Now we have a mini creation/evolution debate as a subplot within the abortion debate. This is not so surprising.

It is funny how people ask to keep religious ideas out of the debate, and then the same people start looking for justification within the Bible for their pro-choice argument. Such is the fickleness of this debate. What next I wonder?

The Bible is pretty consistent in that whenever it talks about the unborn it refers to them as having normal human status. This is true for David, who said in the Psalms, “You knit me in my mother’s womb, I am wonderfully made.” Also Luke talks about Jesus himself, when he was in the womb (less than 3 months), when mum met with her pregnant cousin Elizabeth.

If any of the non Bible believers who have now become inclined towards quoting the Bible can find a counter example to the Bible treating the unborn as fully human, please, let’s hear it.

R0bert and Yabby,
The only argument put forward so far supporting evolution is that most scientists believe in it. This is the ‘billion people in China can’t all be wrong’ type of argument. Fortunately, science is not a democracy. One scientist with a good argument can prevail over a multitude of others who perhaps are looking at the matter from the wrong angle. You can take comfort that you sit with the majority. I’ll take comfort that I sit with a small (but growing) number of scientists who are willing to stick their necks out, risk their reputations and any hope of university funding because of their convictions.

(I’ll counter Yabby’s “we see it happening every day before our eyes”, by saying, “no, we don’t”).

ok...lets put it this way for analysis purpose...if medical procedure for unplanned pregnancy is abortion included ceasing the life of the mother at the same time...how many unplanned pregnancy would occur...yep...close to zero...

So there are other factors currently that causes this to such a prevalent occurrence and now to point that social rejection is growing stronger...these factors have to be identified and addressed...

I think this is the fundamental point and the general direction of the force of change is if one still forms a part of unplanned pregnancy then you cannot expect/demand/behave to induce 'sympathy and understanding' to do what one wants...but accept that a balanced out come for all, mother, father and baby is the goal...

Sam

Sam "ok...lets put it this way for analysis purpose...if medical procedure for unplanned pregnancy is abortion included ceasing the life of the mother at the same time...how many unplanned pregnancy would occur...yep...close to zero..."

Like most of the pro-life arguments, your comment relies, not on the reality but on a non-existent hypothetical presumption.

I would observe a woman, pregnant against her will or expectation, is not interested in "hypotheticals" or your personal view of what suits your debating style. She is dealing with the reality that if she remains pregnant, it will significantly effect her life and if she aborts, that too may well significantly effect her life.

I would further note, whatever the womans decision, it is extremely unlikely to effect your life.

That said, I fail to see where your authority for her to comply with your desires or subject herself to you hypothetical constraints, when considering what she should do.

Some women finding themselves pregnant, may decide they do not want to deal with the possible guilt of abortion and so continue with an unwanted pregnancy but some will decide to go through with it.

Her body, her choice.

I suggest respecting her right of decision with not diminish you, your rights or your hypothetical decision if you were ever hypothetically pregnant.

Thank you, Col.

Mick V,
my purpose is to ask the religious to back up their claim that abortion is murder because they base this claim on the belief that God tells them that abortion is a sin. This debate’s topic is about whether it’s justified to claim that abortion is murder. I want to go back to the source, the Bible, so I can understand why religious people might think that abortion is murder.
IMO, the Bible is hardly pro-child given the fact that God killed or ordered to kill many babies and children, and people including pregnant women.

“…a counter example to the Bible treating the unborn as fully human, please, let’s hear it.”
“If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25
Here, the bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

There are several quotes that show no respect for pregnant women and their “fruits”:
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Numerous Christian denominations and religious groups agree that the bible does not condemn abortion and that abortion should continue to be legal.

Here’s the source of the this info: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

So, now that we know that the Bible does not condemn abortion, then why are millions of women be told what to do in the name of God?

col wrote "I would observe a woman, pregnant against her will or expectation, is not interested in "hypotheticals" or your personal view of what suits your debating style. She is dealing with the reality that if she remains pregnant, it will significantly effect her life and if she aborts, that too may well significantly effect her life. "

well col, it seems that you seem to be sitting like a frog in a well only paying attention to whats been paraded in front of you...one needs to get out and see the issue in its whole context...if not or refuse to then the first question becomes 'what is your real agenda'...

For example what do you say to fathers whom have taken mothers to court to stop them aborting their child...and failed...does not seem to explain 'all' things doess it...when a woman choses abortion over giving birth and handing the child over to the father for care and raising...so time to rethink your position that its solely the woman holding the can in an unplanned pregnancy situation...eh...

Sam
Ps~I dont believe I am 'anti' or 'pro'...what I am for is better available options for all concerned than the current...like a law that says a man can have his child in a relationship with a woman or when he choses not to be in a relationship with sole legal rights over the born child...ie increase the available legal options as main stream...all so that more unborn babies may live...

More bible quotes, put together by Ralph Nielsen,
so I'll paste them, just for Mick :)

GOD LOVES CHILDREN
Read what the Bible says about God's love for children:

According to God's law, children are not persons but the property of their fathers, who may sell
them as slaves (Exodus 21:7).

God promised to send wild animals to kill and eat the children of the Hebrews if they didn't obey
him. If they still didn't obey him, he promised to make them kill and eat their children themselves
(Leviticus 26:29; Deuteronomy 28:53).

God frequently ordered the Hebrews to kill all of the people in the lands they conquered. This
includes slaughtering all the children and all pregnant women (Deuteronomy 2:34; etc.).

If you do not obey God, he will punish your children and your children's children unto the third and
fourth generation (Exodus 20:5, 34:7; etc.).

God says, "Kill both man and woman, infant and suckling..." (1 Samuel 15:3).

God says, "Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes..." (Isaiah 13:6).

God says, "Happy is he that dashes your little ones against the stones" (Psalm 137:9).

Because some adults offended God, he deliberately drowned the entire human race (except the Noah
family). This included every little child and every pregnant woman (Genesis 6 & 7).

Does God really love children?