At the risk of setting off yet another debate about abortion, events in China illustrate why I am pro-choice and not "pro-abortion". The one-child policy is a human rights violation just as anti-abortion policies in countries like El Salvador violate human rights. It is authoritarian meddling in people's reproductive choices - pretty much the epitome of totalitarianism.

Amnesty cops a lot of flak from governments around the world as if they're being picked on. Note Manny Waks' whinge about human rights groups targeting Israel. The Chinese Communist Party is the biggest mass murderer in history. Worse than Hitler and Stalin. If Amnesty are giving China more publicity about its crimes then they have their priorities right.

Let's put this in context first: 1) In a province (State) of 46 million a group of villagers rioted. 2)The villagers initiated the riot - not the police or government. 3) The 5 reported - but unverified - dead were government officials. 4)No arrests or retaliation ensued.

The rest of the world has always held China's huge population as a threat on a number of levels so - apart from mass extermination - what measures other than population control could be undertaken?

The penalties for transgressing these laws are harsh. However, they are monetarily, not physically, harsh. Every citizen in China is aware of the penalties that attend those who break the law - just as we in The West are aware of the penalties that attend the breaking of our laws.

Those who can't pay up have property attached and confiscated: - as anyone in the West who has had their own possessions attached for failure to pay a fine can attest, this isn't good.

Offhand I can't think of any riots in USA or Oz where police and Government officials were injured or killed that have not resulted in subsequent arrests? But, hey, maybe I'm wrong?

I consider the inflammatory, half-baked and truth-twisted rhetoric from this and many other ill-informed authors whenever the dreaded word "Communist" is invoked as part of the reason so many people are continually looking for boogy-men under the bed.

Recently, in OLO I read a comment from a woman who had accepted as truth a "fact" she had heard about female workers in China being made to work 10 hours at a stretch without even toilet breaks. She wondered at the strength of these women's bladder control. Surely another huge difference between those deadly commies and us, huh?

I burst out laughing on first reading her comment but it has since given me much cause for reflection.

Human rights violations? Sure, China is guilty. So is USA and Australia.

If we seriously want a brave new world lets stop throwing stones from our glass houses first.

But they buy our minerals. Our economy grows. I can buy a bigger television. Nothing else matters.

Chinese communist regime is against the Olympic Spirit

Here is something that seriously needs to be exposed and understood at every level of International society.

A report directing and coordinating the explicit espionage campaign to screen out all those the communist regime deem not to be suitable to attend or participate in the 2008 Olympic Games thats inside China and outside of China has been issued by Chinas Ministry of Public Security

Title
Ministry of Public Security's Olympics Investigative Notice Reveals CCP's Desperation, Violation of Human Rights, and Opposition to the Olympic Spirit

to read full investigative report visit http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/5/25/86066.html

"Since early-April, the Chinese police have been secretly issuing "Notification on Strictly Carrying Out Background Investigations on Candidates for the Olympics and Performing a Pre-Selection Test" to each province, autonomous region, police stations and bureaus in municipalities directly under the Central Government.The notification, reveals the evil Party's weakness, and clearly shows that it is against the Olympic spirit and violates human rights.

"No reason will be given to the public why anyone may not be allowed to be present at the event. Everything has to be kept confidential."

Please send this report to your National Olympic Office and the IOC and ask the questions? Is this what the Olympic Spirit or Charter is about? Ask them to enforce the Chinese communist regime to abide by the rules of the Olympic Charter and why the communist regimes promise to in improve Human Rights has not been kept and instead the communist reimg has made them worse in the lead up to the Games.

China's shortcomings appear minor compared to the hell America has created in Iraq.

If only Carey was as critical of his ideological leader - Cheney.

History has shown that true democracies do not go to war with each other. In an increasingly violent and unstable world, with terrorism at our door, the best tool we have as Human Beings to achieve peace and preserve our way of life is to support governments and groups who advance democracy and to vigorously oppose those who incite hatred and violence.

Plantagenet, it is impossible to get the real news out from China because of tight suppression of all news in and out of China.

Iraq is in our news everyday. But i can assure that the horror crimes committed on masses of Chinese citizens from the communist regime today are no less than hitlers Genocide,Russia's communist rule, IN fact how much history do you really know about Communist China rule?

80 million people have died from unnatural causes in the last 60 years under the rule of communism in China . Today people think China has changed and it has economically yet no steps have been taken towards democracy while increasing its wealth and nuclear weapons have occurred. Suppression torture execution and Genocide of Chinese people continues today.

The betrayal of our western conscience as we continue to trade while turning a blind eye to the horrors committed in China have rendered the west as accomplices to this Genocide in China.

