Confession is actualy quite limited unless it is followed up by a change of action with the intention, however difficult, to do things differently.
Otherwise it is a device whereby people are let off the hook of the necessary ordeal of self responsibility.My favourite example of confession is this:
Fred confesses to the priest that he is obsessed with sexual thoughts and has been getting it off with some of the local girls. The priest asks him if it was with Betty, Sarah, Jane or Katherine.
Afterwards Fred's friends ask him if his confession helped at all.
Not really replied Fred but I did get some good leads.

I've always thought that confession was the most appaling cop-out - you can getway with murder (literally) as long as you say sorry afterwards. Thanks, but no. Mind you, what else would you expect from followers of the Imaginary Friend who think that it was somehow praiseworthy that the IM killed his child. Once you enter the realm of unreason, there is no end to the nonsense you can talk yourself into believing

'... we do not know that we are sinners and have to learn that we are.' Well, not in the rational world. People do good and bad things, and it is surely far better that the bad things don't happen in the first place than to tell people they can get away with any amount of stuff just by saying a few hail Marys. "Sorry Guv'nor - I couldn't help it, I'm just a misereble sinner".

And as for the suggestion that Blairs education reforms didn't work becaus they failed to line up all the schoolkids in Britain to say how wicked they were - what planet are we on here?

Note to editor - I just had my post blocked (temporarily) because I has 3 question marks at the end of the previous sentence, with the instruction that I had to remove them to continue. Just what sort of gramaticallly fascist software are you running?(?)(?) Ha! Just found a way around it! (!)(!)

"our only hope is to return to the Father."

And this is best done in the heart Father, not in the pew. True confession only occurs when there has been real insight and understanding around the so-called 'misdemeanour'. The problem with buying into 'church' confession is that it is an immediate acceptance of dogma. The church decides what is 'wrong'.

In relationships of course, the only thing that can be wrong is misunderstanding, disagreement and non-consensuality. When such matters are resolved at personally, between people, then they are not necessarily hurting others. Confession in such a scenario is not required - peace and absolute honesty exist between the people concerned and therefore equilibrium has been achieved - which at the heart of it, is what spiritual practice aims to achieve, isn't it - peace and harmony?

Dogmatism is often an obstacle to peace and harmony, and not an enabler. I admit, confession can bring real peace to some people: the overwhelming desire to share a genuine understanding of how we may have been a problem to others. But the encouragement of honesty between people, rather than the slightly 'seedy' aspect of the confessional, would be a clearer route to a more open and generally loving society.

Peter, I know what you mean. Most weeks at our local church we no longer use the full confession (… in thought, word and deed…) but a shorter, sanitised politically correct one (… for living life without you … forgive us Lord …). It’s deeply unsatisfying, and it changes the balance and rhythm of the service.

Confession is not about “getting away” with our wrongoings, as Candide suggested – we all must face the social consequences of what we’ve done, including jail time if necessary and appropriate. Rather, it’s but about coming to terms with them in a way which makes moving forward possible.

The sanctification of ‘self esteem’ in our culture is dangerous if it tells people they have a right not to feel bad about themselves, because it divorces them from both the emotional and the social consequences of their actions, and hence of the possibility of restoration/restitution or reconciliation.

Peter

You said
"Fortunately this movement is going the way of all fads but it is capable of producing a whole generation of unreflective sociopaths who will go through life feeling good about themselves regardless of the havoc they have caused in other people’s lives as they resolutely strive for their life goals."

Sounds a lot like the church to me. They are fading as we speak and judging by your tone, you and your church are getting on just fine in spite of the havoc the church has wrought over the past 2000 years.
What if the church is 'sinful'. And is the Anglican church's attitude to ordination of women not sinful (it is certainly unjust). Since it cannot confess its sin AND mend its ways... perhaps it should withdraw from the 'retaining and forgiving' of sins racket.
And as for the Uniting Church, it's attitude to ordination of gays puts it in exactly the same boat.

