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The Forum > Article Comments > The abortion conundrum > Comments

The abortion conundrum : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 18/5/2007

Pro-choice advocates must remain eternally vigilant.

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Yabby, I know that the human population presents the planet with a crisis. There are way too many of us. But, how is it relevant to the discussion?

If the foetus is not a human, then you can kill it without any discussion or any need for justification. Just go for it.

If it is a human, then killing it is not justified even if the killing alleviates the population crisis. Or, if saving the planet really is an excuse for killing, then we needn't stop at the unborn, but should plunge the knife deep into the general population.

Pax,
Posted by goodthief, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 10:20:48 PM
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Well said Yabby. I would like the prolifers to at least consider human existence as a cycle before they keep referring to informed women having abortions as murderers. As you rightly point out, the potential pre-fusion or pre-clone humanity eclipses the most optimistic estimate of what the Earth can support. To equate the destruction of a cognitive and interacting human being with the destruction of human life at a pre-cognitive level is an absurdity. But as you would frequently note, the prolifer's disregard for pre-fusion humanity is at least equal to th pro-choice disregard for pre-cognitive humanity. At least you and I acknowledge that human existence is a bit more complex than the fusion of two gametes.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 10:46:38 PM
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Yvonne,
Sorry if I appear to repeat some of your post, I hadn’t refreshed the page yet. Luckily there’s need for reiteration here :)

Mick and Denny,
A human embryo is not a human ‘being’. CR made a relevant comment about birth certificates. I would like to add that the parents of aborted embryos do not receive death certificates. Because this embryo was never a human being.

Having ‘potential to become a human being does not mean that an embryo has a right to be one.
A child can have potential to be a doctor, but if her parents take her out of school and make her work at a supermarket, then this person does not have the right to call himself a doctor no matter how much potential s/he had.
As long as the embryo can only live inside the womb, its rights should not overrule the rights of the mother.

Runner,
There may be many people wanting to adopt but the not nearly enough; and the child foster system is terribly inadequate.
Actually, I don’t know why anyone in their right mind can be against abortion at all- we need to discriminalise the law, or else we are no better off than the days of backyard abortions.
If you vote AGAINST abortion, you automatically vote FOR backyard abortions.

Goodthief,
I was present at the birth of my two children as well and just like your wife, I felt an instant connection with and love for the embryos even though I knew very well that they were just a bunch of cells. However, I did not ever have unwanted pregnancies but guess what- I can still empathise with women who feel despair instead of the delight.
It is equally cruel to force a woman to carry a child that she does not want, than it is to force an abortion on a woman who loves her embryo. That’s why the decision must remain the woman’s prerogative right.

And, keep dreaming about ‘rescuing’ unwanted embryos. Many unwanted children end up being neglected, abused, or end up as criminals
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 10:49:50 PM
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Is an acorn an oak tree?
Posted by sharkfin, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 11:29:08 PM
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Yes yvonne, it was, but if we are going to bank our arguments with emotive probabilities lets also show the greedy selfish residue of the self absorbed female. Statistically the greatest number of abortions are being had by a percent of the female population that by incidence can be cause for a profile. She is single, twenty-something, educated, and has a job. I don't see victim of life or circumstance presiding over this profile. I see actions before consequences and a confidence that surgery will solve tomorrows issue. And I see politic as empowerment gone astray and a devaluation of male involvement in procreation, and I am personally sickened that any educated woman would willingly allow themselves to be corrupted by the few angry women that place themselves before all women and their considerations. The idea that all a man has to do is keep his pants on or hand over his wallet but, in any event shut the F up. This is a womans right and a womans issue alone. This attitude makes me very concerned for my daughters future respect and advice that is to come from her generations sisterhood, when your generation places no value on life but their own misunderstood sense of empowerment. Yes abortion has definable medical necessity. And I fully support choice. I do not support the advocating of abortion. I'm disgusted that abortion is being advocated to preserve a lifestyle and in order to shirk a responsibility and a debt to a life that has become part of, and dependent at the same time on the internal workings of a womans complete biology.
The sentiment that, I can always have a "nother one" down the road exemplifies this preached disregard for human life disguised as womans rights and sexual freedom. It's contemptuous of life at it's very foundation and do not think I am excluding men from their responsibilities as father. I am not. I'm advocating they take up their responsibility to life along side women.
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:26:13 AM
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yvonne, "Any man who does not want the risk of paying for the upkeep of an unwanted offspring, keep your pants on." - Doesn't part of the anti-choice creed go something like "Any woman who does not want the risk of carrying an unwanted offspring, keep your pants on."

How is what you are saying any different to what they say?

The pro-choice position is weakened by women using similar arguments to those from the anti-choice position. Concerns about autonomy and the like seem more like arguments of convenience than genuine values when they are applied selectively and not across the board.

Celivia, "If the mother is making a reasonable income by herself, is able to afford everything that comes with raising a child, and both partners can come to a satisfying negotiation about the father’s (non) contribution, then of course, they may negotiate without court interference." - unfortunately the system makes that difficult. Family Tax Benefits (which the mother who is making a reasonable income by herself will be paying for) require that C$A be involved.

If our so called child support system was more realistic then I'd find it easier to agree. The current formula and sexist application of the system are groslly unfair and perpetuate conflict between parents. Again the reminder for those who think I'm just another absentee dad whining about the money - I'm the prime carer of my son (12 to 13 nights a fortnight normally and most of the school holidays so far).

I'm also still supposed to be a C$A payer. I've been advised by C$A that there is no way for us to have an agreement that they will recognise that is less than an assessed amount. To seek a reassessment would involve an unacceptable disclosure of private details to my ex and the difficult process of trying to prove that she really could work more than she has chosen to do in the past. A recipe for yet more conflict.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 24 May 2007 8:12:56 AM
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