Democracy is not perfect but it way better than an unelected brutal communist regime with no respect for any human life that does not tow the line.

Support a Boycott of the Beijing Games, speak to your Local MP and ask why we are still trading with communist regime when India has 1.1 billion people and is the largest democracy in the world and has the same need for resources that China has.

You may wonder why no main stream media reports critically on China?
John Carey is doing a great service by posting his news on China so freely. You could also check out The Epoch Times Newspaper- a media who is independent from any financial ties with Chinese communist regime.

http://en.epochtimes.com/change_edition.html

Unlike in a democracy, or a union, one can lose ones life in China, if one is perceived corrupt (read: in breach of party concensus).

Just like this bloke:-
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21813423-5005961,00.html

Gadget - just like in democratic America, Zeng Xiaoyu received the death penalty for murder. Though he only went to trial on the 10 cases which were the subject of the trial his culpability in the deaths of many more persons is beyond doubt. The sentence is also subject to appeal - just like in democratic America.

Forsooth Banana

I'm talking about the the verifiable NOW.

Carray may typify many things you love. He is a big strong ex US(S) Navy man with a hunter killer nuclear submarine background and more quietly Taiwan.

But that is of tiny little consequence in the great scheme of Republican window dressing.

Good luck in your pre 1990 views of China.

Way behind the times Plantagenet,

You have just made my point all the more true by your lack of information about what is really going on in China today. And I cannot blame you for that as I said the media have all been co opted in one form or another. Look at Murdoch for one horrendous example and see how much he owns and who he does the most business with and how so many journalist are complaining that press freedom has been eroded and is suppressed.

Below is link to a Chinese security document that Clearwisdom has translated from Chinese into English a report directing and coordinating the explicit espionage campaign to screen out all those the communist regime deem not to be suitable to attend or participate in the 2008 Olympic Games.

Ministry of Public Security's Olympics Investigative Notice Reveals CCP's Desperation, Violation of Human Rights, and Opposition to the Olympic Spirit

"Since early-April, the Chinese police have been secretly issuing "Notification on Strictly Carrying Out Background Investigations on Candidates for the Olympics and Performing a Pre-Selection Test" to each province, autonomous region, police stations and bureaus in municipalities directly under the Central Government.The notification, reveals the evil Party's weakness, and clearly shows that it is against the Olympic spirit and violates human rights.Inside China and outside of China."

"No reason will be given to the public why anyone may not be allowed to be present at the event. Everything has to be kept confidential."

Read the rest of the document and one begins to wonder who exactly will be going to games....

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/5/25/86066.html
This is scary stuff and an example of what the communist regime still does today

JB, since the arrest of Zeng Xiaoyu in 2005 the Chinese have naturally been skittish about drugs. The memoranda you refer to are, as you specified each time you posted the same information, internal memos. Of course they want screening to take place. Naturally they don't want to turn up with egg on their faces if one of their athletes/trainers etc turns up with drugs in his system. Especially as they are now pioneering new drug testing technology they have come up with and that, yes, the whole of the rest of the world knows about and is watching with interest.

I'm a writer currently living and working in China. The scariest thing I have to contend with is the enthusiasm and dedication with which the whole population took to capitalism.

Before I came here I lived in a place where many people were afraid to go outdoors at night. A country where I and my children frequently went hungry. I could get fined for crossing a road, listening to music, making up my own mind about my own safety, or sitting on my local beach toasting the sunset. People abused and fought each other in public, road rage happened, young girls were not safe either in or out of the house and the elderly were either ignored and maltreated in nursing homes or were looked upon as targets. Drugs proliferated and even if I chose not to indulge I could (and did) find them turning up in my drink. THAT was scary.

Phone taps - though illegal - happened, detention without trial was allowed, police could enter my house without my permission.

So, as regards where you live and I currently live: - spot the difference?

I am not advancing any form of government over another nor any society over another. On the contrary, I am merely repeating at length what I said before: people in glass houses...etc. etc. Especially if the stones you are lobbing are at a house and its occupants you have never even met.

JB

Thanks for the link. However its content is fairly predictable. Undeniably China is a one Party state with stronger pressures for conformity than the West.

You have your interests in the Beijing Olympics - I have an interest in the US causing the destruction of Middle Eastern countries by its dominant military means to support its oil needs. Tens of thousands of Iraqis would be alive today if the US didn't drag the sectarian genie out of the bottle. The US thought Iraq's liberation would be an easy Shiite/Chalibi led walkover - but is still there.

