The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Come on in - the quicksand's fine: my part in the energy crisis > Comments

Come on in - the quicksand's fine: my part in the energy crisis : Comments

By Chris Shaw, published 12/6/2007

I see false leaders, false gods, false morality, bizarre economics and delusion masquerading as science.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. Page 3
  5. 4
  6. All
Best piece of writing I have seen in a long time! Now, what are we all going to DO about it?
Posted by K£vin, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 6:40:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Crystal clear, concise, unarguable on nearly every point, great stuff Chris Shaw.
Do you think powerdown & relocalisation can 'make it all okay', assuming the electorate realised its real situation? I don't think the latter is impossible, theres lots to learn from the Rights success in pushing a few internally consistant messages and we shouldn't underestimate the importance of the volume and variety of bad information in the bad choices we continue to make.

fluff: haven't heard of any public examination of ADF fuel vulnerability, tho they would get priority, as would many larger businesses & of course government, under Liquid Fuels Emergency Act 1987.
Sohbet Karbuz has done some good work on US military, which of course is a much larger and busier beast.
http://energybulletin.net/29925.html
http://energybulletin.net/18056.html

Interesting comments, and the lack of controversy where in past would be flamed. Not sure what scope you meant K$vin by 'what to do', hope you've found online at least ROEOZ@yahoo.groups & www.aspo-australia.org.au, the latter (ASPO Aus.) have two events coming up and their submissions to Senate cmte. make interesting reading if interested.
Posted by Liam, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 8:19:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Don't really think I belong here, but I'll have a go....
It's true we've been spoilt by cheap energy, meaning high yield energy returns for low production energy imputs. Can remember too well the repercussions in the 70's of quadrupled oil prices and the economic consequences. Not pretty.
We can say with certainty that we are into a period of uncertainty about future energy costs, and probably, definitely, a period of increasing energy costs. Whatever eventuates, we are confronted by demand for change. And change is happening. Solar, wind tidal,nuclear,hydro are all proven technological alternatives awaiting their chance to shine. Other technologies like 'hot rocks' and hydrogen beckon. The economics of these existing alternatives depend on improved processes and the escalating price of hydrocarbon energy. While its not economical now to go solar at home, the time is not too far off when it will be.
Managing the changes will be difficult but this has started already. We've been accustomed to governments feeding us energy from centralised grid systems, and any change to this will largely depend on us- the way we vote and the demand we create. I am forever amazed at how people disassociate themselves from their government and them turn around and squeal about how 'the guvments gotta do sumthink'.How many of us pay the premium for green electricity available to us already?
If in 5 years fuel prices have doubled and one way or another a carbon tax is levied, the economics of domestic solar, gas conversions and electric cars will be radically altered. Just as it will be for large scale wind and solar-thermal power generation. I don't know the current relative costs or costs in the future 5-10 years out, but the equation is, and will continue to move in favour of clean, green substitutes.
So keep up the clamour postees, it's working.
Posted by palimpsest, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 8:25:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Continued
On another tack- money always was and always will be "a medium of exchange"; despite efforts by capitalists and lefties alike to abuse it, to varying levels of success over time. But it is still the tool by which we exchange the goods and services that we produce.
And the value we place on energy is pretty high judging by the noise. And its my guess that we will be willing to cough up quite a bit to stay on OLO; even if it means we'll be doing a lot of pedalling after the sun goes down.
Posted by palimpsest, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 8:35:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I’ll defy local convention and resort to a level of optimism. Perhaps I am deluded and someone can set me straight.

When crude oil reaches US$45 a barrel or so, it becomes competitive to make diesel from coal. You can even use poor quality coal and capture some of the CO2 during the process, because the gasification of the coal produces CO2 gas in the mix. I have heard anecdotally that there are two Australian proposals in the pipeline. Sasol has been doing this for decades using technology developed in the early 20th century. There’s also natural gas to liquid processes, and we are not at the end of our gas reserves either.

If renewables are your focus, and I think this is the long term objective anyway, there is gasification of woody biomass, which is a mimic of the coal to liquid process, using wood instead of coal. More expensive than coal, but the Germans are building a large scale pilot plant now, or it might even be in production. I believe that this can produce diesel for about 0.5 euro per litre ex-refinery.

So I’m unconvinced that economics is unrelated to reality. These old technologies have just been waiting for the price of crude oil to increase and now they are starting to come into use
Posted by Rick, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 9:34:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
fyi's..
-
Extract from Hansard South Australian Parliament Tuesday 5 June 2007

Ms FOX (Bright)[Labor]: I rise today to speak on a matter which concerns me deeply and I did not know anything about it until very recently when I had a street corner meeting. A constitu­ent came to see me and he said, with great faith in his eyes, `I'm sure you know all about peak oil theory.' I beamed happily and said, `No, I have never heard of it.'

The Hon. M.J. Atkinson: What's that?

Ms FOX: Peak oil theory, and before anybody says, `Oh, this is not really important' or accuses me in a way that Mr Howard has accused Mr Garrett of being a fanatic, I point out that in February the Senate, via the Standing Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport, published a 218-page report on Australia's future oil supply and alterna­tive transport fuels. [PDF] That is because they are worried that we will run out of oil, and they should be worried because we are going to run out of oil. .."

http://www.energybulletin.net/30903.html
Posted by Liam, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 11:26:38 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. Page 3
  5. 4
  6. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy