Goodthief, I have no intention of deconverting the converted. When someone is deluded, the change process must start from the inside. My motivation for posting here and on other Christain or religious sites is to do my bit to ensure a counterview is present to try and prevent others from buying in to the delusion.

So I am not attacking a Christian's faith I am attacking the faith of Christianity. And yes it is important because there is a group of people out there, the Christian Right, who are using this faith as a basis to buy into the secular political process. It is they who have made your faith a legitimate political target.

If Christians and other religious groups simply went to church on Sunday then there would be no problem. I can see how some individuals actually get a great deal of joy in living a deluded life. But when these people, particularly Christians and Moslems, attempt to have their infantile beliefs thrust upon the rest of society then its time for people to take a stand.

Thanks Shanno, that's pretty clear. I think I understand how you feel about the Xian Right and aggressive evangelism: many Xians like me feel the same, except we also feel embarrassed by our troubled and conspicuous siblings. Then, we find that we are collateral damage when critics like you attack all of us. Why not critique their behaviour? Xians like me critique the Xian Right all the time: there is a constant debate. EG Tim Costello taking a shot at Hillsong. We do this as a necessary matter of house-cleaning (frankly, we do it for Jesus' sake). Then, having failed to watch our back, we get a rocket from behind from people outside bombarding all of us indiscriminately. Ah, c'est la guerre!

I know you think we're deluded. If you're an atheist, you have to think this, don't you? But why bother saying so? It just insults and irritates. Naturally, I don't see myself as deluded at all. Even if I were, telling me so, without reasons I am able to address, doesn't enlighten me. And repetition makes no difference.

Why do we have to agree with you?

Pax,

Shanno - my thoughts exactly and I would add that our christian citizens need to understand that if they stand in judgement of other religions and cultures, then they will be judged.

good thief, the list of cross's you have to carry, almost reduced me to tears; indeed the lamb like bleeting of your troubles had the all the consistency of the spiritual syrup served up at a Hillview singalong. Another bleeting paranoid christian clown; you and others like you, remind me that the universal designer does have a sense of humor.

I'm a bit disappointd with your fellow christian clowns; they don't adhere to the business of turning the other cheek - could you talk to them about that? Otherwise you are most welcome to join the orchestra of bleeting sheep.

Goodthief, that was a really neat response and I thank you for it but lets try to make things even clearer…

You say that you don't approve of the Xtian Right - but the problem you need to understand is that the Xtian right are using your belief to try to push through their agenda. In other words you are a part owner of their weapon of mass destruction. How do I attack their weaponry without hurting you? Frankly the problem is all yours. The fact that you have failed to bring your brethren into line is sad but let's face it you've had a couple of thousand years to get your house in order.

I do have an idea however - why don't you get all your moderate Xtian colleagues to put out, say, a 'Put Family First last' leaflet at the next Federal election. That'll certainly get people like me thinking maybe we got you wrong.

Of course you won't so I'm afraid you're going to have to put up with our attacks. But at least our attacks are only words unlike… well I'm sure I don't need to fill in the gaps.

To Shanno and Netab. This thread is taking an interesting turn here.

What “is” the ‘Christian Right’ ?
Any Christianity affiliated person standing for political office in a democracy ?
Do you blokes have any problem with people saying “Here I am, I am a Christian, I stand for this and that value, I offer myself as a candidate for this election, to represent you in our government and to seek to advance these values (list provided)”

When a secular person, or an atheist or a Green stands for office, are you suggesting they are not standing for specific values which might be just as abhorrent to Christians (or Muslims or Hindus) as ‘Christian’ values are to themselves ?

There always seems to be a very one sided spin on this ‘Christians in politics’ thing. If ur Christian, then you are ‘IMPOSING’ your religion on others. If you are ‘athestis’ you are ‘representing freedom and liberty’ ? :) come come.. none of us were born yesterday, nor were we behind the bushes when brains were handed out. We can spot a croc a mile off.

If Christians were saying “The Law of Moses MUST be our basis of law and we intend to enforce it LIKE IT OR NOT” then... I would agree you have legitimate grounds for serious protest. This is the approach taken by Abu Izzadeen the radical sheikh in the UK (recently arrested) who said “Islam is going to take over UK whether you like it or not”.

My response to Mamdu Habib standing as an independant and Hilali’s rants about forming a “Muslim” party is to ramp up my own activism and counter this with solid argument in as many forums as I can.(along with public physical protest presence) Ur welcome to join me at the ‘Islamic Information and Support Centre in 19 Michael Street Brunswick and we can both cry out against ‘religious intolerance’ :) (better wear your protective cup though, never know what might happen) Then we can goto TradesHall and cry out against corruption and greed in the Union movement. (protective vest,headgear&SelfDefense_training supplied:)

David,
You remain a disappointment, despite my efforts to correct your ways and lead you to revelation. However, your bleeting indicates to me that you do have a desire for public forum martyrdom whereas, the latest lambs to join the flock, have a bleeting noise that sounds like a neoconservative line dance on a floor of nails. They hold forth with a syrupy sense of their own righteousness with little bleets of reason to support their ridiculous rhetoric - David, they need to be reminded that they are here to suffer for their faith and the pagan congregeration is getting bored with its lack of divine work.

You know exactly where I come from and I'm not wasting my time or yours reiterating it for the fourth time on this thread!

As for the relationship between me and others on this thread who are critical of the bleeting noises coming from the neoconservative, righteous religious right flock; I wouldn't have a clue who they are except that we share a concern about the intolerance being preached and translated into the political arena and ultimately effecting our lives. This US evangelistic drivel that seeks to introduce its dark age theories of universal design into schools and uses fear to mesmerise its adherents, will not be coming here and i think quite a few on this thread share this determination.