The violent pan Islamic reaction to US troops toting guns in Baghdad merely provides the US with a perpetual justification to stay there as a a policemen clearly uninterested in Iraq's sea of oil...

Returning to China do you think China's Olympic security regime is in proportion to the horror of Iraq? After 9/11 China like all major countries increased its security measures against terrorism, particularly for major events.

Anyone involved in an Olympics these days, be it in Beijing, Birmingham or New York (sometime) will undergo police/security service checking. Checks would cover criminality and political extremism.

The Chinese are not unusual.

HI Romany,

OOps sorry my bad posting same article twice.. But i fail to see how the internal document is all about drug screening. So I have copied a very small portion of the document for all to see and make your own minds up. Otherwise please visit the site for the full revealing paranoia of the imploding communist regime

Excerpt from the report on who will be investigated and spied on and barred from entering China for 2008 GAmes

1. China's Enemies:

(1) Overseas hostile forces and hostile organization members.


(2) Dalai Lama's Government of Tibet in Exile and members of its affiliated organizations.

2. Falun Gong and Other (slanderous term deleted) Organization and Members of Other Harmful Qigong


5. Media People who endanger the Olympic Games:

(1) Staff of any foreign media hostile to the People's Republic of China.

(2) Staff of media who publish anti-communist articles and those who viciously slander the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the Chinese government.


(1) Foreign non-governmental organizations that are supported by foreign governments and who are known to be involved in penetrating, overthrowing and destruction of the CCP and the Chinese government.

7. Dangerous elements, consistent appealers and other individuals who are known to be strongly discontent with the CCP



8. Individuals who filed for investigation and prosecution by judicial authorities, or those under criminal and administrative orders.

(1) Individuals who filed a complaint with public security authorities
here s a quote from The View From There By: Ian Welsh

"China's problems are not small – most of the country is still 3rd world, there is widespread corruption and violence and job riots are very common. But because China is riding the ragged edge; because the Communist Party is well aware that it could lose power; there is a huge drive to make the economy work for as many people as possible."

A once spiritual people the Chinese will never be satisfied with just economics. Since the communist regime is atheist that is why they persecute Falun Gong.their end is unavoidable and they know it..

JB, thank you for providing the fuller tanscript which, as you say, goes beyond drug screening. However, I don't see that it differs in any significant way from the precautions taken by any government to screen out dissidents or terrorists etc before an international event. Plantaganet's comments apply here too.

Yes, the language, translated from Chinese, sounds rather quaint to those of us used to the euphemistic side-stepping of English, but that's pretty much a question of semantics.

And yes, the government is atheistic, but the Chinese Christian Church is not stopped from proselytising both inside China and out - delegations visited the US last year and are in Germany currently. Many of my students are Christian, some are Buddhist - so the barriers which used to be enforced so strongly are breaking down.

I'm also in complete agreement with Plantagenet about the US. When it comes to spying and skulking and skullduggery the US organisations such as the CIA, FBI and even the FDA have, and continue to commit the most outrageous acts.

The most outstanding difference to me on a personal level is that many Western citizens live in a state of perpetual paranoia, stress and aggression while Chinese citizens live freer lives in these respects.

Romany, may I ask do you live in China?

All religions that are allowed to practice in China do so in the name of communism. They must register all members names and addresses and all teachings scriptures etc for approval by the Ccp authorities before they are allowed to practice. Is this real Buddhism or Christianity . No it not.

Communist regime fears FAlun Gong because we will not register nor submit our beliefs or teachings for approval from an atheist communist regime. And still we not only survive but are making progress all around the world in exposing this genocide committed on FAlun Gong. Falun Gong is one of 2 issues the communist regime is most fearful of.

I am perplexed at your lack of knowledge on these matters. Either you are living in China or some place where you do not read world news..

The Chinese people have lived in constant fear since the unelected communist regime violently took power 60 years ago.

We in the West have lost our ability to know right from wrong as we do not wish to believe that the communist regime is evil . How can it be anything else when it murders millions of its own people because they practice truth compassion and tolerance?

Please check out The Epoch Times newspaper if you want the real uncensored truth about whats happening in China today. The Epoch Times does not do business with the communist regime and is owned by ethical journalists who can no longer abide western and eastern media who are owned by money moguls and betraying theirs and the worlds consciences.
http://en.epochtimes.com/change_edition.html
Please check out my site too which presents Good stories coming from China as well as the truth about all those suffering under the communist regime .
http://www.atruechineserenaissance.blogspot.com

Romany

re "I'm also in complete agreement with Plantagenet about the US. When it comes to spying and skulking and skullduggery the US organisations such as the CIA, FBI and even the FDA have, and continue to commit the most outrageous acts."

