Sharkfin, I hope my posts above, which present perhaps a conventional view of the subject, don’t seem to support women being mistreated by their husbands.

I’m talking about what I see as the ideal regarding sex. I know there are many wives whose husbands simply don’t/didn’t “love” them – love them in practice, I mean. Too many mistreat their wives to their face or they turn away (whether by sleeping around or not). I think it’s largely ignorance, and not malice, but it’s still destructive. (Robert’s right about the flipside, of course, but I’m not going into that just now.)

Anyhow, for a man to abuse his wife is, if you will excuse the understatement, far from ideal. Not what I’m recommending at all.

I have concentrated on procreation (and, I suppose, marriage) as necessary to an understanding of what sex is, as my comment on promiscuity, including commercial promiscuity. Within marriage, I know that sex should be integral to the pact of love the couple entered into at the start - you know, real affection, respect and eye contact.

You say that women should “get on the pill and charge every man for sex and enjoy themselves”. To me, this sounds like anger (tit for tat). Are you really saying that women will find love this way? Is it, “Well, I lucked out there (my husband didn’t love me), so let’s try this (sleeping with men who don’t even pretend to love me)”? I’d be so surprised if that works.

Robert, a few posts above, makes a plea for “those unable to be part of a viable relationship”. I’m not sure exactly who he has in mind, but I know the community (so-called) includes a lot of very lonely people. People who need love. I also know that loneliness can lead to a terrible hunger for whatever human contact is on offer.

Again, a terrible understatement: this situation is not ideal, and the sex it results in will not be ideal.

I don't think sex is the solution to all the awful woes that afflict people.

Pax,

I think there are no clearcut black and white issues here, all
relationships are different.

What we do know from surveys taken, is that most
clients of prostitutes are in fact married men! That could
be for a myriad of reasons. Lets face it, some women do try
to use sex as a power weapon within marriage. So I don't blame
some guys for getting sick of this and wandering off.

Some marriages have in fact been turned into a business. If we
look at some divorce settlements, few prostitutes could even
earn that kind of money.

Some men are bastards, some women are nitpicking bitches, once
again, its not black and white.

So to understand the world, I look at the laws of nature and
then it all kind of makes sense lol. Pairbonding is an evolved
trait, to assist in providing resources, to feed the offspring
in critical years. Its common in many species, although in
nearly all of them, a quiet quickie on the side is also common :)
as it provides an evolutionary advantage. So we are not much
different in our behaviour then other species in this regard.

Relationships form for all kinds of reasons. Some are lonely,
so pairbond with whoever is available at the time and
circumstance. Some meet their soulmate. Some start with
a sexual attraction. Again no black and whites here.

There are plenty of university students who finance their
degrees by a few highly paid, discreet, financially compensated
affairs. So what? I don't have a moral problem with that as
its just like it happens in nature and has for eons in time.

Yabby, What I'm suggesting is wrong with the practices you're recommending is that they overlook the fact that sex is, by its nature, a procreative act. They're pretending it isn't. This means their behaviour is, so to speak, "false".

I'm not expecting agreement here, of course.

And I don't find looking back down the evolutionary path helpful. I believe we humans - even if we are simply evolved - are higher than any other animal. Because of this, we can aspire higher in the way we live. "Higher" includes our superior ability to understand what we do.

Pax,

goodthief, "I don't think sex is the solution to all the awful woes that afflict people." - agreed. I don't think that paying for intimacy is a good solution to anything but then I've not walked other peoples shoes. Maybe it is the best that some people can get.

I have a perception that some people have very little physical contact with others, that they don't have socially acceptable ways of sharing intimacy (and not just sex). During the period following my marriage breakup until I started dating I rarely touched another adult except for handshakes, there are not a lot of ways that adult males can do so unless they have a good group of friends around them (which they often don't by the time a marriage breaks down).

I had one good friend who would share a hug from time to time but I noticed how much I missed physical contact. I've got a couple of single female friends at the moment who have expressed similar feelings.

There are those who for a variety of reasons find it hard to form viable romantic relationships. Others choose to stay in relationships where they don't feel any intimacy and don't see a workable way out.

I wonder how much of the prostitution business is mostly about people trying to get some kind of intimacy regardless of how much of a poor substitute it is.

I think most of struggle to seperate out touch, intimacy and sex at times. They can be quite different things but they also overlap.

On the other hand it may be that some people are just desperate for sex and using a prostitute is a less complicated way of getting it than by other means (and probably cheaper).

R0bert

"they overlook the fact that sex is, by its nature, a procreative act."

Goodthief, let me ask you a question, which you clearly do not
need to answer in public, but is worth thinking about. How many times have you had sex
and how many times for you was procreation the goal, how many times because you needed intimacy or
simply because it feels good?

I put it to you that sex for most people is about fullfilling deep
evolutionary needs and because it feels good. Procreation is simply
natures way to make sure the species survives. Those who don't enjoy
sex, are less likely to have children. To put it bluntly, if you
wake up with an erection, its not because you want to procreate, that
is on your mind lol.

Sure we humans have a larger neocortex then other species. Others
run faster, are stronger, whatever, our niche to make a living is
a larger brain. Nothing amazing about that, as far as I am concerned.
My dogs are quite capable of going out and catching a rabbit for
dinner. Their dinner is assured. Physically I can't do what they
do, my niche in the world is my brain.

Given that we have a larger neocortex and according to you are
"higher", what makes you think that we are not hugely influenced by
our genes and evolutionary past? What about all those hormones,
peptides, ligands etc, which influence our behaviour?

Robert writes about a "yearning" for intimacy. Women talk about
a yearning for children. Men talk about a yearning for sex.
Do you really think its wise to ignore the huge influence that
your genes have, in shaping whom we are and why we are as we are?

I suggest you check out some basic neuroscience. The neocortex only
makes up a part of the brain, all the rest has a huge influence
in shaping who you are and how you are, even if these things are
at the level of the subconcious and you are not aware of them or have
never thought about them

I wouldn't imagine that there would be any intimacy in the relationship between prostitute and john. A prostitute has reduce their existence to natures plumbing and "space for let". The john can manufacture any fantasy but, essentially that sex act remains a strangers hand. There is no relationship, there is no intimacy, and what is probably the key motivator, loneliness, must still be dealt with come the next morning. And yes. Many many married men are lonely. Much more so than married women. This is not sexist. It is because woman being supported in the role of primary care giver have a opportunity to express their love with their children that men do not, and are encouraged in very subtle ways, to not to express overtly natural love. AS more and more women leave the home for the "higher status" of work, more and more women find themselves estranged from family, love, and increasing loneliness. One of the benefits reported in discussions with stay at home Dads is their reported sense of belonging and familiar satisfaction. They feel more connected and loving. Something not offered by the standing social expectations.