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The Forum > Article Comments > My life, my death, my choice > Comments

My life, my death, my choice : Comments

By Bill Alcock, published 11/5/2007

Indefinitely awaiting the blessing of death to release us from our despair ...

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Congratulations Bill, More rational people should speak up on the issue instead of leaving the high ground to the Right to life fanatics.Essentially it is a decision for the individual to make and you are correct when you said the Northern Territory had it right.
The rights of the terminally ill was introduced into the N.T. Parliament by the Chief Minister of the Day, Marshall Perron who had witnessed a loved one linger.
The law was vetoed by Federal Parliament through a bill introduced by Right to Life promoter Kevin Andrews.
Nevertheless, Philip Nietzke is still championing individual's rights to die with dignity and the growth of 'EXIT' and civil disobedience might hopefully see a return to common sense and individual rights.
Posted by maracas, Friday, 11 May 2007 9:50:37 AM
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I'm so with you Bill. My lovely 99 year old aunt has just had a leg amputated and is now totally bed-ridden and miserable, she wishes she had died under anaesthetic. I have an inoperable brain tumour and feel I have the right to voluntary euthanasia to avoid what will be an agonizing death when the time comes. How dare any politicians deny us this choice, just because they fear the votes of the religious right, driven by idiocy and superstition. Why should a humane death be denied to the rest of us by those who want to impose their cruel and silly beliefs on everyone else ? I just hope those people die in lingering pain and that they have to watch their relatives go through this as well, all in the name of the "God of Love". Maybe then, when they experience at first hand the real outcome of their rigid beliefs, things will begin to change.
Posted by kang, Friday, 11 May 2007 9:53:14 AM
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Hear, hear Bill. I don't see how a government that champions individual choice can deny us this fundamental right. Have a google for professor Drion speech in 2001. It is the clearest rationale for the right to choose.
Posted by gusi, Friday, 11 May 2007 10:53:45 AM
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We are kinder to animals than we are to ourselves. Don't let poor old Shep suffer, but Aunty Maud must bite the bullet and hang on until pain and despair finally take her out, no matter how long that may be.

There are many people in our society whom I dislike and despise. Up near the very top of the list are the Right to Life maniacs who seem intent on preventing other people from dying in peace and dignity.

I would pay the price of a Grand Final ticket to watch these po-faced creeps suffer the sort of lousy death they want the rest of us to bear to uphold their weird idea of 'right'.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 11 May 2007 10:58:20 AM
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The right to lifers beliefs are based in superstition and fear.

Instead of handing the responsibility to the Christian God,
the pro choice lobby are taking responsibility themselves.

We baby boomers are beginning to 'come through' if you like, and
we will not take the Government's present law lying down. You can bet on it!!

Lesley
Posted by lesley, Friday, 11 May 2007 11:19:08 AM
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Lesley, that is one glimmer of hope - the baby boomer influence. I certainly hope it will make a difference, though by the time they reach that stage in life, they may not still be voting...

Good article.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:00:52 PM
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Good on you Bill, I couldn't agree more. My grandfather has just had to go in to a nursing home in the city as his country town does not have facilities for high care. After 87 years in one small town (apart from his years fighting in WWII), he has been moved in to a place where he knows nobody. Sadly, while his body has deteriorated, his mind is still intact. He spends his days mixed in with residents who have severe dementia. Everytime we visit, he tells us he wishes he was dead - it is heartbreaking to someone you love in this position, he ought to be able to make the decision to go peacefully and with dignity at a time of his own choosing.

While there is obviously a vocal minority pushing their religious beliefs on all of us in relation to euthanasia, nobody I have ever discussed this with has disagreed that individuals ought to be able to make the choice. I sincerely hope that the baby boomers raise their voices on this issue and bring about the change that the majority seem to want.
Posted by 1340, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:24:12 PM
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Religious beliefs aside, its a massive step for any government to take. We live in a society that condemns the taking of life in any other form (include capital punishment). Suicide isnt illegal, but to get assistance from someone else, well that's murder no matter what way you frame it. Its might be compassionate murder, but its still murder. Whilst I dont necessarily see that a change in laws to allow this is a bad thing (so long as all the necessary safe-guards are in place), I still think its a big jump to make, and one that probably wont be made for some time. Once the step is made we stand at the top of a very slippery slope. Eg, if we make it legal to help someone die because they are terminally ill or invalided through old age, why dont we make the same allowance for those that are mentally ill, or chronically depressed. particularly the latter have a tendency to commit suicide (or try) anyway, so should we make a humane option available to them too, or is that different? I dont see that there is that much that seperates the two, although I think that very few would support the second option.
Posted by Country Gal, Friday, 11 May 2007 1:08:37 PM
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Country Gal
To provide someone with information as to painless and humane means of ending one's life is not murder.
Don't cloud the issue. It was not a massive step for the Northern Territory Government. The law worked well for a couple of people who chose to end their suffering before Kevin Andrews and his ilk intervened and quashed the law because the N.T. is not yet a 'State'
Posted by maracas, Friday, 11 May 2007 1:58:35 PM
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Ah Bill, your message is straight from the heart...It is always about choice for the individual, taking into account that individuals ability to cope.

