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The Forum > Article Comments > The National Day of Thanksgiving: it's the ‘white fella’ religious right again > Comments

The National Day of Thanksgiving: it's the ‘white fella’ religious right again : Comments

By Alan Matheson, published 24/5/2007

The paternalism and arrogance of the religious right and its National Day of Thanksgiving is breathtaking.

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I'm at least fourth generation Australian, and proud of it. As far as I see I have nothing to feel sorry about!
Posted by Reynard, Thursday, 24 May 2007 9:19:22 AM
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I am frightened of the blanket adoption of north american terminology like "First Nation Peoples" and "Thanksgiving". Kevin from Queensland is looking more like a mini me clone of John Howard by the minute, where is Bob Brown when you need him.
Posted by billie, Thursday, 24 May 2007 9:31:04 AM
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What the...

Tell me this is some kind of brilliant satire?

National Day of Thanksgiving??

What about us 'Godless heathens'...are we invited?

I think Alan may have a point here. The date and subject matter seems like too much of a coincidence to me. This smells very political.

Just another reason to spit on our flag as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by StabInTheDark, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:16:15 AM
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Although I am something of a media junkie, this is the first I've heard about the NDoT. Therefore I'm not sure that it is that much of a threat to our way of life etc, particularly as it seems to be composed of a rag-tag bunch of the usual desperate suspects.

Is there any evidence that they are actually having much impact with the NDoT project? Maybe we should just ignore them while they get on with their happy-clappy and hysterical rants until they are clapped out, and then welcome them back to the banal old everyday world of uncertainty, mundane anxieties and quieter joys.

Granting them undue attention for their quaint campaigns may only prolong their enthusiasm.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:18:37 AM
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"White people learn to think black".

What a lot of racist claptrap.

And how many times can you misrepresent the notion of justice in one article?? Not everything bad that has happened to Aborigines is a result of them being "victims" requiring "justice" from whites, yet that is what the black grievance industry would have you believe.

You wouldn't know it from listening to people like this, but Aborigines are actually independent human beings like the rest of us who have a capacity to change their own lives, for the better or worse, independent of the white bogeyman. You, sir, and your ilk are direct contributors to the environment of despair and self-pity that many Aborigines find themselves mired in today.
Posted by grn, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:03:46 PM
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AS AN ABORIGINAL WOMEN, I'D JUST LIKE TO SAY YOUR VEIWS REPRESENT THAT OF A NEO-LIBERALIST IDIOT.

IT'S NOT HARD TO SEE YOU AREN'T WELL EDUCATED IN ABORIGINAL AND AUSTRALIAN HISTORY.

JUMPING ON THE "BLAME THE VICTEM MENTALITY" BAND WAGON IS TOO EASY IN THIS DAY, WITH OVER EDUCATED FOOLS LIKE NOEL PEARSON MISREPRESENTING THE ABORIGINAL VISION FOR LIBERTY.

LIKE IT OR NOT, AUTRALIA IS ABORIGINAL LAND AND YOU, A DECENDANT OF AN INVADER.

WE ARE A SOVERIEGN PEOPLE, AND LIKE ANY DISTINCTIVE CULTURAL GROUP WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASSERT OUR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS.

FURTHER MORE, OUR RIGHTS AS FIRST PEOPLE.

NOT ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT THE WESTERN ECONMOIC IDEAL IS AND SHOULD BE THE GLOBES FUTURE, AND THAT THAS BEEN REPRESENTED BY INDIGENOUS PEOPLES ALL OVER THE WORLD.

I DONT LIKE WHAT YOUR SYSTEM DOES TO YOU, LET ALONE WHAT IT HAS DONE OR NOT DONE FOR US.

TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK AT THE WORLD YOU LIVE IN.
Posted by MIMILA, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:28:17 PM
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I'd not heard of this day either but not being a christian of any shade that's not suprising. Having checked out the NDT website just now I have to agree with the content of this article and 'grn' if your looking for examples of racist claptrap go visit that website. It's about as partronising as it gets. The whole 'god given' thing is decidely of putting.

I don't know whether Bob Brown has put much effort into the issue of Indigenous disadvantage, but I am impressed with Queensland Senator Andrew Bartlett's work on this - his website has a lot of information - www.andrewbartlett.com - and he backs it up by travelling around to the communities and actually talking with and listening to the people themselves.
Posted by MsFuzz, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:49:09 PM
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The National Day of Thanksgiving recognizes people who are contributing to our society. Different people who have been thanked and reconized in the past has included emergency services, nurses, police and teachers. They have been publicly thanked for their contribution to society. Alan seems to be peeved that his version of Christianity is not endorsed by many Christians. It is ironic that the organisers of the event this year are honouring some indigneous leaders for their contribution. There are far more 'black fello' Christians then 'white fella Christians' on earth today. Alan seems to do the plight of the indigneous in this country little good.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 24 May 2007 2:18:51 PM
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I'd rather be a "neo-liberalist" than a Marxist.

Seriously MIMILA, if that's what you believe, move to Cuba.

You are doing untold harm to your own race by promoting your loony mix of socialism and Aboriginal separatism.
Posted by grn, Thursday, 24 May 2007 2:27:48 PM
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Having known victims of the stolen generation I would have to say that a national day of thanksgiving is not only insulting to the victims of colonialisation but also morally repugnant as the reasoning and imputus behind the treatment of first Australians was based on Christian ideals, values and morals. To give a day of thanksgiving when the horrors of what Christianity has done is still being played out suggests that the cult is not willing to learn from its mistakes and reflect on its prejudices.

