Thank you for bringing this up. I see this as the real terrorism. Can you imagine watching your children die and not being able to change the outcome. This need not happen, it is due to thoughtless greed and an economic sysytem that takes from whose with little and gives it to those with abundance. It must stop. Another source of terror is Russia's action in Chechnya and China's actions in Tibet. Once again the commercial benefits of the few take precidence.

What an eye opener of the state of the world and strategies to combat it. Until we see our world as part of us we will continue to be narrowly focussed on our own wants.Tim's vision of addressing the needs of the other half is to be commended. The other half cannot be ignored. We are all responsible for the other half. We neglect the other half to our own peril. We need to take stock before its too late to do anything about it. Let us do our part to heal the world. Poverty is a curse. Only the rich nations has the cure.

As much as I would like to feed all the staving kids and the pictures are certainly heart wrenching, that is not the answer to the problem.

If by some miricle, we adequatley fed all the starving what happens when all we saved start to breed, the their kids and then grandkids.

Over population thats what! Some claim the world is over populated now. The reality is that the better fed people are, the more they breed. What is the answer? No one will stop fornication, so do we have massive abortions or sterilizations, or birth control drugs in drinking water.

The sooner Tim and his ilk start looking at the basic problem and begin to find ways to solve that, the better off we will be.

I do know the answer is not improved feeding of the worlds population. That is simply compounding the problem.

Agree with Banjo, except the bit about being better fed producing more kids.

I think levels of education and access to birth control is probably much more of a factor.

Maybe a question to ask is 'so what'? There are too many people in the world already. As Banjo says, maybe we should start by encouraging population control as a means to control overconsumption of scarce resources.

cheers,

gw

Tim,
How can you and your brother have such opposite views, you are trying to help the poor, while your brother is making low income Australians poorer every day. You have compassion, he has none. If only "the rich" not rich countries because the wealth is concerntrated to a small portion of our population, began to see an opportunity in terms of global wealth, and treat these people as an asset instead of a liability. I also agree they have to be given the confidence to breed knowing that their child will survive, a basic human right, I believe they continue to produce children in the hope that one may survive. Good luck in your endeavours Tim.

BOILING BLOOD!
The particular phrases of this (and similar)article(s) makes my blood boil...

Tim begins with a heartrending account NOT of poverty but of CHILD EXPLOITATION and if you follow the chain of value adding down to the final destination, it must inevitably reach YOU AND ME ? (or those of us who see some great value in little chunks of hard stone dangling from their person.)

Then..he goes further by pointing out this: "injustices of poverty'

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Tim, its not the injustices OF poverty it is the INJUSTICE WHICH CAUSES the poverty!(how the blazes did your wierd logic get you incharge of World Vision? or is it your skillful use of that (ill)logic to raise funds which did it?)

Its the child exploitation ! get it? SO.. lets see how we can approach this problem.

1/ We can make a big noise about how many children die each year because of 'Poverty' (rather than the true cause EXPLOITATION)
2/ We can then run various public spectacles which have the main result of making US feel good, and do NOTHING to remove the source of the problem EXPLOITATION by GREEDY AMORAL PEOPLE.
3/ We can then throw millions of dollars at the 'poor' making them a bit healthier and then more PRODUCTIVE for their exploiters.
4/ We can throw a lot of money at educating the 'poor' but what do we do about job creation for them ? and by 'them' I mean the 10.95 MILLION each year who, now that we are feeding and educating them, are no longer dying. Rather they are now producing MORE children.

OR.... we can invade them ourselves and 'fix' it. (DO for others etc.... wouldn't you want a well meaning country to get rid of your oppressors and liberate you?)

OR.... we can beg TEAM AMERICA to go an fix their countries so we then have someone to further blame for all the worlds problems.

OR... We can have 'world socialism'? hah! what a joke.
OR... the UN will help ? *cough*

David,
With respect did you ever stop to think that perhaps it is you who is in error in this matter. The Rev Tim Costello has worked hard and long for his cause and a little respect is appropriate.

gw,
Sorry. I did not explain that point very well. I was referring to people on low nutrition. Womwn on low nutrition do not ovulate as much as women on high nutrition. There was a belief that women who breast fed babies would not get prgnant while doing so. That belief went by the board when our nutrition improved.

Ask any cattle breeder and he will tell you that if he wants a cow to produce and rear a calf per year, then she has to be well fed. Humans are not that much different to other animals in this aspect.

So basicly what I said is correct when talking about people on low nutrition. Better feeding only compounds the issue when over population is the problem.

No poverty relief program will succeed unless we also deal with our own imminent poverty. The world marketplace is about to be shattered by peak oil. Watch SBS this Tuesday night at 8:30, they are screening a documentary called "Crude Impact" which will be in 2 parts before and after their evening news.

Following this at about 10:30 will be a French documentary/drama called "2013: Oil no more".