Can you really find God in all that grand complex of archaic and irrelevant symbols you call the Church?

Sociopaths? I thought you were talking about politicians.

"Introspection and confession of failure is anathema to this (self esteem) movement because it produces bad feelings resulting in a bad self image. In the absence of belief in confession and absolution what other choice is there?"

Well, rather than listen to self-help gurus you can take responsibility for your own actions. Self-esteem comes from within.

"I am always grateful for the prayers of confession and absolution in the Sunday Liturgy." - Sellick

If there is a God [who has "already"] died for Sin and that God is personal. Why do we the Church-based worship as an interlocator? The first century Jesus sects were household based. Presumably, the Church(es) leverage guilt to their advantage:

-- No clicks, please. Notes only.

The idea of Confessors goes to time of Christian persecutions by the Romans. Originally, Martyrs were prayed to. Later, some Christians whom had been tortured, lived and released, became "Confessors". Highly respected. But, the rub is, that political higher-ups in the Church did not like this behaviour and usurped the role. {source: Robin Lane Fox

Peter Sellers: "The Church is a gift of God established in the creation based on the truth that is Jesus Christ."

What on earth does that mean?

This author is almost a parody of theological self-indulgence. At least he isn't like to hateful like some others of his faith who post here, and those of other faiths that the godbotherers in this forum like to fantasise about in their posts.

I'm sure it all gives comfort to somebody, and at this level it seems harmless enough.

Oops - that was supposed to read "At least he isn't overtly hateful like some others of his faith who post here..."

Peter
When did Jesus found his Church?
Jesus lived and died a Jew. He was buried according to Jewish custom by his friends. Apart from the M16 quote, which sounds like a handy self-serving interpolation, there is no mention anywhere in the Gospels that Jesus intended to found a Church.

20

Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!

Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.

Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.

I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.

Peter Sellick I don't agree with everything but overall another well-thought out and sensible piece of writing.

You say:
"In the absence of belief in confession and absolution what other choice is there? As the father in the film Little Miss Sunshine says, ‘Never apologise, it is a sign of weakness’. Fortunately this movement is going the way of all fads but it is capable of producing a whole generation of unreflective sociopaths who will go through life feeling good about themselves regardless of the havoc they have caused in other people’s lives as they resolutely strive for their life goals." This comment on the "self-esteem movement" is well said Peter Sellick of certain sections of this "movement" but is too much of a generalisation to be credible.

I think that some modern day thinking is just the old Christian-like thinking renewed without all the church and religious carry on. Self reflection and seeking counsel on problems is a sign of humility. To grant ourselves absolution (after all we are the only ones who know how annoyed at ourselves we are for doing something wrong or being weak willed when being challenged by life’s little character builders) is just people recognising that they are not perfect but at the same time don't need to let it undermine their own self worth.

Jesus hung out with people who were regarded as hopeless sinners of little value. I think this showed that He valued all people regardless of their status or whatever. The lack of the kind of humility that Jesus showed in some churches is doing more damage to the church than individuals feeling good about themselves and having feelings of self worth.

Re: Confession. Granted you do acknowledge that not everyone who takes confession is fair dinkum (I’m a little puzzled at the responses above that have a go at the confession on this point) but you’ll have to confess that the insight and irony of that old Irish song “Wild Rover” is spot on. See next post

Wild Rover

I've been a wild rover for many's the year and I've spent all me money on whiskey and beer and now I'm returning with gold in great store and I never will play the wild rover no more

Chorus:
And it's no, nay, never no, nay, never!
No more will I play the wild rover no, never, no more

I went into an alehouse I used to frequent and I told the landlady me money was spent I asked her for credit, she answered me nay such a custom as yours I could have any day

I took from me pocket ten sovereigns bright and the landlady's eyes opened up with delight she said she had whiskeys and wines of the best and the words that she told me were only in jest

I went home to my parents, confessed what I'd done and I asked them to pardon their prodigal son and when they'd caressed me as oft times before I never will play the wild rover no more.

End

Yeah Paddy whatever you say brother.