A factor in understanding the minds of Christianists is that the Christian right is a collection of doomsday cults no different from Islamists. The Christian right are dedicated to the end of the world which they believe will be brought about by their god. Such cults have no respect for life so it is not surprising they have no respect for people either.

Those who dedicate their lives to the end of time such as the religious right will see anything negative as a reason to give thanks.

God is the destroyer and god is on their side after all, that is the obvious message of the day of thanksgiving.
Posted by West, Thursday, 24 May 2007 2:28:34 PM
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Just another step towards the Americanisation of Australia,and a further insidious attempt to develop a bible belt in this country where too many citizens have not been indoctrinated into organised religion and many have shrugged off the hypocricy of Christendom that ignores it's own basic tenets
Posted by maracas, Thursday, 24 May 2007 2:31:14 PM
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West writes

'Having known victims of the stolen generation I would have to say that a national day of thanksgiving is not only insulting to the victims of colonialisation but also morally repugnant as the reasoning and imputus behind the treatment of first Australians was based on Christian ideals, values and morals.'

You show either a deliberate or blind ignorance to Christian ideals. The many indigneous people I know have a great deal of respect for Christians who made great sacrifices to improve the plight of the indigneous people. To this day many Christians are still sacrificing their comforts in order to educate and bring basic necessities to many in the outback.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 24 May 2007 2:49:18 PM
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Rather a lot of repetitious emphasis on sacrificing christians, there runner.

I can't quite see why those sacrificing christians should be deserving of kudos for doing without a few comforts when their standard of living - with or without the "comforts" - in just about every single way is so much higher than the average Indigenous person - and you always get to go back to the comforts whenever you choose.

I’m also wondering what kind of education you are handing out along with those comfortless "basic necessities" out there in the outback.
Posted by MsFuzz, Thursday, 24 May 2007 3:34:57 PM
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Runner you make a good point about the Christian attitude that they see helping those that their cults have destroyed as a "sacrifice".

I am sure nazis helping Jews to become like nazis would be seen as a sacrifice by the nazis.

The attitude is exactly what the article is about.

Blind? I am not blind to what has been going on and continues to occur. Just because the word Christ is pegged on to a cause doesnt mean it has a good motive.

As far as Christian values are concerned, I remain unconvinced that and have not yet seen any evidence to support the claim they are the good values that Christians constantly pat themselves on the back about.

You see as far as Im concerned a good value laden ideology would not allow the resulting misery to occur in the first place.

One human victim such as one single indigenous child removed from its parent can never be made right by the "sacrifices" of even 6 billion Christians. To paraphrase Cher you cant 'turn back time'. Anyway I am not aware of all Australian Churches handing over every item of property and every last cent to the first Australians. There has been no true sorry , no real sacrifice. Much too little for a cult which believes in revelations but clings to material wealth.
Posted by West, Thursday, 24 May 2007 3:38:55 PM
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It is despicable to make this day on the same day as Sorry Day, and then to say "oops, we didn't know" is insulting.
I detest the use of "Thanksgiving" also. If they moved it to a different day and called it "National 'cheers, mate' day" it'd be much better.

Christianity isn't totally to blame for the maltreatment of aboriginals. The theories of social Darwinism as well as a heavy dose of British snobbery were also major factors. Christianity tends to be get mixed up with all these other ideas and then takes the entire blame. I don't remember Jesus ever saying the white man is superior so he's allowed to kick around the black man.
Posted by Donnie, Thursday, 24 May 2007 4:38:24 PM
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"....we weren't aware when Sorry Day was".

Says it all really.

Ironically, Jesus attempted to bring disparate groups of people together and always defended the 'downtrodden', the weakest and most vulnerable in every situation: "when you look after the least of my brothers..". Probably the most remarkable thing about the early Christians is that... they transcended race - not by focusing on [their] supremacy, but by focusing on fellowship, brother and sisterhood. Equality.

Today's Christians - especially those of the right, resemble more the san hedrin (the people who engineered the death of Jesus) than they do the man himself.
Posted by K£vin, Thursday, 24 May 2007 7:36:20 PM
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Kevin, I'm a big fan of God and JC, its their fan clubs I don't like.
Posted by Rainier, Thursday, 24 May 2007 9:19:06 PM
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Indeed Rainier - that is why both Moses and Jesus were against 'worship' - it produces fundamentalists who use any means to enforce their 'fire and brimstone' on others, to conveniently of course, assert their own self-serving power.

God is to be found within oneself, in the heart - not in a dusty old book... or praying to golden statues - even ones on wooden crosses.
Posted by K£vin, Friday, 25 May 2007 1:36:09 AM
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Wow.... there are 3 identities which I'd like to engage with here this time.

Ranier and Kevin, I'm so encouraged to read your words, because I see hope in them. Ranier.. the fan club has always been a 'problem' mate.. thats why our faith is not in the club, but in the president.
Within any group of Christians, you will find a diverse mob. Look at the problems Paul addressed in his letters to the Corinthians.. specially the first one.

Kevin.. just a minor point.. you claimed Jesus and Moses discouraged 'worship'... I'm curious about your basis for saying that. Would you mind expanding and providing some documentation for that ?