Basically, I have been studying this for nearly 3 years now, have corresponded with and met some of the leading geologists and writers in this field, and am convinced that we are about to see worldwide oil production plummet after about 2010.

That will set of a very nasty chain of events that will eventually plunge us into the Greater Depression. And it all starts when the stock-market wakes up to the fact that we cannot get the remaining oil out fast enough to meet daily demand, and we head into a bidding war for the remaining oil.

Stock-market crash does not really describe the event that could kick in some time in the next few years.

That the efforts of welfare agencies and charities will be thwarted on the way will just be one nasty side effect of the unimaginable decade coming our way.

Gee, I wish I could earn $178,287 p.a. plus $15,817 in superannuation for telling one lot of people how another lot of people are starving.

Institutionalized "charities" these days are businesses, employing managers and staff - 400 of them, in Tim Costello's case.

They all have their marketing departments, dedicated to finding smarter ways to separate the punter from his cash. Almost all of them use some form of universal guilt as their means of coercion. Their targets are the lower and middle classes, who have a "personal" guilt that however relatively poor they are here, they are rich relative to the poor elsewhere.

The rich simply set up a charitable trust, and pay someone to run it.

I am not suggesting that Mr Costello does not "earn" his $200,000 package, at least in the conventional sense of going into work every day and putting in some hards yards at the word processor. But it does leave a sour taste that an organization that rails at the iniquities of capitalism at the drop of a hat, turns out to be an utterly standard capitalist operation itself.

It is sometimes necessary to ask again the main two questions: why is it my problem, and what actions will resolve it?

Let's assume that we bypass logic on the first one, and simply accept the emotional response that yes, I am my brother's keeper.

That leaves what, exactly, can be done?

Money, unless it is earned, is the single most corrupting influence available. The only solution, unpalatable as it is to Mr Costello (Tim, that is) is to find ways to increase the volume and ease of trade between rich and poor countries. This exercise is far more challenging, but far more effective, than telling ordinary people that their concerns are as naught compared to those of some guy in Africa.

And certainly a more worthy occupation for a business with $200m revenues.

Perpetuating the cargo-cult of hand-outs may provide wonderful feel-good balm to the guilty middle-class soul, but it hides or defers the need for solid trade-based solutions.

"The only solution, unpalatable as it is to Mr Costello (Tim, that is) is to find ways to increase the volume and ease of trade between rich and poor countries. This exercise is far more challenging, but far more effective, than telling ordinary people that their concerns are as naught compared to those of some guy in Africa."

Yeah, that's going to happen in a world with less transport fuel!
Watch "Crude Impact" SBS Tuesday night 8:30 Pericles.

As a matter of fact, record it, and then watch the chapter on "peak oil" about 5 times so that you know the statistics. Then when you are up to date, we can have a real discussion.

Pericles, great points! I once heard what the CEO of the Red Cross
in Aus earned. Thats the last time I gave them a cent.

Fact is, its the poorest who have the most starving babies.
The more boatloads of food that are sent, the more vaccines,
the more starving babies we have. If we are going to send
help, its time to send them good old family planning.

Well... its a rare day that Yabby Pericles and BD are on the same page but we sure are this time....

I never thought to enquire about TC's pay package, I just assumed that because WV is a nominally Christian organization remuneration would reflect that reality.

So, Pericles has hit the nail on the head.. with 1 seriously heavy blow.

Imparting 'guilt' to others is a good fund raising strategy.

After all, at $200k per year, how else could you do it ? You sure can't do it by the "Look at my great example" approach so ..whats left ? aah.. talk about 'poor so_and_so' and mention the 'injustice of poverty' etc.. make us all cringe at our luxury and abundance etc.

Maybe its time WV dropped the 'Christian' tag completely ?

Who knows, maybe Tim gives 90% of his huge salary to the organization? but isn't it better for the sake of public relations and image to be up front and say "I don't NEED such a salary, but the people we serve sure do, so I'll pass on the package and take hmm.. say $60,000" (which is considerable in this day and age.)

SHONGA.. mate.. respect ? bear in mind, this is a place where public figures and institutions are debated. I don't know Tim, I only know what is in the public arena and that is what I'm scrutinizing.

I find nothing to respect about a Christian being paid $200k to run a supposedly Christian Charity.

All we need now is for Tim to tell us how many poverty stricken children will be saved by us denying ourselves 1_big_mac a week.

PAULs view(1cor9)

3This is my defense to those who would examine me. 4Do we not have the right to eat and drink? 5Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife,[a] as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas ?
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.

'Feeding children' is somewhat of a simplistic diagnosis to the problems many of these countries are facing, but I can't go on to agree with Banjo that feeding children will only create more hungry children... The highest fertility rates remain in countries whom are enduring extreme poverty, but economic development is proportional to fertility rates, the higher the economic development then the need to have more children diminishes.

