.. no drama.

I tend to agree with you on the issue of 'inviting' to Christ or Buddha or Mohammad or whatever in schools.
Secular schools are indeed a place for education on issues, rather than sectarian invitations.

I am of the understanding that RE classes are more on the lines of 'informing about' rather than 'inviting to' when it comes to Christian RE. I'm quite happy about that, because the life and teaching of Jesus is sufficient invitation in itself. Simply knowing 'about' is probably enough for the open heart to want to know more.

I have no problem with the comparing and contrasting of various faiths in schools.

I kind of worry though, that if the Islamic idea of 'paradise' is presented even as 'information' to young 15 yr old boys.....it might be too much and there will be a rush to the mosques :) I can't see the gals making quite such a rush though.. hmmm wonder why ?

Hughie..I have to agree also that such 'weird' ideas of paradise/heaven "repeatedly taking the virginity of many girls created specially for that purpose" are quite different from the Christian view. The emphasis in Christianity is on the Lion laying down with the lamb..(peace) and on being flooded with love of God, no more sickness, dying etc.... its sexually neutral.

I wonder what those who claim 'Religions are invented by men' make of this contrast. ie.. the 'inflicting of pain on a daily basis on virginal women for the sake of male sexual satisfaction' with the 'Peace, happiness and love,.... but no sex' of Christianity.

I am of the view that anything involving the fulfillment of 'male' desires for triumphal sex is closer to what might be called 'male inventions'

Does this mean Christians don't care about sex ? of course not. We just accept that it's role is 'this' worldly and the means of reproduction, and that heaven is way better than that.

Mick V, That is how the phrase 'moral high ground' came into being....

Why do you elevate yourself to a position of being the arbiter of decency and moral values. Referring to 'the atheists' in a derogatory manner as though we lack any moral fibre or standards.

Not nice Mick. ANY belief system or lack thereof has its good guys and its bad guys. Need I remind you of the lack of moral fibre within the Christian Church where a good number of men of the cloth have shown a distinct disregard for decent moral values, and have used their positions to get away with it; sometimes for decades?

Peter, Lev, Hughie, Maricas…. What a great start to this discussion…
The original article states: “In a democracy leaving the child free to make her own decisions about belief is a foundational principle for both religious and secular educators.” So true. but when chaplains come into classes of five year-olds offering sweeties, colourful toys and games and engaging theatrical performances presenting supernatural events as reality, what chance have they of forming rational decisions?
The ability to think, use logic, weigh up arguments, consider alternatives, compare… are complex mental operations that take years to develop. If an educator compared the beliefs of ancient Norsemen, ancient Greeks and Romans, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Incas, Jews, Muslims and Christians in such a way that they could be understood as the once useful myths they are, and not as ultimate universal truths, then that would be fine, but that is not what happens. The chaplain/religious instructor sneers at all other beliefs and promotes his own as the one true faith.
Universal moral values and virtues such as kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity, humour, gentleness, equality, listening, respect for the elderly, love of children, and diligent respect for the land, plants and animals are essential for survival. They are the property of humanity, not religion. Surely these ‘missionaries’ should be prosecuted for false advertising?

CJ Morgan: "Does BOAZ_David - or other members of his Brethren sect - go into state schools to provide Religious Education classes?"

BOAZ_David: "CJ 'yes' "

I can't think of a better argument against RE than that. It's appalling that religious nutters like Boazy (or other members of his oddball Brethren sect) are allowed into state schools in order to peddle their loopy ideas among impressionable kids.

It beggars belief that they would always restrict themselves to teaching about their religion, and not stray into stirring up "righteous anger" against, for example, homosexuality or Islam. While that reprehensible mission might be tolerated among adults in forums such as this, it has absolutely no place in a school.

That is not to say that children shouldn't be taught about religion/s. However, the subject should be presented by qualified teachers within the context of history, social studies, literature etc. If parents want their kids to receive religious indoctrination, they should send them to religious schools or Sunday school.

A study group at the Vatican recently said "In a Europe (1st World?) that suffers from widespread atheism, an intolerance of the truth, an allergy to the faith and, at times, a kind of Christophobia, parents are invited to give life, educate their children and transmit the faith so that the youth can make mature and responsible decisions in full freedom, and holiness becomes a fascinating project to hand on with joy to new generations."

Now the big challenge for school RE programs is to define, yet alone teach, 'truth' and 'holiness' and any bearing they may have on "Universal moral values and virtues such as kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity, humour, gentleness, equality, listening, respect for the elderly, love of children, and diligent respect for the land, plants and animals are essential for survival. They are the property of humanity, not religion."

The term 'Christians' is first recorded in describing the actions of the Church in caring for each other - the expression of their love. I am not too sure Pharoah or Caesar exercised too many 'universal moral values,' indeed, State administrations are often perplexed by Church concerns for the unborn, disabled and eligibly euthanisable, but, most of that comes down to economics and there being no value in suffering.

So perhaps the real challenge is to practice what we profess: NICENESS - as Maxwell Smart would put it - and if we want to attribute it to God or our well formed intellect, then so be it.

Myth or human perfection, both often seem fanciful, but also desirable.