MIMULA firstly, a warm welcome to OLO. I'm not sure how to understand your post ? (but I sure 'heard' it with all those capitals :)

There are many things Indigenous Australians experienced which can be addressed in real terms today. Some cannot.
Regarding those which 'can' be looked at, I see the following:

1/ Aboriginal wages held back 'in trust'. Should be calculated into todays value and paid.
2/ In Melbourne, there is a bleeding running sore, of the status of many indigenous folk who were pushed and shoved from a 'reservation' in Lilydale I think, for 'administrative' reasons.(code for somebody saw value in the location and wanted it)
My suggestion is that the government buy up all the houses along the various creeks in Melbourne which were focal points of Aboriginal life and give them at a very nominal rate to Aboriginal descendants of those with an ancestral connection to them. Box Hill south is one such area. Gardners Creek. There are others.

The issue which can never be reversed is the fact of European racial and cultural presense and modern Australia.
Aboriginal people are no longer sovereign here, for the same reasons the Celts of Wales are no longer sovereign over most of England. English people are Anglo Saxon/Viking/Celt/Roman etc.. all mixed into one.

Are you advocating violent revolution ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 25 May 2007 5:59:42 AM
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Australia WAS aboriginal land,not IS.Call it invasion if you like.Why is the call to the Australian Government to say sorry for the invasion,when it was actually the British government that started and finished the invasion.By the time Australia was given self-government the worst was over.But why would you expect an apology from the British,they are afterall a country that has an appalling record of how they treat their own.Look at their record at how they treated people who stole food to survive, at the time of the invasion of Australia.Shipped off in disease-infested hell holes to the far corners of the earth.Think how they treated their orphaned and poor children even in the last century - 100,000 exported to the former colonies.10,000 to Australia to the likes of the Fairbridge Farm.At least our Stolen Generation got to stay in this country.

Whilst I agree that western society is not necessilry something that should be emulated,the aboriginal population are better off since white settlement in at least one aspect - longer lives.I am betting that there are people out there that will see this point as an outrage,and I grant that there may be more important things than a long life,but I point out that this is often held up as a benchmark of how poorly whitefellas treat blackfellas.

No doubt there would be a number of farmers that would happily allow local aboriginies use of their land for living on.So long as they leave the stock alone - and why shouldnt they, there are more kangaroos now than 200 years ago,and settlers also introduced rabbits - a relatively easy food source to catch.There are plenty of fish in the rivers,which are now largely dammed for continual flow and supply of fish,and there are still plenty of sources of other wild foods such as dillon bush (edible berries) and nardoo (seeds ground to make flour).We could have quite happy co-existence of two cultures this way.But then, someone would cry that these kids arent getting an education,or that they are living in 3rd-world conditions (despite them being culturally correct).Its a lose-lose situation.
Posted by Country Gal, Friday, 25 May 2007 1:50:04 PM
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Funny Rainer that you are a big fan of God and JC but dislike His followers. It is sort of like saying I love you God but hate your people. I wonder who has the problem? I actually find the vast majority of people who follow Christ add greatly to our society and are very likeable people. Is there anyone you do like?
Posted by runner, Friday, 25 May 2007 2:36:02 PM
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A very nice example of an "Im alright Jack" argument Country Gal.

We cant say first Australians live longer now than they did before the invasion because we dont know how long they lived before. We do know their diet made their ancestors a lot healthier than they are now. We know the English in 1000 Ad lived twice as long as the English in the 1800's. It is quite likely we have shortened first Australians life spans. Certainly on the whole we have sacrificed their wellbeing for ours , that is undeniable. Yes most of us second Australians and those of you of the third Australians and those which came after the 1830s you 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th through to 16th Australians and the 17th to 24th Australians who came after the Second World War and the 25th Australian on the plane on the way here as we speak all came from an invaded people. It dont make it right and we should all acknowledge our debt to the first people. If first Australians were in equal numbers to following Australians we would be bending over backwards to meet them half way. As it is we are arrogant and smug about our clear mistakes.
Posted by West, Friday, 25 May 2007 2:45:29 PM
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Firstly.. "MIMILA".. sorry for mis-spelling.

Secondly.. COUNTRY GIRL.. 'tick'.. CLAP.. and hooray.. spot on.

Why the heck should farmers NOT want to allow Indigenous people to hunt and gather on their properties.. I'm sure a workable mutual understanding could be thrashed out.. then.. its no longer 'my land/your land...its OUR land. (Black and white)

Why can we not be one of the first countries to DO something like this ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 25 May 2007 7:25:08 PM
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BOAZ_David

I thought it would be obvious - golden calves?

Jesus is only ever seen in a temple when chastising the clerics for using 'scripture' to beat people. Jesus was much happier sharing food and community than blind worship of 'idols'.

Both were prolific contemplatives and meditators - the true way to God/self/understanding.

UNDERSTANDING David is the true 'LIGHT' of the world - not giving one's faculties away in blind allegiance to some noisy, cantankerous finger-pointing bully.

In my reading of the Gospels, Christ was the 'embodiment' of understanding and compassion - treat others as you would wish to be treated. That's it - end of story - the only lesson you need to truly learn.
Posted by K£vin, Saturday, 26 May 2007 12:50:04 AM
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I am not from the religious right or even the right, I do not disrespect the first Australians.
Yet I am sorry, sorry that this morning my home town streets will see drunks asleep in the gutters.
Women shouting the most filthy words, hard to understand words with the pitch of a Cockatoo.
Kids will shop lift and parents will share the spoils.
I am sorry that after more than 200 years a prime minister still needs to say kids must learn the country's main language.
And that he has to say children must go to school.
Most importantly of all I remain forever sorry that we needlessly use these people as a debating point and fight among ourselves about if it is wrong too demand a better education and life for these kids.
Endless stalling debate that leads no place and fails to stop or even help stop this dreadful lifestyle for so many of our country's people.
If we are fairdinkum we will remember first or not they are Australians caught up in a world that is a lessor one than ours.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 26 May 2007 7:02:59 AM
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Belly is right. We need to support first Australians, those of us who are the following Australians dont have to force the inane elements of our social structure upon them.