It comes down to the circumstances poor households are facing where to avert the risk of hunger in the future, families have more children because they are viewed as assets, rather than having lesser children where the parents are actually able invest in their future such as sending them to school.
Maybe it comes down to investing in families to move from subsistent agriculture to commercial farming which is the basis of a simple economy, as investing in extreme poverty is what's going to diminish the need for families to have more children

The analogy of comparing cattle fertility to poverty is much to simplistic of an argument...

every plant and animal species on this planet expands to fill as much space as possible. humans are no different.

expanding population and finite, decreasing, resources ensures that poverty is here to stay, unless humanity starts ordering it's affairs with planning and scientific analysis of the place we all live.

only the people's republic of china has made a serious attempt at this, and the world's other societies decried the chinese effort. i suspect capitalism doesn't work in a world with visibly limited resources, so ceos and directors demand rising populations. china was not only communist, they were trying for a steady-state society. no wonder this 'one-child policy' prompted horror at the limitation of human rights: the right of shareholders was threatened.

we aren't suddenly going to plan our societies, we aren't going to provide education and work for every citizen, because too many are determined to do better, much better, than that.

in the end, the death of all those african children is a good thing: they won't grow up to have more starving children. if 90% of africa dies, there'll be enough land for the survivors. if 50% of australia dies, there'll be enough water for the survivors.

there's too many people. either plan to reduce population humanely, or be prepared for mother nature to do it rudely.

But Demos, your referring to a continent that has one of the richest allocation of resources in the world. The proportion of the African population is small compared to the vast amount of land the continent encompasses and to accept that social Darwinism needs to play its part is a needless proposition, and was discredited a long time ago...

A concerted global effort to eliminate poverty or more so pull developing countries out of the 'poverty trap' is in the global communities best interest, as it encourages sustainability rather than the view that real life is a competition and struggle, of "nature red in tooth and claw", and that these people should be left to suffer.

This topic was discussed by a past OLO author Eric Claus, "Reduce Poverty & Sustainability Will Follow"

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3771

"as investing in extreme poverty is what's going to diminish the need for families to have more children"

Peachy, I think that you'll find that in much of the poorest areas,
they also don't have family planning. So kids just kind of come along
when they do, some survive some don't.

The link between poverty and lack of family planning is well documented.

http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2002/english/ch1/index.htm

You need to go beyond the first couple of pages, its quite a detailed
report.

Look how well microcredit works, when you empower women to help
themselves. Family planning is the same. It empowers women to
plan their families and help themselves. Without it, what you
get is more starving babies, its a never ending cycle. More food,
more vaccines, means more babies, etc. etc. Its not the solution.

Peachy,
The "Fertility Rate" so often quoted is not an actual measure of womens fertility, it is a count of how many babies she produces. Women in developed ountries, that are well nourished, are actually more fertile. The reason they produce less babies is because of birth control.

In the countries where people are starving birth control is not practised and when a woman becomes pregnant again depends on the nutrition she receives. When her bodily reserves are sufficiently built up she will then ovulate and then become pregnant again. This is common to all or most warm blooded animals. Even the animals that only mate at a certain time of year, if the females reserves are low she does not ovulate and therefore not get pregnant that season.

Ensuring people are well fed is not the long term answer, as it compounds the problem. Population control by one means or another is the only solution. The problem will persist if the country cannot sustain the number of people and cannot afford to buy in food.

Whatever the strategy for achieving sustainability in Africa it has to deal with:-
1. The problem of exponential growth of the human population, and manage this in a way that will be humane and sustainable.
2. Allow for "smart growth" in their standard of living by encouraging New Urbanism, not our car dependent mode of living
3. Not be dependent "too much" on us, because Australia is about to be bankrupted.

Is ANYBODY going to watch "Crude Impact" on Tuesday's SBS movie slot, 8:30 to about 10:30? (With an intermission for the news.) Then try "2013: Oil no more" at 10:30.

WORLD VISION OR EXECUTIVE UTOPIA ?

From the World vision Annual report of 2006 we find the exact figures pericles stated.

In an interview with the 7.30 report we have this: (transcript)
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s139045.htm

TITLE "Controversy over Church charity heads Salary"

KERRY O'BRIEN
Melbourne's Wesley Central Mission today vowed to review the salary package of its controversial superintendent, Reverend Tim Langley, after it was revealed he was earning $160,000 a year, as well as living in a luxury apartment supplied by the Uniting Church.

REV TIM COSTELLO, BAPTIST MINISTER: Look, I was shocked and I think most clergy in the church are dumbstruck. When you have a religious calling, you understand it's about sacrifice and service. You're not in it to make money.

Yet now Tim is being paid MORE than this bloke.

All I can say is hang on a minute old son, doesn't this look a bit odd ?
Sure... Tim SLASHED 'car parking privileges' and 'no more business class travel' for world vision execs,..but... well..hmmm.. "I'm shocked and dumbstruck"

Revenue for WV was down in 2006 by 14% compared to 2005.

