Really not so long ago, all people practising academia were called philosophers. Yet not many Christian leaders were called philosophers, because philosophy is so very much based on reason or reasoning rather than faith.However, as every Humanities scholar has been taught, it is St Thomas Aquinas who is classed in today's light as one of the greatest philosophers as well as the greatest theologian.

The suggestion earlier about our discussions having been likened to the Enlightenment phrase about philosophers looking for answers on a pinhead, was really about the need to turn to Biblical Faith to stop wasting time.

We need to take note of immensely valuable comments from an Iranian woman lawyer, who said though she believes Iran needs democracy, her experience of America since the end of WW2, means that it is certainly not the Democracy of the American Way.

The way Unipolar Americana has carried on since the Bush regime has been in charge, many of us could well agree with her.

Philip Tang

"Should Muslims be in a majority Islam becomes a political system. It is not tolerant of other religions and establishes barbaric laws based on the Koran that is alien to democracies and socialist countries. Without any exception all Muslim-majority countries have laws that forbid Muslims from renouncing Islam."

Is this true in Indonesia? If so why are their so many Christians there? In fact many of their Muslim leaders have been very liberal.

BOAZ

You keep referring to medieval times, perhaps you should include the Inquisition. If you try to tell me that the Pope and the Holy See at the time were not practicing Christians I will be very confused.

logic,
My perception is that Indonesia was largely secular under the regimes of Sukarno and Suharto. However, with the stepping down of Suharto, the country has become more chaotic, ‘democratic’ and Islamist.

Islamists will make use of democracy to kill democracy. How be it? When an Islamic-based party comes to power they would establish Sharia law. With Sharia law there really is no freedom of religion, because Muslims are not allowed to leave Islam and, it would be near impossible for other faiths to promote their religion. Turkey appears to be in such a situation.

Not too long ago (20 plus years) people of different faiths could mix freely especially in Indonesia but now with the rise of radical Islam and Arab influence all these have changed. An article by Baladas Ghoshal describes the situation in Indonesia quite accurately.

http://www.quantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-476/_nr-774/i.html?PHPSESSID=133099777

Boaz,

"what you don't realize (it appears) is that 'your' version of Islam is not that of many others"

Thats an interesting 'statement' which as usual you will go around, backpedal and bring in a couple of personal Asian experiences in an attempt to back your claims.

PS: I gave up on your intellectual honesty a while back, but at least when you quote extreme interpretations of the Quran like the Mawdudi, at least have the decency to explain to audience that what he wrote 9 centuries ago was under the influences of the Crusdaes attacks, the Monghols wars on Muslims. If you have a shred of fairness, please interpret to us Christianity and its intents for Islam as quoted by your very holy Pope Urban II.

But then again, even the poor pope mis-interpreted Jesus teachings.
Why nobody mis-interpreted Bhudda's teachings?

Fellow_Human, No one "mis-interprets" Buddhism because it is apolitical and has no inherent system of social governance. Buddhism is about individuals traveling to the same destination on their own path. Christianity and Islam is about conversion before the journey can begin and the road is mapped out in advance. Deviation is unacceptable and can get you excommunicated from the Church or your death ordered by fatwa. A Buddhist can not fail in his/her journey to spiritual understanding. At the very worst a Buddhist will be reborn as part of the continual cycle of life and death, and Nirvana, joining the spiritual ultimate Godhead, that personal struggle for enlightenment continues. Had Christianity and Islam been personal guides and not communal authorities the world would have had a much more peaceful history. And we would not presently be embroiled in this "Islamification" of Western secular culture.
People should read the link provided by Philip Tang. It highlights what many of us "religion as personal" types fear. The insidious imposition of Authoritarianism and social exclusionary practices. Principally, why we have developed secular societies.

Thanks aqvarivs (what’s with the “v” instead of “u”, please - some Roman/Latin thing?), I’ve read Philip Tang’s link and am alarmed again. (Philip, thank you for the link)

For myself, I regard my Christian faith as no mere personal thing, but something true that everyone needs. But, I realise this is not a popular notion, and anyhow I know I’m not permitted to force-feed.

Fellow Human, Boaz is right: no matter how pleasant many Muslims are, we still have to guard against the kind of Islamization that is going on in Indonesia. I’d like to think it couldn’t happen in Australia – we’re just too lucky – but you’re not in a position to offer any guarantees, are you?

Boaz, I think the best thing we can do to in defence is to do all we can to encourage the kind of Islam that the author and Fellow Human appear to represent. As a Christian, like you, I am ambivalent about this because, of course, I am then encouraging something that is based on a belief I regard as seriously flawed (in its denial of Jesus’ divinity). However, as we live in a secular society rather than Christendom, I think this is the way to go. I “tolerate” (good of me, isn’t it?) atheists, so I should tolerate Muslims. Politically, I’m interested in peace and harmony, not truth. What do you think?

Pax,