I get so angry with the Right to Life people assuming that everyone lives by their values. I believe that if a person thinks suffering is an enriching part of the living process they're most welcome to their additional brownie points on this earth by all means.

As an atheist and a humanist, I believe that man was not meant to suffer unnecessarily which is why the body has such a sensitive threshold to pain.....I've never been one for kicks for sake of it, so I don't gain any pleasure out of the experience. I don't want to suffer unnecessarily without the prospect of a cure or a return to a life worth living.

The Health Profession can tart up a building with flowers and fresh paint, but at the end of the day....it is what is happening to the person from within...that makes the difference. If the essence of the person, the spirit from within is dead! - then all else is superfluous.

Mary Walsh
www.yourchoiceindying.com
Posted by yourchoiceindying.com, Friday, 11 May 2007 4:07:44 PM
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When the pain of living outweighs your pleasures in life and there is no hope for improvement then it seems reasonable to let you go.
Posted by billie, Friday, 11 May 2007 4:09:42 PM
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Well done Bill it's about time this debate was opened so the little people could be heard.Because the People that run this country do not listen.I had a beautiful Wolfhound aged 8 years old.She fell sick over Christmas 2005 as soon as I could I got her in to the vet.He ran some tests and a week later he operated on her.I got a phone call asking me what would I like done.She was riddled with cancer.The vet could patch her up but she might only live another 3 weeks and that would be in the vet Hospital.It broke my heart but I chose to let her slip away while she was under the anesthetic.Whats this got to do with this debate?I will explain. My Father fell ill for 13 weeks his Doctor treated him for Flue.My Brother phoned me with his concerns.I live in another State,So I organised over the phone for a different Doctor in a Different Practice to see my Father.I phoned my Brother and told him the arrangements.The Doctor did a lot of tests.Finally he was sent to a specalist.Who sent him to Adelaide for exploratory surgery.He was riddled with cancer,nothing could be done for him, so they sewed him back up and told him He had 3 months to live,My Brother and I spent every day and night at the Hospital for Ten days,He couldn't eat and in the end even an eyedropper with water he couldn't take. He would scream out with the pain.He was on automatic morphein drip and even that couldn't relieve the pain.So which is the more Humane way.?
Certainly not to sew him back up and tell him he had months to live.Why couldn't he have been allowed to slip away on the operating table, like my dog.At least She died with dignity.Yes we do need to be able to decide for ourselves when we have suffered enough.Not have some politician take that right away from us.That is what we vote for The Right TO Be Heard.Thank you again Bill
Posted by charlee, Friday, 11 May 2007 7:23:12 PM
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How interesting that this article appears on OLO. Yesterday, 10th May, a major enquiry into Death through euthanasia, palliative care and compliance/accuracy with reporting was released in the Netherlands.

Many of you probably know that voluntary euthanasia was made legal in the Netherlands in 2002.

Here are some stats: use of palliative care increased, deep palliative sedation at the end also increased from 8,500 patients 4 years ago to 9,700 patients last year and the number of people dying through euthanasia dropped from 3,500 patients in a previous year to 2,300 last year.

Suicide by self occurred 300 times 4 years ago, this dropped to 100 cases last year. These are not general suicide numbers, but as an end of life decision in case of incurable life threatening illness.

These are interesting statistics for Australians to look at. The fear that legislation would mean a slide down a slippery slope are unfounded. What it shows is that when people are actively involved in their own end of life decisions it returns dignity and control to autonomous adults.

Of all the requests for euthanasia only a very small percentage of patients in the end actually need to carry through with it. Mostly it is enough to know that this avenue exists and that this can be openly discussed.
Posted by yvonne, Saturday, 12 May 2007 12:34:50 AM
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Hope it happens for you when you need it.

I do wonder why religions oppose this when they promise "paradise" after we die. Why do they then want to deprive us of entry to this marvellous place? Work that out someone.