BIG 'Christianity' is just as bad as 'BIG' anything. Lets keep to the upper rooms, the lounge rooms, and try to stay in touch with our Lords model.
It seems the roots of World Vision, have been blurred with time. So, it it wants to run a secular show, buy secular bosses, not long time critics of wealth and privilege who happen to be Pastors.

REV TIM COSTELLO: "To be on a salary that is practising and preaching social justice, as the Wesley Mission is, that's that high, is not living consequentially with your own value"

I report....you decide.

Critical Solutions a Basic Socio-Economic and Cultural Need!

Imagine as Tim says, "what would happen if we invested even part of the defence budget in aid and development instead"

And, what would happen if our defence force joined us (civilians) to face some civic alternatives.

Imagine - IF;

a) We invested more into water and sanitation initiatives and new forms of practical technologies.

b) We did more to distribute more anti-malarial bed nets to malaria regions and anti-retroviral medicines to the millions of HIV-positive people who will otherwise die.

c) We decided to desire diversity through Peace by attending to these kind of Sustainable Development Goals.

d) We realised our need to build community safe objectives as a "Collective Security" - through social, economic, cultural and political action.

I strongly agree that we have "unprecedented opportunity to end world poverty".

This is entirely about our own knowledge and the value of our own humanity.

We must want to Make History of Poverty.

Our failure to act would be the absolute moral failure of a intelligent and prosperous nation.

http://www.miacat.com/
.

here is a wee thought

there are millionaires, and billionaires in EVERY country
and major capital cities of every country

perhaps they should pay tax

JHH

Yes, instead of a taxation system designed to create loopholes that the mega-rich can exploit to pay no tax!

Don't forget, no plan for the 3rd world will work unless it deals with the imminent bankruptcy of the first world. "Crude Impact" 8:30 Tuesday night, SBS.

Hi All
Its not often I go into a thread and see out standing straight forth comment.
This thread is a rare treat. David ou last post was very enjoyable to read and well put.
Like wise Yabbys comments directly above.
I thought You might Like this joke someone sent below.

A man and his wife went on vacation to Jerusalem.
While they were there, the wife passed away.
The undertaker told the husband, "You can have her shipped home for $5000, or you can bury her here, in the Holy Land, for $150."
The man thought about it and told him he would have her shipped home.

The undertaker asked," Why would you spend $5000 to ship your wife home, when it would be wonderful to be buried here and you would spend only $150?"
The man replied," Long ago a man died here, was buried here, and three days later he rose from the dead. I can`t take that risk."

Spare me Tim;given the self evident lack of understanding of the causes of poverty whatever you earn is too much.
What do you think is causing poverty in Zimbabwe,lack of rain or a mad dictator?
What do you think is causing poverty in Brazil and India,lack of resources or inadequate distribution of wealth fostered by poor social infrastructure,underpinned and bolstered by corruption?What is causing poverty in West Papua,the terrain or the TNI?
What is causing the growth in poverty in Australia?
By all means engage in emergency assistance,for that is what you do, but why don't you also seek to bring pressure on the causes of poverty and engage in the process of seeking long term solutions.
That of course might make you unpopular with the big emergency relief donors and the government but that is the price you might need to pay for genuinely fighting for people.I would like to think you had the guts but to date I have seen little evidence.
Bruce Haigh.

Thanx PAIF.. yes, not a bad one. Bruce, true also mate.

The simple fact is:

1/ Without changing the unjust political structures which drive the poverty, it will not be fixed.
2/ Seeking to change the unjust political structures will bring the do-gooder in DIRECT CONFLICT with the armies of those countries.

CONCLUSION. Waxing eloquent about 'Ending poverty is within our grasp' can ONLY be interpreted as good PR and fund-raising spin!

3/ On 200k per year, it is beyond hypocritical to even MENTION poverty to the rest of us. (I've been living with a disfunctional fridge for the past few years, swapping 2 litre containers of ice from the freezer section to the main section to keep stuff cold) I'm not jealous of Tims Salary, and I don't want sympathy for my own situation (I've known the 'abundance' of the palace and the lack of the desert...its all good) I'm simply making a point.

When I served with a major evangelical mission organization for 10 yrs, we had a more biblical approach.

WORLD VISION 400 employees. MISSION X 950 "Employees"

WORLD VISION CEO SALARY $200K Per year.
NORMAL EMPLOYEE SALARY $30K (or in that region)

MISSION X "CEO" (we call him General Director) salary $30,000/yr (or there abouts) access to a car, NO retirement or super whatsoever.
MISSION X "Employee" salary $30,000/yr

In reality, our 'salary' was basic rent/food and a small amount called 'personal' which amounted to about $10/week. The GD did not receive any more than us, yet he is responsible for over DOUBLE the "Employees" of WV.
Because our allowance was dependant on the free will gifts of supporters, and sometimes support did not come, our personal allowance went down to pretty close to zero. If we were blessed with extra giving in the next quarter, they tried to top up the previous lack.