An example is the competitiveness of our society. We are engaged at undermining each other at all costs. We are an economy of conflict. Our education system is geared toward creating employment mercenaries and employment slaves. From gun boat policies of the 19th century, the Dutch East India Company to forcing workers to sign work place agreements we have become one with competition. From slipping in GM foods, coaxing kids to eat fatty food to running sweat shops we will do anything but anything to impress cohorts ,to get rich , to have authority over another.

The less values a person holds the better off they do in this society. That has not changed since the first fleet, the first Australians are a direct victim to our hostile way of life.

We owe our first Australians enough to help them rebuild their co-operative society and allow them to co-exist as a pluralistic society. We dont have to apply our competitiveness to them. This will not prevent us enaging in our Judeo-Christian based dog eat dog culture. We can still continue to undermine our friends and foes. Who knows , with oil , Uranium and now coal peaking threatening our competitive ways , making the stupidity of competition more stupid , having a co-operative society operating along side us may save us giving us the last laugh over our over seas competition.Or if we embrace a co-operative society and learn something we can teach and save our overseas competitors too.

The state of Indigenous Australia , climate change , monotheistic terrorism , resource wars,unsustainable consumption- our way certainly does not work, are we so stupid we think it the best way to live?
Posted by West, Saturday, 26 May 2007 1:46:48 PM
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I wonder what I am personally supposed to feel sorry and guilty for.
Why do I have to apologise for something other people did. It should be sufficient to acknowledge that what was done and move on.
My great-grandmother came to Australia from Caithness. She had very little there and not a great deal more here but her children remember very well that she gave assistance to more than one aboriginal family.
Her husband employed them and gave them the same wage as his other workers.
On my other side my great-grandparents were in charge of a welfare centre where aboriginal families were able to seek assistance so that their children would not be taken from them.
I have aboriginal friends just as I have Chinese, African, Jewish, Muslim, Christian and atheist friends.
I don't see any need to say "sorry" nor do I want someone to say "sorry" on my behalf. I would be insulted if they did. What insults me is demands for an apology and financial compensation. Any available money would be far better spend on health and education programmes for the present generation of young aboriginal people. The demand for an apology is politics dressed up as a social issue and it is doing untold harm by giving the present generation a negative view of present political leaders who had no control over past decisions.
Posted by Communicat, Saturday, 26 May 2007 2:07:39 PM
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Apologising for the past is a conceptual base from which we may construct a material framework. It is also clarifying the positions of stakeholders in order to create a system of exchange in good faith for the future. It is more important for an institution to apologise for their role in the ethnic cleansing of this continents indigenous cultures than it is for individuals. I think it is important that individuals appreciate where the source of their lively hood was gained from. I dont think a person should say sorry if they dont mean it. From a government or institutional point of view not saying sorry is a declaraion of the continuation of the ideology and principles behind the ethnic cleansing. To not say sorry is to say the government or church still see's itself righteous within its attempts to destroy another people.

Financial compensation is a totally different argument. I personally am against compensation. I am more supportive of rebuilding the elements which made this countries indigenous culture survive longer than any other culture on earth. This could be protected by the resources and the best elements of Euro-antipodean culture we have to offer.

We should be willing to change our ways to accomodate pluralism as well. As it stands everything is about changes the indigenous communities are expected to make.

Back to the sorry statementone of the first things we should do is place the indigenous flag within the Australian flag.We still are talking us and them not in terms of family.
Posted by West, Saturday, 26 May 2007 3:08:24 PM
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From the replies maybe some respondents are shooting from the hip. I went to the site and it seems quite OK to me. Have a look:

http://www.thanksgiving.org.au/article_view.asp?intid=42
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 26 May 2007 3:53:35 PM
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West's arguments are misguided.

Most Indigenous people don't have an option of choosing not to live with our society's competitiveness. They are mostly in economically and socially weak positions, having to survive by whatever means are at hand. Finding time and resources to establish and maintain satisfying subsistence lifestyles outside the demands of our competitive, materialist society are beyond the grasp of most well-educated people. What would lead us to think that it's an option for the majority of Indigenous people who find themselves at the bottom of the urban pecking orders, or the many in remote communities who are starved of education and jobs?

We may have an economy dependent on conflict, but this is not new in history, and it is not foreign to Aboriginal societies, which remain based on a strong practise of 'territoriality' and 'custodianship' - often reliant on the owner/custodians' willingness to defend territory and resources by violent means including strong sorcery. Indigenous people generally want the education to survive and compete in this real world. It is not their duty to satisfy our longings for them to live a better way. It is the duty of people who want better ways to create them, but not to hamstring vulnerable people with their dreams.
As for the idea that we should 'help them rebuild their co-operative society', this is simplistic. Their co-operative society was (and to some extent remains) one of structured but limited co-operation within the extended family group, but also of structured conflict and competition between some family members and often with other groups. These processes were based on practices (including patriarchal control enforced by violence; absolute control of land and resources, usually by force; strict control of knowledge; constant hard physical exertion; 'feast and famine' subsistence) which are no longer tenable or possible.