As to euthanasia (should be called unwellanasia) is not something a government with a cryogenically preserved PM can have can they? That's the only reason for his constant apparent stubborness. He can't change his thinking as he's actually dead. Just stuffed really, like our country.
Posted by RobbyH, Saturday, 12 May 2007 5:48:46 AM
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Those who use the “slippery slope” tactic are attempting to hide their religious agenda. The tactic is to spread the fear that once accepted in principle, then by degrees more and more “social embarrassments” such as the mentally ill and maybe even the chronically unemployed will be dispatched against their wishes.

There is always the suspicion that signing a consent form while very ill may have been under pressure by family who may want release from their own discomfort of seeing a loved one in distress. The easiest way of getting around this is that if you wish to be euthanised, then make a video of yourself stating your wishes while you still can.

This article mentioned the cost of keeping those in a pathetic state alive. The pro-lifers who carry on about the sanctity of human life never ask themselves how many thousands of children in Africa who die every day from preventable causes could be saved by the resources put into keeping the over-80s alive in the developed world
Posted by healthwatcher, Saturday, 12 May 2007 7:49:27 AM
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'My life, my death, my choice'. It is a pity the right to deathers don't apply the same principle to unborn babies.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 12 May 2007 8:17:58 AM
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Runner, stay on track! What you mention is another issue entirely

Lesley
Posted by lesley, Saturday, 12 May 2007 9:51:38 AM
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i just wish the 'anti-abortion', anti-euthanasia' mob were equally 'anti-war'.
Posted by DEMOS, Saturday, 12 May 2007 10:49:32 AM
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We only need to change the law in one state, then the game is over.
I think supporters of VA must become more militant by targeting politicians who campaign against VE.
An ad in the newspaper pointing out these people would have them on the run very quickly.

In the absence perhaps a living will tattooed on our bodies, spelling out our wishes might help in the event we lose our capacity to decide.
Posted by valter, Saturday, 12 May 2007 11:48:33 AM
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Excellent article Bill.

These pro-life pollie tossers are elected by the people for the people. How dumb are we?

There's something wrong with our democratic system when the minority dictate to the majority. All reports to date, on the issue of euthanasia, reveal these sadists are out-numbered.

Bring on the referendum! A successful "Yes" vote will not deprive the God zealots of their chosen manner of dying where they wish to placate their "loving", though equally sadistic deities.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 12 May 2007 1:16:53 PM
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It is precisely because the politicians know the outcome we don't have a referedum on voluntary euthanasia.

When the Right to Life lobbyists take their viewpoints seriously enough to stop wars, then I may start to respect their values.

One of the worst countries in the world for killing people and providing the war machines to ensure it is done "easily" is America.one of the strongest opponents of both euthanasia and abortion.

Like Christianity is generally selective about all manner of things, including enforcement of celibacy on average ordinary male priests, Christianity seeks to enforce its views on other human failings...the inability to endure intolerable pain.

I wonder if we took religion out of politics and created the law based strictly on lawful issues, how simple the process would become.
I think it was "Country Girl" who worries about voluntary euthaansia in the context that it is murder. It is not...VE is entirely without malice of forethought and is intended to relief pain alone, not to deprive a person who wants to live, of their life.

What we need is take the word "murder" right away from the intention of voluntary euthanasia and just simply use its correct terminoly - a peaceful death.

Mary Walsh
www.yourchoiceindying.com
Posted by yourchoiceindying.com, Saturday, 12 May 2007 1:53:25 PM
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Open public defiance is the answer. This topic is running elsewhere on OLO:

Do-it-yourself voluntary euthanasia for older Australians

A number of older Australians are joining forces to make the suicide drug nembutal available. This drug is illegal in Australia and this open act of civil disobedience puts these people at risk of severe penalties. But why should they have to go through this when the vast majority of Australians want legal access to voluntary euthanasia anyway?

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=265577&_cobr=optus

[Separate comment]

A few years ago, two relatives and the doctor of a woman who was allegedly illegally voluntarily euthanised in Western Australia were charged with murder. Apparently against the evidence, the jury took only a very short time to acquit the defendants. The prosecution probably must have realised what they were up against and didn't appeal the verdict.

In the average jury of twelve men and women, chosen at random, 9 or 10 would be in favour of voluntary euthanasia being legally available in Australia, at least some of them most decidedly so. Probably hard to get a guilty verdict under those circumstances, regardless of the evidence, if the allegedly murdered person could be shown as definitely wanting to die. [And don't let's have any right-to-lifers, openly declared or not, trying to cloud the issue, you all know what I mean!]