Tim might have 'prayed about' joining world vision, but I think he turned a deaf ear to "But you should do something about that exhorbitant salary" whcn he heard the 'Go my son, and do that which seems good to you"

David.
Its PALE- [not palif]. Thats just a women who keeps mucking around because she doesnt have anything better to do.
PALE Stands For People Against Live Exports.
Finally we understand you in this thread. You not another Religious nutter you simply beleive in God.
Likewise. You have given something of yourself that you have held back before in you threads.
Great Stuff. Pardon but Tim Costello? Related? or not?

Hi PALE.. no, no relation to Tim. I can be pretty "nutty" also at times :) Just ask Keith, CJ Morgan and Pericles.

My nuttiness is in my faith in Christ Jesus. As Paul said "22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles" (1Cor1:22)

Thats the problem, Salvation in Christ is not seen as something 'sain' by some, but I am like Paul, I cannot deny the events of the Cross, nor their impact on myself and others.
I suppose Paul may have wished at times that he did not receive a visitation from the Lord on the road to Damascus, specially when the rocks were being hurled at him at Lystra and he was left for dead. But so goes the course of living for Christ at times.

This call to end poverty is foolishness to me. Not because it is ignoble in intent, but misguided in its platform. I know the pressure of 'big' organizations to shift from purely faith based support raising to "faith PLUS". But once that line is crossed, its hard to turn back.

I recall how some elements of the Indonesian Church used to publish exactly how much support was given by specific individuals by name. This immediately pandered to the human pride and 'good works' idea, and was exactly what Jesus preached against "Do not let your left hand know what your right is doing" (in connection with giving) "Don't be like the hypocrites who love the praises of men" etc..

The answer to poverty is not in raking in huge donations to NGO organizations with high flying highly paid CEO's, but it the restructuring of our whole community along lines demonstrated by and outlined by Jesus, but not in a legalistic way.

Hi David Boaz,

I'm also a Christian, and yet accept the separation of the church and state. Did you make it to the CASE Lectures at NSW "New College" last year? (Or was that 2005? How the time flies.)

Basically John Anderson, Kevin Rudd and theologian Andrew Cameron of Moore College spoke on the biblical imperatives for the separation of church and state. Initially it is a Christian idea, and comes back to the Apostle's focus on gospel work while they set up "deacons" to deal with practical matters, and then more importantly also stems from the fact that the whole basis of Christianity — salvation by faith not works — shows that we rebel against "the law". (As in God's law). No amount of blurring of the separation of church and state and trying to impose a "Christian society" is going to deal with the fact that human hearts can only be changed by God. It's the human heart that is the main problem.

If society were more "Christian" it would still need to prioritize goods and services somehow, and would still have economic and taxation questions to sort out... indeed, it would still need to make certain questions that are either "left" or "right" wing. So, we would still come back to a question of economic priorities in an election year.

And all of this STILL ignores the very practical realities that nothing we do can reduce poverty in other nations unless the ENTIRE western world comes up for a plan for dealing with our own imminent bankruptcy, so will you please watch SBS tomorrow night 8:30? I'm not spamming, I'm sincerely asking for your feedback on "Crude Impact" showing tomorrow night.

It is time I offered an apology to Tim Costello.

It was not my intention to let loose the dogs of evangelical Christianity so that they could indulge in a frenzy of personal criticism of your motivation or your commitment to your religion.

I simply wanted to point out that charity should not be institutionalized, specifically to avoid being pilloried in this fashion.

I am very aware of the arguments. Some very close friends of mine are highly active in various charitable enterprises, and - probably not by coincidence - they are all serious Christians. They tell me that some form of formal organization is essential in order to "maximize" the inbound funds and to "optimize" the efficiency of the distribution channel.

No doubt.

However, one of them has devoted the next two years of his life to the distribution side of the equation. He has shifted his entire family (three kids under ten) to Asia, having volunteered to apply his skills to the challenge of redistributing "tangibles", that is, non-monetary contributions ranging from building materials to computers.

He will not be paid for his efforts, but he will be housed and fed, and his kids will get to a local school. He describes it as a "once in a lifetime opportunity", where most of us would see nothing but the discomfort of disruption, and the entire absence of luxury.

The entire organization exists in this way. There are no Chief Executives. No marketing teams. No salaried staff at all, in fact.

That's charity.

Another belongs to a (Christian) group that provides micro-credits to poor villages, building a local micro-economy in order eventually to become part of the larger economy. None of the organizers is paid. They have made enough in their conventional work to take time off to do what it takes, head off to a remote African village to build a dam, set up a loom or whatever, or just work in the back office.

So, sorry Tim, it wasn't meant to be a swipe at you personally.

But your organization is a business, not a charity.

Eclipse now,
11 years of conservatism has really cost this great nation in many ways, bring on a new progressive government to tackle the real problems we face.