Whatever 'the best way to live' might be, in our present circumstances, we should not expect that many Indigenous people are going to be the ones who are able to miraculously identify, develop and practise it.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Saturday, 26 May 2007 4:44:38 PM
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Boo-hoo...everything wrong with my life must be the fault of the white man. Ridiculous! Is there no end to the amount of guilt white folks can be made to accept? And, of course, one mustn't be proud of one's heritage...that is, only if you are white.
Posted by pjean, Sunday, 27 May 2007 9:01:36 AM
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Some have miss understood me I am not in any way saying whites alone are the problem.
A few are very much the problem but sorry many more Aboriginals stand in the way of progress, in my view we saw one in this thread the upper case post was just anger and nothing of substance.
However I can not ever forgive some on my side of politics clearly left of center, who constantly cry racism every time efforts are made at real improvement.
I have an interest here I'm uncle to some of these people via kids I rared for a sister.
And have many true friends among these folk.
Why is it wrong to propose education for all?
What makes personal accountability for our actions wrong?
Why after 200 plus years are Aboriginal kids stealing and hoping to get sent to prison saying it is a good change?
And why is it wrong to think a job and education is a chance at a better life?
And yes my post yesterday two kids stole the cigarettes from a wheel chair bound busker and ran away.
Well known to me they later shared the spoils with mum, again well known to me.
Tell me I am racist for wanting better from them and for them.
But the answers will not come from those who do not even know these people.
Oh by the way if humanity is one can we hope one day that we will while remembering our history just all be proud to be Australian?
And if this land is not mine too this lefty invites anyone to try to take it from me.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 27 May 2007 9:30:19 AM
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pjean, funny how you mention guilt without any prompting for this kind of emotional reaction being called for at all...but if the shoe fits.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 27 May 2007 10:56:06 AM
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Belly wrote: And if this land is not mine too this lefty invites anyone to try to take it from me.

Show me in international law where this nation was legally acquired...?

Or are your own western laws of property irrelevant?
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 27 May 2007 10:59:42 AM
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'A few months after the first Day of Mourning back in 1938, Doug Nicholls, Yorta Yorta man, pastor and black activist, looked around in despair and anger, and said that nothing will change until, "White people learn to think black".'

This is almost a nice point from Doug Nicholls. It would have been better if he had said, "White and black people learn to think in shades of grey."

It is now quite clear that the black 'hunter-gatherer' culture is no longer tenable in the 21st century. We could try and preserve this anachronism, but why should we? Indeed the British culture that existed in the time of Captain Cook is pretty well dead and has moved on, so why shouldn't Aboriginal culture also move on?

It is also clear that a literal and fundamentalist form of Christianity is also an anachronism. It is obviously devisive and incompatible with the world view of other cultures.

Scientific naturalism combined with environmentalism on the other hand maybe a white invention but at least it has the great potential to be cross-cultural. That is, because is does not subscribe to the tribalistic totem of monotheism it reaches out to both black and white people. After all, Australia's unique natural beauty is something that we can all appreciate and love in a very spiritual way
Posted by TR, Sunday, 27 May 2007 12:48:55 PM
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Thank you TR, for your uncommon sense & reasonableness, on this network of undisciplined grumpiness & facile asides, to which I too have contributed. You provide a good example to us all.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Sunday, 27 May 2007 4:27:58 PM
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"pjean, funny how you mention guilt without any prompting for this kind of emotional reaction being called for at all...but if the shoe fits."

What do you think "Sorry Day" is about? The writer of this article states that it should be a day of "deep remorse". Sorry, don't have any since I have never done anything to the native population. Or, perhaps you mean to suggest that all whites should participate in this endless cult of victimhood where we wil, of course, play the role of eternal oppressor.
Posted by pjean, Sunday, 27 May 2007 4:56:34 PM
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I too seem to have been misunderstood, especially by Dan Fitzpatrick. I am not suggesting first Australians are forced to become hunters and gatherers and live in familial principalities and by competitive society, I am saying we second and so Australians are 100% imbued in competition. Eurasian Australian culture is both a mono-culture and has no depth. Competition is all we have and all we can achieve. Within the societal environment we have created what I have been suggesting is exactly as you put it Dan “Whatever 'the best way to live' might be, in our present circumstances, we should not expect that many Indigenous people are going to be the ones who are able to miraculously identify, develop and practise it.”

My “simplicity” is suggesting Eurasian Australia should take responsibility for this and to work towards best outcomes. It is only through competitive eyes that Eurasian Australia makes such judgement that it is natural that indigenous Australians would become losers and losers in the context of competitive economy. The way the world economy is constructed, including Australia’s economy is there must be a larger group of losers to support a small group of winners. Because Australia’s fortunes are built on what is taken by this continents original societies we are responsible for the wellbeing of those societies we have been trying to ethnically cleans through design or accident.