I know if I were on such a jury, I would do my utmost to persuade my fellow jury members to join me in a "not guilty" verdict, that is if any of them would need much persuasion anyway.
Posted by Rex, Saturday, 12 May 2007 4:51:09 PM
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Well said Rex! Great comment. Someone has mentioned a referendum on the matter, and that if one State approved VE, then it would be game set and match. I don't know how it is decided to hold a referendum, nor do I have skills in lobbying etc. So if someone out there does.........

You speak of Public Disobedience. It seems to me that the best way
to be publicly disobedient is for a group of Concerned Citizens, (a goodly number), say 40? 20? who could afford a trip to Mexico, to go
there together, and each bring back (try and get out of America first of course) to Australia a bottle of Nembutal, each. The press would have a field day, when the Customs People tried to lock 40? 20? oldies and not so oldies, don't you think? I'll probably have the Feds. knocking on my door any time soon, so if go quiet, you'll know I've been locked up. Would not worry me at all. I could write letters from goal.

Lesley
Posted by lesley, Saturday, 12 May 2007 5:12:03 PM
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A bit more on the civil disobedience concept:

Hard pill to swallow
March 19, 2005

A group of euthanasia supporters is working on the development of a suicide pill, writes Philip Nitschke.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Hard-pill-to-swallow/2005/03/18/1111086014773.html

This is a particularly interesting extract from the above article:

"Exit's aim in developing a Peaceful Pill is clear: to replicate the painless, easeful death provided by a drug like Nembutal. We now have two very different projects under way, both aiming to create the means by which Exit members can provide for themselves the option of a peaceful death, at a time of their choosing.

The first of these projects concerns the creation of a home-made version using ingredients that have such widespread use in society that they will never be restricted. Nicotine, alcohol and paracetamol are just a few examples.

To date, this project has led to a pill being developed from nicotine and chlorinated alcohol, but with testing so problematic, laboratory trials are set to continue into the foreseeable future."

Maybe, for saying such things, I'll be getting a knock on the door, in the middle of the night, from the RTL Secret Police. Ah, but I'll know they're coming when I hear their marching song, Onward Christian Soldiers!
Posted by Rex, Saturday, 12 May 2007 6:50:20 PM
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I remember having a conversation with my mother about this when my dear pop was dying in agony.It was unfair, painful and not what he wanted. People need to realise that its not a scene from Bold and the Beautiful - im sure it will be regulated somehow if made legal, but everyone has different choices. Why doesnt our government listen?
Posted by Carley, Saturday, 12 May 2007 8:34:27 PM
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"I do wonder why religions oppose this when they promise "paradise" after we die."

RobbyH, if you dig around deep in the bowels of Catholic philosophy,
they will tell you that its quite noble to suffer. Opus Dei, a
cult within the church, even use little whips to whip themselves,
all very kinky lol. But thats the crux of it.

If you took notice when the NT tried to legalise euthanasia,
it was largely Catholic politicians who came from everywhere to
can it. The influence of the Catholic spin machine has its
tentacles mixed up in the political process, far more then most
would know or think.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 12 May 2007 8:40:59 PM
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Good article Bill.

Just like to add my support. Maybe we should start a campaign for Citizen Initiated Referenda, but that would be too democratic and the politicians would not have that.

CIR was one of Paulines policies and see what the system did to her. A new party has no chance of getting off the ground, no matter what their ideals and policies.

Am afraid we are stuck with what we have and i cannot see voluntary euthanasia getting the nod.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 12 May 2007 10:17:20 PM
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I think an interesting flipside to looking at the right to die argument is to ask the question "Do we have a duty to live?".