I made no such criticism of the CIA or FBI nor the security services in China or the UK for that matter. My point regarding China was that its Olympic security measures don't seem ununusual and will probably be much the same as security measures for the UK Olympics and sebsequent Olympics in the US.

What is "outrageous" is the Howard's Government's devotion to the US' opportunistic invasion of Iraq (for oil) and controlled burn of the Iraqi people. If there is a US intelligence agency most culpable that would be the US Defence Intelligence Agency
(DIA) which Rumsfeld reshaped as his own covert action instrument. Rumsfeld was also unhappy that he could not control the broadbased collection functions of the CIA - so he duplicated this function within the DIA (badly).

All this is esoteric for most but a long way from simple blanket blaming of US intelligence. Similarly the various Chinese security/intelligence bodies would have their own strengths, weaknesses and mindset problems - but details are few.

If anyone is interested in covert action in Iraq see http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/2006/10/covert-action-program-in-iraq.html

Pete

Plantaganet - yeah, sorry mate, did not mean to appear to be putting words in your mouth. It was actually a question of sloppy writing. Needed a new paragraph after: "I am in complete agreement with Plantaganet" for my own comments on other matters American.

JB. No, I am not ignorant of the matters of which you speak. Researched extensively before I came.

I realise however, that we are coming from two different directions. Yours, given your affiliations, is understandable.

No Governments anywhere are fueled by ultruism. That's partly my point.

Yet our tendencies are to judge entire populations by the policies of their leaders - which leads to the intolerance we believe gives us the right to go in and blast civilian populations in our zeal.

I, for example, have frequently to counter accusations of racism and inhumanity as a result of the Australian Government's attitude to refuges as perceived by other nations - as if I spent all my time in Oz. patrolling the waters and personally pushing boat people back to where they came from.

Intolerance, distrust and ultimately hatred of other groups - be they Russian, Feminist, Chinese, Green, Christian or whatever, often stems from ignorance. All too often people rely on other peoples truths, a mish-mash of popular media sentiments, hearsay, second-hand sources and rumour to form their opinions. If you are a regular reader of threads in OLO you will have seen ample illustrations of this. And that's the other point I am trying to make.

People are not really "free" anywhere. But if we felt more unity with others and less fear, then perhaps as a global population we would be more successful in attaining peace and reform than we are currently?

Such sentiments, expressed in this forum, usually bring down a storm of accusations of being a Lefty, an Ivory Tower inhabitant, etc. etc. however, I give them voice to show that perhaps you and I are not actually at odds but, like most of the world's population, are concerned in different aspects of the same quest.

HI Romany,

Yes i agree with you on all your points.I am sorry if i have not made my position clear. I and all Falun Gong practitioners have no enemy's.

The 1.3 billion Chinese population have been duped thru 60 years of massive propaganda campaigns and violent revolutions from the unelected communist regime We do not hate nor blame the Chinese people as they are victums trying to survive.

When this genocide stops and the communist regime disintegrates in the near future only five of the nine men in the Chinese politburo will be held accountable in an Intentional court of justice.

All the Chinese people who tortured murdered persecuted FAlun Gong will be forgiven because they were only doing these things to survive and keep their families alive too. We have always said to the Chinese people just stop and all will be forgiven.And this message has provoked immense compassion amongst many former persecutors of Falun Gong in China,

We hear reports that many organizations, local authorities will now no longer persecute FAlun Gong even at risk of being incarcerated or persecuted themselves. They are choosing a higher authority to answer to - their conscience..

This is something seriously lacking in the west amongst some who are in power, who know the extent of this persecution and horror committed on living human beings yet they still (thru fear) choose to not upset the communist regime, These people though acting in fear are completely lost for they are no longer able to discern right from wrong . This is something we/ Falun Gong are most concerned about.

Romany said: "Before I came here I lived in a place where many people were afraid to go outdoors at night. A country where I and my children frequently went hungry. I could get fined for crossing a road, listening to music, making up my own mind about my own safety, or sitting on my local beach toasting the sunset. People abused and fought each other in public, road rage happened, young girls were not safe either in or out of the house and the elderly were either ignored and maltreated in nursing homes or were looked upon as targets. Drugs proliferated and even if I chose not to indulge I could (and did) find them turning up in my drink. THAT was scary."

OK Romany, so you have lived in Darwin, Australia. Big deal.

I once lived there, and found it the same as you describe, so i spose it hasnt changed one bit.

And did you forget to remember Dr Death in Qld, Dr Patel?