As it stands indigenous Australia is separate to Eurasian Australian. We expect a first Australian to become Eurasianised , not second Australians becoming Australianised. As we see in many of the above posts, a large number of Australians have contempt and arrogance and an assumed higher status over indigenous Australians. This is most likely due to our competitive way of seeing. Many regard ‘Aborigines’’ defeated by us and so must tow our line, the line of the victor. This victor mentality comes out strongly in the “why should I say sorry ?” posts.
Posted by West, Sunday, 27 May 2007 8:35:50 PM
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I think it ridiculous the argument that Indigenous will become territorial and defend it with sorcery. Eurasian society is much more heavily bonded to sorcery. Occult superstitions such as Christianity practice sorcery constantly. Prayer is sorcery , baptism is sorcery and unlike traditional Indigenous beliefs Christianity is persecutory. Christianity follows the immoral teachings of the character of Jesus who taught that only Jews go to heaven and thus others are diminshed. If you calculate the killings in the name of Christ then the sorcery of Christ has resulted in the greatest mass murder in history. Islam has been similar but has only affected two continents. We have adapted to Christ sorcery , now we no longer take Christians seriously in their claims of morality and righteousness. Any sorcery within a traditional community pales compared to the virtual demon that is monothesistic worship.

A case in point is this wicked attempt to subvert the massive debt churches have to our Indigenous by pushing this thanksgiving (sorcery) nonesense.
Posted by West, Sunday, 27 May 2007 8:49:33 PM
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TR ! well said mate.. 'SHADES OF GREY' is probably the single most important comment on the whole thread so far..

Kevin.. lets go from 'where you are now' to a tiny step closer to God?

You have read the gospels.. and you have an understanding of them.. but it seems you had a very strong 'filter' in place as you read them mate.
Jesus cannot be understood apart from His whole mission, and whole teaching right ?

From the outset, it was not just his teaching which turned the towns upside down, but his actions. May I refer you to the first chapter of Marks Gospel ? please have a read.
Verse 27-28 go like this:

27The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, "What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to evil spirits and they obey him." 28News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.

The news spread..not just because of his authoritative teaching..but... well, you can see it.

He was/is far more than just a bloke calling for a fair go....much more
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 28 May 2007 8:14:46 AM
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I agree with Alan Matheseon. But furthxer - I am amazed at the utter hypocrisy of Australia's politicians and mainstream media - in "celebrating" this day on the very same day as news comes of the planned radioacrive waste dump on aboriginal land in the Northern Territory.

A secret deal was done, with a few tribal members, by which for $12 million, a section of their land is to be a radioactive waste dump. The first in Australia - a dump that no white persons would accept - even for many more millions of dollars! Can you put a price on the permanent pollution of land?

And - is this the first of many such deals, in which aborigines are conned? Already, nuclear wastes from two research reactors are to be brought back to this Muckaty Station dump, from overseas. So, is this the start of a boom industry - boom for Hugh Morgan, John White, Rio Tinto, BHPB etc - but not for the health and well-being of Australia's people, black or white? Christina Macpherson www.antinuclearaustralia.com
Posted by ChristinaMac, Monday, 28 May 2007 10:16:41 AM
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I wish the Aboriginals in this country would do something to help themselves. They seem too bent on the past and what happened back 200 years ago. Maybe it is time to try and move on? Today's Australian Aboriginal population have the choice to claim equality - they can vote, go to uni, gain employment in any industry etc There's simply no reason, apart from their wanting to maintain difference, for them to live backward lives. If they choose to remain in desert camps and live animist lives, then they can hardly blame the government for those conditions.

Also, in relation to the Sorry Day, why hasn't anyone raised Keith Windschuttle's arguments about the Stolen Generation? He argued in his book about that episode, that many (NOT all, I must emphasise) Aboriginal kids were taken from their families because they were being neglected in some form or other. He also said that rather than there being a "Generation" stolen, it was a considerably smaller group.

As to the National Day of Thanksgiving being held on the same day, I doubt very much that any Christian organisation would deliberately try to "over-ride" Sorry Day. Yet I get a sense that the author of this article seems to think Christianity should come second place to indigineous issues? It seems as though he is happy to make mileage out of Christianity for political gain and play the two days off?
Posted by Dinners, Monday, 28 May 2007 10:47:07 AM
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Thanks for a balanced response Dinners. Alan seems to create a very funny theology. You make a very important point in regard to Alan wanting indigneous issues to be more important than Christ Himself in the churches. I personally spent the afternoon with many indigneous people (not of the political persuasion) and celebrated a great time of oneness in Christ. Yesterday also happened to coincide with pentecost Sunday. Many Christians I know spent time focussing what people of all nations have that unite us instead of political issues that people like Alan use to try and divide us. In our meeting we had aborigines, africans, aussies, asians and we even let the kiwis in. How this must grate on those seeking division.
Posted by runner, Monday, 28 May 2007 1:05:32 PM
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West, it has been estimated that the life expectancy of hunter-gatherer tribes was around 30-40 years. The only health study with definitive numbers is the one in the NT, which shows that over the last 40 years, indigenous life expectancies have increased faster than the general population. Whilst it is not conclusive, it is heavily suggestive that thanks to modern medicine (that the indigenous population wouldnt have had without settlement of this country), has assisted in extending lives, despite the western diet taking its toll on health.

