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The Forum > Article Comments > One body - many opinions > Comments

One body - many opinions : Comments

By Danny Lamm, published 19/3/2007

The State Zionist Council of Victoria provides platforms for a range of voices to reflect the diversity of its constituency.

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A university degree yet you think Taiwan was part of Japan. The Japanese thought that for a while too. Did they tutor you?

What sort of degree allows you to think it logical to equate a liberating occupation with an oppressive occupation.

What sort of degree allows you to mouth off stupidities. Circumstances, decency and good intention allowed democracy and freedom to be installled and flourish in both Germany and Japan within ten years. Yet you claim that is somehow equivalent to an indecent, land grabbing, oppressive military occupation of forty years that supresses expressions of democracy.

What sort of degree allows you to logically argue the annexation of Palestinian land by building a wall around parts of it somehow equates to 'Israel .... (building) a wall AROUND ITSELF'.

Those really display the unique logic of logic.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 7:35:30 AM
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keith

Taiwan was first annexed by China and then occupied by Japan and more recently by a Chinese army. They did not spend their time seeking revenge but moved on to become a major manufacturer and achieve a high standard of living. The Palestinians were offered the same but chose to continue a Jihad against Israel even though that country was providing refuge for large numbers of Jews, Christians and Druze from other Arab countries. Many of the Israeli Arabs including Muslims prefer to be in Israel rather than in Palestine and some join the Israeli army.

I supply two links but you have either swallowed whole the Muslim hate propaganda or are to blind to see.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2534#Israeli_Arabs

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_mamareem2007.asx
Posted by logic, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 8:23:13 AM
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Keith

I mentioned God's promises to Israel, AND the 'Islmic concept of Waqf' as BOTH being part of, or the major barrier to resolving the problem to_your_satisfaction.

Its not that I 'want' the situation to be resolved in terms of the borders established by Yahweh (if they were it would include all land to the Euphrates mate)

No.. I'm saying 'this is the problem' there are 2 competing theological views at work. The Islamic and the Zionist/Orthodox.

Personally, I dont' believe anything we do will change the course of salvation history and Gods providential dealings with Israel, except for one. -The acceptance of Christ as Messiah by all sides.

So, for the record the 'Christian' (or as you put it 'fundy religious nutter' :) approach is to point all parties to Christ as Saviour and Lord. At the same time, there are ELEMENTS of the Christian community/body, which have a particular eschatological/(last days) view of things which causes them to support Israel in practical ways as well as morally.

Whether they do or don't I feel it will make no difference in the long run, though I concede if you look at this problem from a purely secular viewpoint, such assistance could be seen as unhelpful.

Your view of '67 borders' is just that.. 'your view' its one of a number of competing views. I suggest that in the real world, the only thing which will bring ANY view to fruition is power. Even if they mangaged to negotiate an outcome as you prefer, there would be the hard core Hamas-ites who would bitterly resent ANY Israelite presence in an "Islamic land", and they would feed their miserable hearts with all the Islamic traditions of the various battles Mohammad fought, with partICular emphasis on Khaybar where the last of the Jews were turfed out of the Arabian peninsula after all their lands and goods were thieved by the Muslims.
I remind you that one of the long range missiles of Hezbollah was named "Khaybar II" that chunk of history is VERY close to their modern minds.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:15:32 AM
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Daniel pipes offers only opinion and admits such himself in this article when he says in his first paragraph,

'No opinion surveys cover this delicate subject...'

He relies on mere anecdotal evidence and personal experience. And David Pipes is of course recognised as biased in his views. Doubting Daniel Pipes 'facts' tends to indicate I haven't a problem with swallowing propaganda. It appears you've pointed your finger regarding swallowing propaganda at the wrong person. Look to yourself logic...do you believe Pipes biased opinions on this matter? I think you might as you've used him as an authority.

Palestinian Media Watch...really logic...do you think that website isn't a propaganda front? But you do have a point about the Palestinian media though. I agree they are definately biased, but I'd add they are definately as biased and discrinminatory as many of the official Israeli media outlets, the official policies of the Israeli Government and the oppressive activities of the Israeli Military Occupation machine in occupied Palestine.

Why don't you do as you advise me. Stop swallowing hate propaganda.
I rarely read websites or propaganda outlets. I do read publications such as the NY Times, Washington Post and the Guardian. I watch closely the unfolding of mid eastern events and as often as possible seek out sources that detail the records of leaders involved in those events. Then logic after a dispassionate thought process and from an independant stance ( I by the way am in no way of Middle Eastern heritage) I make up my own mind as to the probable unfolding of issues. I try never to put much weight in obviously biased reports or reporters. They've usually got some other agenda and are usually quite wrong.

Take my advice...read more widely, think for yourself and discount the propagandists, especially governments and their official spokespeople. And make sure you never quote them for they tend to destroy the argument one wants to promote.
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 12:16:05 PM
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Nice postings, Logic. To your list you could add the Samaritans. They also survived 1400 years of Islamic oppression, but chose not to leave the area, as many jews did. The new state of Israel has taken the remaining Samaritans in, after they had dwindled to around 200 people.
Of course, there are probably many peoples who did not survive the Muslim oppression - Jihad and Dhimmitude - which the Muslims would like to reimpose.
If Zionism means a democratic jewish state, this is a recipe for survival of the jewish people in their own land.
I've read elsewhere that the moderates within Hammas expect it to take 500 years to reconquer Israel. If Muslims have one thing, it's a long memory.
If Muslims can't take Israel militarily, they will take it demographically. This is the reason for their insistance on a right of return for those displaced in the creation of the state of Israel.
There are many more so-called Palistinians (Muslim by a very large majority, with a tiny christian number) than there are jews in Israel or jews prepared to put their lives at risk by moving into a war zone.
Muslims wish to re-impose dhimmitude upon their former subjects, the jews. This attempt at re-imposing oppression must be resisted.
Posted by camo, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 4:49:09 PM
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