Agreed Shonga

I think many people on this thread need to read Bruce Haighs post as it looks at the causes of povety. Some hard questions need to be answered. Do we invade Zimbabwe and topple Margarbe because he is responsible for the povety there. After all it was quite prosperous before he took over. What action do we take about other nations where poverty is rife because of corruption or bad governance. Do we set up more childrens shelters here to take more children from the familys that are disfunctional.

Where a countries overpopulation is the problem do we insist on a one child policy tied to aid, with sterilization after the first born or introduce compulsory birth control by long term injection.

Sooner or later action has to be taken about population control.

Shonga and Eclipse. I am no fan of either major party here but am interested in just how a progressive party would fix world povety. Last time they were in power they threw money at the aboriginal community and that did not fix their problems.

It is easy to theorize about these things but what about some prcatical ideas?

The aboriginal people didnt get the money because a few at the top did their own thing. We should not have treated them any different to the rest of Australians. Somebody should have known they could not manage the money and at least kept tabs on it. We should fix our own aboriginal folk before sending aid to other countries.
Yes to the one child policy- even no child policy if they cant afford a child.
Some tough moves need to be made.
I am sick of the Cathlics telling people that its a sin to have an abortion. We should send a team of people to these countries to provide these sercives and they should be made to take something before they are given anything to stop more kids being born they cant feed. Its criminal and irresposible.
Your comments are stop on
Well at least your thread will spring to live with the pro rights cases.
Really however who was that poular Prime Minister many years ago who warned us about giving aid.
He had the force of the church turn on him but by god Wasnt he right!

Eclipse.. points taken...and agreed mate.PTL.

Pericles, given that I'm apparently the only major critic of Tims salary after your timely post quantifiying it, I assume you are calling me an 'evangelical dog' ?
While you are in 'name calling/changing' mode, I notice also you now declare World Vision a 'business' and not a charity ? Why so ? Could it be that this gives you yet another quasi legitimate opportunity to simply criticize me ?

The facts remain.

1/ Tim made public statements of being "shocked and stunned" when informed about a $160k salary of a CEO of a Uniting Church charity.
2/ Tim is now being paid MORE than that person.
3/ Tim is calling on us to give give give so we can end poverty.

For one who has publically, and as a high profile Christian accepted such a salary is downright dangerous and damaging to his credibility and I cannot see how such a situation will contribute to the growth of donations to WV. 2006 Income was 14% down on 2005.

There is no use you 'declaring' that WV is now a 'business' because
a) It is not, it is a charity.
b) It was founded as a Christian organization and some of my own Bible college peers have had senior positions in it. (b4 the corporate salary stuff)
c) There were (I don't know about now) daily devotions with Staff.

Tim carries the title 'Reverend' and is an ordained minister. Christ taught us to pray for our 'daily' bread, not our tomorrows, simple living is the Biblical hallmark of the Christian.

You don't need $200k to lead an organization of 400, I pointed out we had 950 personel in many countries and the 'ceo' (General Director) received the same as the lowliest missionary.

The Bible says "Stir one another up to good works" and that is what I'm doing. It grieves me that this will simply become one more reason for 'the Church' to be criticized as hypocritical.

I guess it depends what comes with that salary... was Tim a "big name" that they were buying to lend credibility to their charity cause in an era of charity fatigue?

Remember that as more and more charities and causes have gone up, and life has become increasingly manic and desperately busy, people just don't have time for the 50 thousand charity people trying to spruik their cause in the mall. Aussies are sick of it.

Back when we had the red cross and salvos to deal with a few times a year it was a bunch easier, and people seemed to be more generous. Now it seems that people are just sick and tired of being harassed as they try to go about their business.

(PS: Reminder: SBS 8:30 tonight — why we are heading into the next Greater Depression by about 2012... a few years after the oil crisis hits.)

If the cap fits, Boaz...

>>given that I'm apparently the only major critic of Tims salary after your timely post quantifiying it, I assume you are calling me an 'evangelical dog'<<

The exact phrase was "let loose the dogs of evangelical Christianity", so it was a little more metaphorical ("cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war" Shakespeare: Julius Caesar) than purely canine.

Aren't you getting a touch paranoid, too?

>>I notice also you now declare World Vision a 'business' and not a charity? Why so? Could it be that this gives you yet another quasi legitimate opportunity to simply criticize me?<<

My first post made absolutely no observations on Tim's Christianity. It was you alone who decided that this aspect was offensive.

My point was entirely secular: World Vision is a business, pure and simple. Even their P&L statement clearly shows "cost of sale" separate from back-office administration, and I would imagine the entire organization is managed along the same lines as any other company that has 400 staff and $200m revenues.

Which is fair enough. But when its Chief Executive chooses to lecture me from his $200k p.a. comfort zone on the privations of living in third world countries, I feel that he has crossed a boundary.

I also think it is entirely reasonable for you to unearth further evidence indicating hypocrisy, as you have done. But it was your choice to add religion to the mix; hypocrisy exists outside religion too, you know.

