Celivia, if I've been excommunicated give me a couple of days to sour up and I'll join you, Danielle, and Yabby at the wall to shout invectives at the Church and her community in faith for the rest of our lives. They hurt our feelings. They just think their sooo superior.

It shouldn't be too difficult to understand the inherent differences between manipulating an ovum to promote cell division in a petri dish (an extra-uterine environment)that doesn't exceed 100 cells, usually limited to about 70 cells, and that of a man and a woman coming together to create a life, (in an intra-uterine environment) a life that by week eight has the full complement of organs, limbs and a functioning cerebral cortex and larger brain. That brain stem activity which has been detected as early as 54 days after conception.

Not conditional free choice Celivia, that suggest a bargain. Rather limits to that freedom with in the bounds of moral and ethical decency, respect for the sanctity of human life, and the respect and consideration due each person involved in the creation of that life. And especially but not exclusively, strict attention and close consideration for that new life when ever contemplating the termination of said life regardless of any social allowance.

Questioning the numbers of abortions given the evidence set forth by those same Physicians doing the abortions is hardly immaterial to abortion or implying women need seek approval. They have already been approved, the abortion done, hence the statistics. To me those numbers and other abortion statistics signal that we as a society are failing our youth in matters of sexual education and sexual behaviour.

How about using your same attitude about religion toward abortion. Abortion can't be on a very solid moral or ethical foundation if it can't stand scrutiny and criticism.

Bugsy, you, too, have reading problems. You must have gone to the same school as Yvonne.
I did not "lambast" the use of hypotheticals. I clearly stated in the first part of my post that I was using such an argument - hypothetical, because it related to events or situations which had not occurred, but might occur in the future. That is a completely legitimate form of argument.
Arguing hypothetically about events which have already occurred, however, is a totally futile exercise, as the second part of my post made clear.
To use one's very existence to argue that one might not have existed is surely a mindless exercise, like a hypothetical discussion about what might not have happened if two planes had not flown into the World Trade Centre. What's the point of the discussion once it has happened?

Celivia, I did not say “that women can have free choice but only on the condition that fathers are allowed to totally wipe their hands of any responsibility.”

What I said was that [IF] it is to be the womans singular responsibility and right to choose prior to any birth to abort or not to abort, to the exclusion of the consideration of the man, then it should also be the womans singular responsibility after the birth and only proper to exclude the man.

I agree with Warren Farrell that if the woman does not have an explicit agreement with the man prior to giving birth to a child then she should not rightfully have the expectation that he will provide for it.
Fair is Fair. Don't enslave the man to the decisions you make according to your right as a woman to not have to involve the man in your decision. The least you can do is show you have the courage of your conviction and the fortitude to stand on principle of having made your decision for yourself alone.

I don't think it's right for a man to tell a woman she can't be a mother and must have an abortion anymore than I think it is right for a woman to tell a man he must now be a father because she made the decision not to abort.

Poor Danielle, your implying that I'm implying to apply a superiority because I said I was raised and educated Catholic. I feel like I should be one of those CSI guys with the Vicks rub under my nose. The stench of victimhood is that palatable.
Perhaps I only seem to have tunnel vision due to your lack of perception as you seem to misconstrue excuse making as an act of compassion.

Yabby, as Celivia has pointed out, I'm excommunicatus. So I doubt I could be a devout Muslim living in Iraq since having been proved to be not a devout Christian not living in Iraq. I think I heard Muslims everywhere give a collective sigh of relief.

Hey guys! This shouldn’t be so much about different religious or non-religious viewpoints.

I actually think it a good thing for different faiths, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc and also humanists-non faith people to explain their position and why. Especially, why. As long as no one forces another to their beliefs and makes the other to be evil and immoral. Those who believe in God, surely also believe that it is God who judges. Not mortals.

The point is that when something like abortion is legally available does not automatically mean that it is necessarily the only choice to deal with an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. No one is forced to use this option.

For me the issue has always been that abortion is available, legally in a qualified medical and caring environment. With good counseling to assist someone make their OWN decision. It is up to the individual woman, and ideally, her partner, to make sure that what is decided is congruent with their beliefs.

With that, and many of us seem to agree on this, we shouldn’t be complacent on the numbers of abortions. After all, they should be seen, mainly, as failed planning/contraception. An abortion is a surgical procedure. It’s preferable to avoid this, there are risks attached.

Now to PeterD:. “and it is interesting that you acknowledge that you, as an individual, existed from the moment of conception. Thank you for amitting it.”

I would suggest that you take some reading lessons yourself. Absolutely NOWHERE did I give you reason to state the above. I did not exist from the moment of conception. I never stated this and would not have. For me this absolutely not true. If aborted, I would have manifested in another form. Life does not begin with conception and does not end with death.

Anything you ask me I will answer. Ethical and moral questions are hardest to answer when faced with an actual event. Often we can only guess, or hope, that we will act in a certain way.

What do you think of preventing abortions through contraceptive education and education on conception?

Aqva, I would not get carried away with brainstems...

At 25 days - the embryonic brain resembles the brain of a worm
At 40 days - the brain resembles the brain of a vertebrate
At 100 days - the brain resembles a mammalian brain
At 5 months - the brain resembles the brains of other primates

Peter D at some point you have to get your mind around the fact
that you are here basically due to chance, as are all of us.
Had your mom stopped for an extra cup of tea before making you,
chances are pretty high that you would not be here and would not
know about it.

In nature, far more potential beings of any species will
be created, then can ever survive. The shortage is not of
potential beings, but of parents who actually want to provide
the resources to raise them.

What I fail to understand with the religious, is that they go
on about some life that was denied and how terrible that is.
Well last month its likely that you and your wife flushed your
ovum and millions of sperms down life's toilet. That potential
child, with cute little feet and cute little legs and a cute smile,
was too denied a life! How terrible! For your own good reasons
you decided to not give it a life. Perhaps you can see the sense
in limiting your offspring to the amount that you can actually
raise, as other parents do.

Yet you want to preach to others
about how terrible they are, for not doing what you decided to
do. Your little moral line in the sand about holy zygotes, is
simply yours. Given that morality is subjective opinion, you
are free to hold that opinion, but most of us don't share it with
you and you clearly can show no good reason why we should.

Aqvarivs,

I was raised a catholic, was a virgin when I married, had five children in seven years, despite severe risks with possible death. I was promised that if I died I would be a martyr to the church and would wear a crown in heaven. Albeit, I considered that being a mother to my children was more important. My husband and I never used any means of contraception. Afterwards, we decided on complete celibacy. We never felt in any way victims However, I always considered that other people had the right to make their own decisions whatever they were.

I left the church because of profound theological issues. These problems I had had since very early on, and got progressively more demanding. No catholic theologian could provide answers. Finally, one bishop told me that I must not think about these, because: "women had brains like peas rattling round in a pumpkin". Aqvarivs, your constant harping on being a catholic, is all smoke and mirrors - you use it as an excuse. You have no understanding of the human condition, you are devoid of compassion, you see everying as a"sexist" war; you are a pathetic human being.

Catholicism with its acceptance of unnecessary suffering, sometimes horrific, but endowed with grace for the sufferer, for some idea of a reward in the next life (which some theologians question) is both passivist and nihilistic.

I respect all religious beliefs, but will always condemn whatever I see as horrors, misery and suffering accepted, and perpetuated in the name of religion.