Oligarch

You first said the Austro-Hungarian Empire succeeded. Now, you’re saying that we both agree it failed – but for different reasons. Anyway, leave that to one side.

You accuse me of intellectual dishonesty, but you conclude: “…my point still stands that ethnically divided states only hold together through authoritarian rule.”

Your argument seems to be:

1. Multi-ethnic, multi-lingual and multi-cultural nations cannot survive without an ethnic/cultural majority but can survive with authoritarian rule.

2. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual and multi-cultural entity without an ethnic/cultural majority and only succeeded through authoritarian rule (or did it fail?).

3. Therefore, Australia will fail if it continues as a multicultural nation (or alternatively succeed only if it establishes authoritarian rule or maintains its ethnic/cultural majority?).

Now, in what sense can contemporary multicultural Australia be described as an ‘ethnically divided state’ like the Austro-Hungarian Empire? In what sense was the Austro-Hungarian Empire a multicultural society in the same sense as Australia is today? What is the Australian equivalent to the two Austro-Hungarian monarchs? Or the Australian equivalent to the Emperor? What’s the Australian equivalent to the Empire’s 11 nation states? Or its unworkable official policy on linguistic equality?

How can the rise and fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire offer any lessons for 21st century multicultural Australia?

The term ‘multicultural’ is a post WW2 invention. It arose in the context of nations – Canada first and then Australia – that were modern democracies facing challenges associated with diversity. No-one I know seriously suggests that English not be our national language. No-one I know seriously suggests that Australia should be politically partitioned along ethnic lines. No-one I know seriously suggests Australia’s ethnic/cultural majority is losing its grip on power in Australia.

Would it be intellectually dishonest to suggest that the likelihood of Australia losing its ethnic/cultural majority is an extremely remote prospect?

Finally, Oligarch tries the scare campaign: “it's fair to say that Australia's future is becoming increasingly non-European.” Facts: Australia’s population: European - 89.3%; Asian - 5.1%; Middle Eastern - 1.2%; South Asian - 1.6%; and Aboriginal - 2.3%. Scary, eh?

Yes Frank, I said you were for the ALP. You brought them into the conversation and highlighted their web links to back up your understanding of multiculturalism. Don't start back-peddling now. As for my line on MC, it goes back to it's introduction in Canada and Liberal Canadian politics and I have followed it as Liberals brought it about in other countries. Countries that did not have any similarity to Canada's political make up of having two distinct founding Nations. The reason for their bringing culture to the political forefront. Quebecers whinging about being neglected because they were francophone, and using that for political leverage.
To day multiculturalism is used by all political parties to procure votes (promises based on race, ethnicity, religion and culture) in communities that wouldn't traditionally vote for them or to encourage them to vote again for that party. Your twisting and misquoting my words don't really help you but hey, I know facts are a discount in your world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1725128.stm
Padam Singh is a development officer for the Ethnic Minority Enterprise Centre in Glasgow. He is Seikh and is the Treasurer at his local Gurdwara (Seikh temple).

Your (sic) was more evidence of you jumping to conclusions.

Once again. If your such an advocate of Multiculturalism please show me how it's helped the Aboriginals. 200 years on and 35 years of MC and the Aboriginals still can't buy decent recognition or a voice in Parliament. I guess that for them being kept on the dole ought to be enough? It's not like they're bringing in millions of foreign dollars and buying property. Nice system your barracking for. No money no voice.

Aqvarivs, You really should pay more attention. The reason I highlighted the ALP speeches on multiculturalism was NOT, as you allege, to back up my understanding of multiculturalism. It was in response to Banjo who had said: “Both major political have finally woken up to the fact that MC is divisive and they both have dumped it in favour of integration.” I was demonstrating that this simply wasn’t true of the ALP.

Looking again at my post on that matter, the point is clear – that I was showing the ALP’s position on multiculturalism was the opposite to what Banjo claimed. So your complaint that I am “twisting and misquoting” your words is a bit hollow (or to use your words ‘intellectually dishonest’?).

I read the perfectly benign BBC article you cited. Thank you for drawing attention to the typo.

Your cheap jibe about multiculturalism and Indigenous Australians – where you say: “I guess that for them being kept on the dole ought to be enough?…No money no voice” - says more about you than about Indigenous Australians or multiculturalism.

The over-riding political system under which we live in this country – you, me and Indigenous people – is democracy, and the over-riding economic system is free enterprise capitalism. Multiculturalism is a mere social policy that is an element within democracy and capitalism.

The serious problems facing Indigenous Australians need to be explained and resolved within that broader context. It is callow and shallow to blame the recalcitrant nature of problems of Indigenous Australians on multiculturalism. Points scoring at the expense of Indigenous Australians is shameful.

ATTABOY FrankGol!

What extraordinary arrogance, that 'we' pass opinions on 'their' culture. This country is an amalgam. Its only original occupants are Aboriginal people, and yes I DO know that that IS arguable. How far back do you want to go?

I still retain much of the culture of the two countries of my birthright,-(one is the UK,- do I pass muster?);-no apologies to you!! But Australia is home.

Greeks/Italians/Chinese/Vietnamese/................and yes...;those people of 'middle-eastern appearance' who have a legal right to be here, AND retain much of THEIR cultures have the same resident status as you. Australia is their home. Australia IS made up of all these cultures. That is what Australia IS.

Who the hell are you to pass opinions on them as if they had lesser rights? Where the hell is the us/them thing coming from?

What in the name of decency gives the White the right to look down on 'them'. Because you ARE doing that.

Get over it. This country IS multicultural, and that is a wonderful plus, NOT a minus.

Great moments in debate:
“No-one I know seriously suggests that English not be our national language. No-one I know seriously suggests that Australia should be politically partitioned along ethnic lines. No-one I know seriously suggests Australia’s ethnic/cultural majority is losing its grip on power in Australia.”

Gosh thanks Frank -we had some real concerns there -but your little spot survey showed they were totally unfounded!

Sorry Frank but in your haste to offer belittlement and more twisting of reality you didn't catch the reference to the article. It was two fold. One, that Seikh was spelled correctly and not your (sic) which as you confess was a mere typo, which we both know was BS, and two, more importantly the mans employment, 'a development officer for the Ethnic Minority Enterprise Centre'. Now, I suggest that only under political and social multiculturalism. Where culture plays odd man out. Will you find any necessity for such an institution as an 'Ethnic Minority Enterprise Centre'. It should matter not in any aspect of a nations social concern whether your of a ethnic minority. Unless of course, if being that ethnic minority gets you something from the other ethnics that make up the majority. And sport, I'm not point scoring for your trivializing of Aboriginal society. I'm pointing out observable facets of Australian practice of multiculturalism. It's a divisive and unfair system giving advantage to those who can afford to manoeuver with in the stated policies of multiculturalism. I really don't mind blind emotional barracking for MCism. I do mind people who blindly advance the rhetoric as gospel with out stopping to view the consequences of such policies at street level.
Ethnic Minority Enterprise Centre indeed!