It would be interesting to find out whether Tim Costello would prefer to defend his position on religious or secular grounds. I doubt he would attempt to do so here, of course, so we may never find out.

The difference is simple (to me, anyway).

I object to the leader of any charity wagging his finger at me to extract charity dollars from my pocket, while at the same time trousering a very fine remuneration, commensurate entirely with a business, but totally inappropriate to a "charity".

So Boaz, you can tuck away your paranoia until it is really needed.

Pericles - agree that bringing in The Great Christianity Debate again is a little tedious. However - you might like to check the provenance of your "Cry havoc!" quote. Shakespere it is. But Julius it most certainly isn't.

Pericles.

No I will call them dogs if you like.- suites me- and as someone said -if the cap fits.

Just wondering how you can be a animal lover and support the church in general.

Any idea how they can look public in the eye and say Gods creatures are nothing to do with them. Or How They Can Look The creatures in the eye for God Sake. Any idea why the no speaking - after they five seperate 60 Miniutes reports?

Any idea why no guidleness for their flock regarding animal welfare on Sunday services or Sunday Schools.?

Or perhaps you think its ok for Salvation Army Red Cross and a half a dozen others to collect money from the trusting public for farmers and not give one cent to animal dieing of Starvation.?

Oh But we are helping farmers they cry!. Well we are still farmers and we talk to many farmers and " Heres news" farmers need Feed water for Stock!
So why collect money for farmers when they understand NOTHING about farming!
I know how they do it legally of course- they blame Costelllo, poor chap- But what about morally?
They are a bloody discrace.
Hey Tim Costello I will let you in on a little secret. Unless we look after the earth and the animals it doesnt work.
You lot reckon the Lord never mentioned animals much .
Well ok but it sure is funny he is choosing our treatment of them to eventually wipe out our species.
Every Disease that is to come such as bird flue starts by the mistreament of Gods creatures. I like it. Almost as if God has a sense of humour really.
Hes even managed to ensure it travels from one end of the earth to the others. Thats class. Thats justice.
WE have turned our backs on suffering creatures that God put on this earth to share with us.

Pericles and team.
The point I'm pushing here is based on the following:

{Dr. Bob Pierce began World Vision to help children orphaned in the Korean War. .... and strategic Christian leadership activities.}

Notice the last sentence ? "Christian" leadership.

From the Same World Vision document:

{World Vision is a Christian relief and development organization dedicated to helping children and their communities worldwide reach their full potential by tackling the causes of poverty.}

What kind of relief organization is WV claiming to be ? that's right 'CHRISTIAN'.

Now..lets put those 2 things together.

1/ Christian.
2/ Leadership.

Now.. lets ask "What is the biblical pattern of 'Christian' leadersip"?

Mark 10:42 Jesus said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all."

John 13:4
so he (Jesus) got up from the meal, ...and began to wash his disciples' feet...

Based on it's foundation documents, WV is 'Christian' and to act in a secular way, corporatized, paying extremely high salaries to those in leadership does nothing to amplify the principles on which it was founded or exists today.

We have no basis to complain about criticism of "the Church" when the Church itself acts like the world does. When a pope has mistresses, we rightly condemn his behavior. When a Pastor raids the offering for a new sports car, he is also rightly condemned.

I thought the "boss" of a Christian organization is Christ ?

Perhaps World Vision should adopt a financial policy of 'Relief Fund' (where 100% of the donation is used for relief) and 'Admin Fund' (where salaries are taken from)and donors can choose which to give to. Then, they can simply pool the 'admin' fund and divide it among the workers. Thats how we did it, and sometimes the 'personal' was pretty meagre but at least we had clear conciences in regard to our supporters.

David Good One.

The thing is "we dont know" what Jesus Said David because "we were not there."
You cant expect the public to trust some Church bloke many years ago as to what took place. That doesnt wash well with the public in general.
Why dont we just start something new. Follow those old rules of yours. Call it something like.

The Gods Messages Organisation. Or do The Right Thing Church
God will make it work if you ask.

You wont ever change those people David. So there is no point trying.
Look at all the real estate purchased with donations for the needy .
stuff them
Nor will you stop suffering until to enforce birth control and give Animal Welfare a top prioity either.
By The way we have a reward fund we use each year to support a outstanding person.
Its often hard to pick a winner.
We think your posts over all carry the real true message.
So congradulations on first prize for this year. We need to arrange to deliver fridge if you could email address to.
www.livexports.com

Thanks Romany. It is annoying when a perfectly straightforward concept is hijacked into yet another diatribe from the evangelicals.

However, the quote was Mark Antony's, in his speech following Caesar's assassination that began "O pardon me thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle with these butchers".

Stirring stuff.

Thanks for the original "mission statement", Boaz, very illuminating

Given the original idea for World Vision was "World Vision is a Christian relief and development organization dedicated to helping children and their communities worldwide reach their full potential by tackling the causes of poverty", how is this reflected in today's activities?