Sorry Peter but these days you’re correct - confession is regarded with little esteem. The church has itself to blame for the lack of respect for confession because it absolved people of sins whilst they continued to carry on as before - don’t try and pass it off on others or bogey-man like “self esteem movements”. Own it. Best wishes on re-establishing Truth and truth in confession.

The Truth may set you free, but the truth will destroy your world of fantasy. And then on bended knee, we’ll understand the gist of Christian humility.

Church and Absolution:

If a Jesus character did died for our sins [subsitutionary ransom], it would seem that Church-based confession is redundant. If I were a Christian, I would see no need for a church, which would seem to be an unnecessary intercession. If I were Christian, I would posit a Pope, Bishop, Priest or Minister is no closer to any posited god than would be a lay person.

How often have you heard a member of the Christrian clergy humblely denounce the notion of the "Holy" Man in society or title? I have never heard of this. Rather, the Most Revereds of this temporal world seem to have aligned themselves with openly temporal leaders, doctors, mayors, school principals, police inspectors and the like.

When I did attend church, I can recall the fuss made, when the Bishop would visit. Given that, supoposedly, on a normal Sunday and any Sunday a god's presence was supposedly there, it seems incredibly temporal to be more engaged in pampering to a member of the Church's executive, which would add nothing to the presence of a god. Soft icons

Ronni,
I agree that I may have lambased the self esteem movement out of hand. The problem with it is that it is entirely reflexive, people are told to believe in themselves certainly a Christian heresy. It is not that we believe in ourselves but that God believes in us, without the breaking of the narcisistic circle we go nowhere.

Peter writes this article on confession and absolution but hasn't fessed up here on one of the most dishonest concepts ever perpetrated by some unpardonable people ....... i.e. belief in invented teddies (gods) where vulnerable people have their minds systematically emptied and replaced with a teddy vacuum ..... as if we do not want to give offense.

Within these religious playpens we just see these poor, unfortunate, praise addicts seemingly moving in unison, inexorably with some single, well-laid-out messianic agenda to where it is all grovel and praise, praise, praise to the all powerful teddy, this heavenly gift to be preserved, venerated, worshipped with utmost loyalty. This it seems is justification for the hidden agendas .... like ...... what must I do to be saved?

BUT, oh my gracious goodness, Peter then confesses something, ........ that he has "lambased the self esteem movement out of hand" because "people are told to believe in themselves" with praise rather than praise, praise to the all powerful teddy.

However,

life should be about raising consciousness, and not developing a conscience if that can be understood intelligently. The former is a thirst to understand the nature of our being while the later is born out of emotional blackmail by religious (teddy) cheerleaders. Whilst there is nothing wrong with people wanting to believe in themselves, unfortunately this assumed "self esteem movement" from the early 1970's has taken a similar messianic approach where it is all phony praise, praise, praise, too. Not of course to an imaginary teddy but to the individual although that duplicity remains.

Consciousness raising recognises the material fact that the brain is a muscle and giving it a harder workout makes it smarter. Responding to failure is a learning opportunity to exercise some testable implications and rational functions of the mind to understand and to avoid any hasty conclusions. We just need to find correlations to see the reality of our relationship to the environment, others, our bodies, and our emotions.

So we should forget the three Hail Mary's and the donation in the box and go and learn hard stuff.

Peter, as an ex-catholic, now bible believing christian my life could have turned out differently if the priest I confessed my sin of impurity to, at age 8, when he ascertained that the person my sin was with was a man, had not been bound by the seal of secrecy which, in my case, protected my rapist - a paedophile who probably raped and molested other small girls, and perhaps boys. He did tell me to tell my mother, and the police, but in my child's mind I thought that I was not only in trouble with God, (the priest was God in the confessional), I was also in trouble with the cops too. I did not tell, and made up my mind there and then I would have to go to hell when I died, because I did not follow-through with the priest's instructions and did not obtain absolution! Mandatory reporting by the priest could have saved my angst for over 40 years..
Amber