I notice that no-one has taken me up on my suggestion of coexistence of modern farming with traditional tribal life (except for your comment BD). Of course it would have its practical problems, but it would also have its benefits for both parties. I pointed out food sources, and I should also note that farmers would benefit from having emu and roo populations controlled on their shared lands. Its also a method of control for rabbit numbers. Its worth a thought...
Posted by Country Gal, Monday, 28 May 2007 8:59:50 PM
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I understand your concerns about taking over Sorry Day, but apart from that, why are you so opposed to acknowledging Christianity in the public sphere?
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Monday, 28 May 2007 9:02:29 PM
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runner, so how many of your non white friends were as rich as you?
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 28 May 2007 9:19:43 PM
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Rainer I am not sure why you want to know how many of my coloured (other than white friends) are richer than me. If you are measuring it by possessions some have a lot more and some have less. I actually come from a family who lived all their lives in Government housing. So what really is your point? Thankfully those worshipping and following Christ is made up of the rich, the poor and everyone in between.
Posted by runner, Monday, 28 May 2007 9:37:49 PM
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Country Gal estimates on pre Eurasian invasion for this continents indigenous are based on 19th Century European life expectancies. Life in the industrial revolution was very short compared to the ancients because of low nutrition and pollution. Fresh meat and vegetables were often beyond the finance of workers. Pollution was another factor. The point is not that numbers can be fiddled to make it look as though the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, the point is why are they as a whole dying so young and what have the rest of us done wrong that this should happen. Yes the indigenous community should take action to help themselves , here and there it has been the case since the 1700's. This argument does not let the rest of Australia off the hook.

Australia is an extremely racist society.Indigenous Australians have no hope and no future, Australian society will keep them down although it breaks my heart to admit it. The Christian community view the indigenous as domesticated savages, the good ones find jesus the bad ones are because they are heathens. The political sector views the indigenous as thorns in their side, somehow threatening Australias sovereignty and also blighted by the Christian view that 'they should be one of us'. These problems the rest of us have created should be addressed as until we can change our views we are just going to continue making a disgusting situation worst.

Hunting and gathering on agricultural land?
Keeping in mind the carrying capacity of this continent has diminished and landrights only occur when stock farming has degraded the land even for beef, there may be scope for dual use of land for hunting and gathering and this has been going on here and there.

The greatest barrier to indigenous wellbeing is the Christian attitude that because we may help the indigenous we then own them. Indigenous Australians belong to themselves and the rest of the nation must help them and it must be so a pluralistic society is developed with all its complexities.The word 'Australia' must become synonymous with both.
Posted by West, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 3:38:52 PM
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The annual aboriginal guilt day has past with much of the same rhetoric spoken in the media. However the so called "stolen" generation of aboriginals were in fact and generally speaking the "saved" generation with many of them as adults taking up responsible positions in both the aboriginal and wider Australian community.

Those left behind were, and are, the "sorry" generation, generally speaking - while the got the vote they often remained on isolated reserves (renamed aboriginal communities) and left to rot.

Assimilation of the "saved" generation was a great achievement and the removal of abused children from dysfunctional families, unwedded mothers and child mothers, whether aboriginal or other Australians was common in the past and why not if it helped the kids.
Posted by Adrian Jackson of Middle Park Vic, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 7:57:35 PM
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West, a few points to argue!

1. The AGRICULTURAL capacity of the land may have arguably been decreased. But greater use of the land for agriculture has lead to there being larger populations of certain native animals - kangaroos in particular. A very rich food source. As I mentioned, white settlers also introduced rabbits - again a good food source and fairly easy to catch (we used to run them down when we were kids). There is year-round water in almost all rivers except in the worst droughts, and fishing clubs release fingerlings often. There is probably more food now than there was 200 years ago.

2. I have yet to find a member of the Christian community that regards the aboriginies as domesticated savages. Yes, there are some that will say that things would have been easier if the settlers had finished them off. I dont subscribe to that theory but I acknowledge that there are those that do. Mostly its frustration about not being able to do anything to improve their current circumstances.

3. The average life expectancy of a paelolithic hunter-gather was 33 years. Mostly due to childhood diseases and infant mortality. High infant mortality is given as a major contributing factor towards why the indigenous life expectancy is so low. As we improve this, we will improve the average life expectancy. There is certainly more work to do, but they were starting from behind, so you cant expect that they will be on a level playing field yet. It does require people that keep drawing the publics attention to it though.
Posted by Country Gal, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 8:47:35 PM
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Country Gal ,

1. Biodiversity has taken a nose dive in Australia. Most beef country is so degraded half the food plants that once existed are extinct on those lands. Else where reserves are too small and only preserve that which is so vulnerable that any collection of plant material would cause extinction within a few short years if not immediately. As far as kangaroo is concerned it should be Australia’s primary meat, a little research additional to already existing data should make Kangaroo farming viable.

2. The discourse concerning the assimilation of indigenous peoples is directly suggesting that those people are required to be [civilised] as [WE] are [civilised]. This is a direct influence of the monotheistic values of self adulation and deification [WE are right , everybody else is wrong] and barbarity [ you must be as we are]. A good example of this is Adrian Jacksons post above yours. Clearly the living conditions and opportunities presented to our Indigenous citizens today is testimony that we are not a civilised society at least our values have not been for at least 200 years. I have been arguing that we are savage if anybody is. We are a society of conflict, a society of competition. Clearly the living conditions and opportunities presented to our Indigenous citizens is testimony that for all the horrors and abuse indigenous communities received from churches to assimilate them benefited only the pride mongering of the Christians and churches involved to the detriment of indigenous communities. The word assimilation is suggestive of domestication and is the accusation the ‘other’ is a savage. What we are seeing now are a people with out hope because they have never been respected nor valued by us.

3. Again you are using 19th century assumptions of life expectancy. Within a few years of the first fleet European diseases had ravished the Murray Darling Basin. A life expectancy of 33 certainly does not make sense for some clans who’s hierarchy was topped by great, great grandparents, which would require a large enough population of enough at least 55 year olds.
Posted by West, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 11:58:11 AM
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I offer this advice, with grn in mind.