From last year's annual report we can see that nearly $50m went towards Tsunami relief. A perfectly respectable charitable allocation, but only by a semantical stretch could it be called "tackling the causes of poverty". Sure, the tsunami "caused" poverty, but I doubt that they would have allocated $50m to R&D on how to eliminate earthquakes.

On the other hand, it would have been a disastrous marketing gaffe if World Vision had refused to send money for tsunami relief. Their name would have been mud (sorry!) in the community, as people would not understand that their mission lay elsewhere, i.e. in the promotion of Christianity.

Donations (revenue) would have dried up, and the CEO fired for incompetence, just as in any business venture.

So they are doing exactly the right thing as a business. They just shouldn't call themselves a charity - and on this I totally agree with Boaz - because charities are staffed by volunteers, and have no "overheads" that involve employees, paid executive directors or other for-profit activities.

I am sure World Vision does good work. But it does so because it makes good business sense to do so.

Dear PALE..... thanx for the kind offer. Actually, I think my fridge is fixable when I tire of swapping ice bottles, the seal is the problem, and I've found a source for a spare. I'm sure your generosity would be more useful with those with more need than me.

I'm in the process of developing some Solar based pumping equipment. I hope to make this available to NGO's in due course. There are some devices around, but they seem to lack a particular piece of technology which is available separately (and at great cost).
I'm going to incorporate that technology into a single pumping controller unit.
Who knows, maybe WV might buy some :)
blessings.

David
Its a prize, so I will tell the girls and guys you have re donated it back to pale RSPCA QLD thanks.
You know where to find us.
I am extremely interested in your sola plants. Please keep me informed and let us know how things move along.
I hope you realise there is funding available. If you need any assistance to tap into it [when u want email me.
The aboriginal people could certainly use something like that.Speaking of aboriginal people in Australia they still are the ones we should be helping first.
All these good Aussies talking about WV seem to have TV tunnel vishion.
Now if you will pardon me David I will address Miss P.

P, Highjack nothing. If you cant see the connection between the enviroment- animals- and the way we treat both' and manage them its not my fault.
The Two are very much connected.

I agree with Banjo and a few of the others.

We should not be feeding more of the starving.

We should instead be taking care of our own aboriginal people first.

Then we should be assisting with birth control- education- water.

AS WV basically dont beleive in terminations then i guess the clue is in the water.

Suffering of people and Animals are NO different.

They are All Gods creatures P.

By The way Yes I did think China handled what could have been a disaster well`.

Maybe they should take over from TC.
Please everybody just stop to think about the fact if you feed the starving they in turn breed again.
The world is already over populated.
Birth Control is your answer. If there is a conflict of interest to give that then step aside and let others do it.
Sit down at a table and make some real choices because the answer to staring kids is clear.
Then again I guess if WV fix the problem they may be out of a well paid job
The Lord would be horrified at their pay packets- That for sure.

David

This is for you.

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/

PS By The way I do not agree with your anzac post?"

I will leave you to solve the worlds starving people problem.

Give you a hint.

More people is not the answer.

Dear PALE ..glad to know the prize can be still used... Great!

-I'm not suggesting more people... I'm suggesting breed our own rather than importing them.
-Regarding 'changing' people.. new people come to OLO each day :)
-What Jesus said ? Long debate, but not as simple as you suggest simply because we were not there.
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm
A study of the Islamic oral tradition (Hadith) is quite helpful in this matter.

On the Anzac post, please...if you disagree, by all means give reasons, I'm open to criticism at any time. I'm fully supportive of Anzac day .. just in case you gained the impression I'm not. Read the fine print :)

WHO ARE THE RICH ? is the 'uberTitle' of this piece, and would have to say as follows:

CEO's of all Major Banks.
CEO of World Vision (currently Tim Costello)
CEO's of all major corporations.
The Prime Minister, Treasurer, and Senior cabinet members.

So, I hope I never hear the CEO of WV calling for 'give to the needy' as long as the running sore of $200,000 per year exists.

A question did arise in our bible study as we discussed this, and it was this "Is he expected to fund his own travel"... I suggest 'no' because he himself cut back from 'Business Class' to economy, clearly showing it is an operating expense.

Dr Hudson Taylor, founder of the China Inland Mission once said "God's work, done in Gods way, will never lack God's provision".

C.T. STUDD served in the C.I.M. and then founded the Africa Inland Mission said:

Christ's call is to save the lost, not the stiff-necked; He came not to call scoffers but sinners to repentance; not to build and furnish comfortable chapels, churches, and cathedrals at home in which to rock Christian professors to sleep by means of clever essays, stereotyped prayers, and artistic musical performances, but to capture men from the devil's clutches and the very jaws of Hell. This can be accomplished only by a red-hot, unconventional, unfettered devotion, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to the Lord Jesus Christ

Tim......?