If the answer is yes it would have interesting consequence for medicare and other healthcare issues.
Posted by gusi, Sunday, 13 May 2007 1:49:26 AM
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Well said 'Rex'. You're right, we have to become Louder and Incessant, NOW.
They won't do anything for us because we are a) (some of us) ill,
b) middle aged to elderly, c)not wealthy or with Influence d)mostly of an age where Breaking the Law was unthinkable! Up to 100 people could hire a 'plane, fly to Mexico,and purchase their Nembutal, or anywhere else in the world where Nembutal is sold over the counter for vet, use.
Smuggling Nembutal into Australia via a shipping route. Find people who import heroin, who make 'ice' or have any contacts in this sub-terranean world (Yes, we will be reduced to that!), to teach us how to get in on the act, for Nembutal only. We have Discussed, followed the Accepted paths for public comment, Marched down the Main Street, held weekends of Shame in the nation's capital (small 'c' intended), and protested in all manner of ways, some of us have even been charged with murder and goaled, and/or Tried in a courtroom.
If enough of the 80% ?million people, in Australia follow the civil
disobedience pathway, there will be nothing they can do except put us in goal. This, of course, would not be an option for the Government.
Go to www.dwdv.org.au. Although this is a site in Victoria, they have links all over Australia and the world all about euthanasia.
And, as I type this, thousands of Grannies, Grandpas, Auntie Maude's and Uncle Charlies are languishing, intensely sad, in great discomforture, and full of grief. You all realise, of course, that this comment amounts to Sedition. I am inciting people to be Civilly Disobedient. I am 70, not in good health, but, people, somehow
I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!!
Lesley
Posted by lesley, Sunday, 13 May 2007 5:13:31 PM
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Maybe some of the so-called Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs would be prepared to apply their alleged expertise to making nembutal available to those in need. This could be a very embarrassing situation for the Federal and various State governments to see us older, basically conventional Australians turning to "Outlaws" for the help which is refused by those who are supposed to be democratically acting on our behalf.

After all, these "Outlaws" have older family members and friends too who may be literally crying out for a peaceful end to their lives. And none of us know when we may require nembutal for ourselves, do we?

I would imagine that OLO is monitored for sedition and it wouldn't be hard for my identity to be figured out. Well, I don't give a damn, I would be happy to go on TV and openly say the same thing. At least I'm honest, which is more than can be said for many of the religious extremist politicians which Australia is unfortunately burdened with.
Posted by Rex, Sunday, 13 May 2007 7:06:13 PM
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Go Lesley! I hope that this fight is won before I get old and frail and bcome reliant on my distant and uncaring nephews and nieces.
Posted by billie, Sunday, 13 May 2007 7:46:38 PM
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May the hippies of the 60s, who are now the golden oldies, rise
yet once again to change the laws by people power!

Yippee, go for it!
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 13 May 2007 8:16:35 PM
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The most difficult issue surrounding this debate is who is to decide when you should die. Now at present my view is very strongly that I do not want to suffer needlessly. When I am terminally ill and have no quality of life then I would be ready to kill myself. The problem is that by then I may be incapable. Thus if I am not to suffer someone else must do it for me. Who? And how do they decide? These are difficult ethical questions; and like most ethical questions have no clear answers. Perhaps the secret is to kill oneself on the last day that one is able to do so.

In a slight digression may I also observe that one of the pleasures of OLO is to find oneself in full agreement on one topic with a correspondent with whom one has had major differences of opinion with on another topic; and of course vice-versa. dickie, I agree fully with your comments here. runner, please be aware that although I may favour assisted suicide or, under some yet to be determined conditions, euthanasia I am very much opposed to abortion which I consider to be the murder of someone with their entire useful and enjoyable life in front of them. I am sure many other people make this distinction.
Posted by Reynard, Monday, 14 May 2007 1:51:08 PM
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It is quite unbelievable reading all the posts here on this issue. There is such overwhelming support for legislation on this issue it is strange we do not have one.

Again, read up on the experience in the Netherlands. And also read up on the excellent legislation that the NT had in place. The safeguards are well thought out. Even when a person asks and is deemed 'suitable' this does not automatically mean that a person will make use of this.

It is not a simple case of 'signing on the dotted line' and then that's it. It is not a surgical procedure.

As for Christians. There are Christians who have wrestled with this in the Netherlands. Some philosophies will be absolutely opposed and it remains up to the individual to know whether or not euthanasia is ever an option. In the Netherlands there are Christians who have answered when euthasasia is acceptable using their interpretation of the scriptures.

Having said that, like abortion, it is never an option that has to be taken.

I know of persons who have taken their own life in terrible circumstances, all alone. It has left loved ones devastated.

Modern medicine has a double edged sword. We would never want to go back to being victim to illnesses to which we are helpless victims. Quality of life is extended considerably, but that also means that the end journey can be unreasonably protracted, undignified and painful.
Posted by yvonne, Monday, 14 May 2007 7:33:51 PM
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Excellent article Bill. I too am pleasantly surprised by the total agreement of its readers. Perhaps collectively something can be achieved by pressing for a referendum...
Posted by arcticdog, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 2:09:36 PM
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Well argued and persuasive. If we baby boomers leave behind the primacy of the individuals rights over the state, then our time here has been well spent.
Posted by Netab, Monday, 21 May 2007 8:52:36 AM
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