BEWARE PATERNALISM.
Posted by MIMILA, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 12:57:06 PM
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West,
1.Yes but there are now other food sources including native grasses introduced into areas where they didnt grow naturally, and completely introduced. Some have been a good move and some have not. I assume by beef country that you are thinking of the NT and northern QLD, because most marginal areas of southern Australia are considered sheep country -beef cant get enough fodder to survive. Even in this country though, populations of native animals are still quite high, due to pasture improvement, the seeding of claypans and the provision of permanent water sources.

2.Geez, what way do you want to argue? You seem to be determined to draw a distinction between us and them, so I'll sink to the same level. If we leave them living in hunter-gatherer conditions (humpies/gunyas, no western medical aid, no clothes/food supplied), then we are savage and barbaric. But if we provide them with westernised accomodation, food, welfare if they cant get a job, medical services etc, then we are savage for trying to assimilate them. So what's the bloody answer? Its this sort of prancing on both sides that makes it impossible to offer anything and have it accepted as good or useful.

3.No I am using 20th century estimates of paleolithic lifespans. Obviously they are estimates. The estimates suggested that the reason for the AVERAGE life span being so low is no real medical treatment, and high infant mortality. It was also suggested that those that survived childhood, accidents and wild animals (which wouldnt have been a particular problem in Australia apart from crocs), probably lived up to 55-65 years. This allowed the societies to be governed by elders, because those that did survive were quite healthy and long-lived. This life expectancy thus DOES make sense in application to aboriginal tribes, and is borne out in some medical data from today. The indigenous population has quite high fertility rates, but also high infant mortality rates. Apply those to the population in general condsidering that western medicine has improved infant mortality rates, and an AVERAGE expectancy of 30-40 years is quite reasonable.
Posted by Country Gal, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 2:06:37 PM
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Ok with the risk of going around in circles

1. Biodiversity has collapsed. The carrying capacity of the land has diminished. We should not expect Indigenous communities to be stuck in time but offer the best material and theoretical technicologys to help sustain their lives with a wellbeing consistent with the rest of the comunity in so much they may live within the scope of their own cultureS if they so choose and where they deem it important spiritually and traditionally to be. Its inefficent growing native flax for flour when wheat has greater yield.

2. We (the non indigenous Australia) approach indigenous Australia from the assumption of superiority. Yet we have destroyed indigenous culture and social frames , so our superiority is unfounded at best. Science has been guilty of this , anthropologists collected the deceased. Now they are reflexive and aplogetic and trying to right their wrongs. Christianity is just plain obnoxious and arrogant , probably as a defence because they believe in childish and ridiculous concepts. But so they have a word which means they claim superiority which is heathen. The misguided attitude that our way is the best way is the fault of the Cult of Christianity.

3. This is Australia , Some of Australias communities are dying younger than the rest. There is no good excuse. Wether or not indigenous people lived to 15 in 1750 is not relevant.
Posted by West, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 4:59:32 PM
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Country Gal & West, here are some useful statistics:
56,875 Indigenous persons were counted by the Census in the NT at 30 June 2001, which is about 29% of the total NT population (Indigenous children represent 38% of the NT’s children). Despite the lowest median age at death (males 47.1 and females 50) and the shortest average life expectancy (males 55 females 63) the NT Indigenous population has the highest total fertility of all jurisdictions (3.0), the national average is 1.7.

Between 1993 and 1997 Aboriginal children 1-5 years admitted to hospital were 120 times more likely to be diagnosed as undernourished than non-Aboriginal NT children of the same age. In the three years to 2002, there was a 25% increase in the number of children admitted to Royal Darwin Hospital with malnutrition and diarrhea.

The most important thing to understand about the NT demographics is how young the Indigenous population is, the rapid rate of population growth, and where the population is living. About two thirds of the NT Indigenous population currently lives outside of the major municipal boundaries. From that platform, ask what will people be doing in 20 years time? Where will the jobs be? Where will the services need to be? How should we go about planning to provide services to the remote populations of the future?

As for sheep, cows and kangaroos: around remote semi-arid/arid zone communities kangaroos and other native meat supplies are largely hunted out, thanks to guns and vehicles and plenty of time for hunting. Millions of sheep live in Central Qld; southern NSW and Victoria have vast numbers of cattle when the prices are right. Fodder is available for those with money. You don't need to farm roos, there are tens of millions of them out here anyway. You just have to kill and eat them. Coles & Woolies supermarkets carry unlimited amounts of good cuts of roo meat at half the price of beef & lamb and it's far healthier as it has much lower fat and cholestorol content. Just buy it! Tastes great.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 5:41:49 PM
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THANK GOD FOR FRED HOLLOWS! THANK GOD FOR THE BENIFITS HE AND HIS TEAM HAVE MADE TO THE SIGHT OF ABORIGINAL CHILDREN. THANKS GIVING IS A GREAT WAY TO PRAISE SOCIAL ACHIEVEMENTS PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN TO OUR SOCIETY. STOP THE GRIPEING AND START GIVING THANKS. GIVE THANKS TODAY FOR A BENIFIT YOU HAVE RECEIVED FROM AN ANCESTORS HARD WORK. IT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL A BETTER PERSON.

PS. How does one notify NF of a change of one's email address?
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 9:53:37 PM
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