Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. From The Bordermail Thursday March 8th .....

TONY Abbott says he is powerless to influence the creation of a cross-border health service.
This is in stark contrast to claims made in the run-up to the Victorian election last year by now member for Benambra Bill Tilley that the Federal Health Minister was backing plans to fund the integrated service with Commonwealth money.

Tony, In this country you are free to believe in whatever deity and whatever manifestation of said god you choose. If you choose to be deluded into worshipping a god with a chosen people that commits crimes of genocide and mass murder for those chosen few or the Easter Bunny or Wicca, that is up to you. Section 116 of the Constitution makes it clear that you can't place your delisions before your Parliamentary job - as we have seen you do.

Credibility has nothing to do with being in the same room at a party or dinner as someone like Burke. If that is your benchmark of credibility your idea of the world is lacking - perhaps you would be better off in the clergy teaching more people about your delusions.

How's that child you threw away?

A sad attack - lets face it if we were to undertake a forensic examination - and some make it their lifes work - to examine every utterance of a politician the credibiltiy of every one of them would be in tatters.

And if Howard can get sign up - or thinks he - can from all the Premiers to fix the rivers why does Tony feel so powerless to set up a cross border health system? -

Rudd tells us for better or worse at the heart of Christian theology lies a commitment to social justice - Tony asserts this is rubbish - may be it is ( but I happen to agree with it )but he offers no reason - all I can draw from Tony's assertion is that he some how thinks social justice and christian pirnciples are mutually exclusive - I guess the conduct of his party gives some support to that.

He then tells us Rudd claims as an ex catholic he has never really left Rome - and goes to say many of his own fellow catholics find it hard to bridge that gap - well thats a bit funny when senior boffins from both churches have said that it is higtht time the split was healed.

The PM has been rolled more times than a marble by this PM - he remains an abject failure as a health minister - if any one is all tip and no ice berg as Keating described Costello - it is Abbot.

In the run up to this election I expect to see more of this stuff, pathetic as it is

A lot of the religious guff in this article seems a tad irrelevant to me, but Abbott does make a good point about Rudd being "all things to all people."

Don't get me wrong - unless something pretty catastrophic happens to the Labor party in the lead up to the election, I can't see myself preferring Howard over Rudd - but that isn't to say we should just gloss over some shortcomings in Rudd's policy approach.

He's done a damn good job of not alienating large sectors of the community, though the union challenge that has recently been laid at his feet represents his toughest task yet I suspect.
This whole Burke saga has really been a side issue to what is potentially much more explosive.

How Rudd handles this one, will, I think, be one of those defining moments that will map out his political future.

Ultimately, sooner or later, Rudd is going to have to choose which sectors of the community he is going to disappoint.

Tony Abbott is to me, one scary guy. He is so tortured by his religion one almost feels sorry for him. A man brought up on the knee of that spooky secretive character Bob Santamaria.He clearly has a contempt for democracy. His politics is sectarian exclusion.These cretins rail on about Socialism (it used to be Communism)as an affront to our democracy. Yet we know that the hidden hand of Abbott and his cronies extends wide and deep into our society.They trade on influence in high places,(the likes that the cretin Burke could only dream of)and have done so for over 50 years.
Abbott has no place in a democratic society, and his attack on Rudd in this article, has the potency of the proverbial wet lettuce leaf.

Tony, I was once a Catholic, but no longer consider myself one of the "fold" and I left the Church only because of people like yourself. Mr. Abbott, I liken you to the Catholic Mafia. They don't mind busting a few heads, a couple of legs, chop off a hand or two, not to mention the odd assassination and then go cheerfully off the mass on Sunday seemingly oblivious to the harm and human tragedy they leave in their wake.
The comparison between you and the Mafia is that neither of you stop to think that by being a Catholic and at the same time being a politician or a gangster (both are one and the same very often) is in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches. Being "one with Christ" means being pious and looking out for the lowly of our community, not expediating legislation which lowers the health of Australia's less well off, not placing a greater burden of stress on those on disability pensions, the unemployed and the under-employed. Also, it is very un-Christian to stand up in Parliament and attack the opposition leader like a crazed junk yard dog, while "dog master" John Howard sits silently grinning like an imbecile while he watches his attack dogs do their most foul work with such efficiency.
Mr. Abbott, the Australian people are absolutely fed up with such ridiculous political antics. Mr. Rudd will win the day simply by remaining the well heeled gentleman he is, copping the attacks on the chin and remaining calm and collected. How can you trust a party who's political methods rely on outragous attacks on good people? Screaming, yelling at and howling down the opposition like a wounded bear doesn't cut it with me and I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I am orientated neither to Labor or Liberal Government, but at the end of the day, it's the politician who better reflects the goodness in man that will win my vote, not the ones who use every opportunity including forums like OLO to further attack the opposition.

Tony asks:

[how he can be not a socialist and a Christian socialist at the same time.]

I'll try to answer

SECULAR SOCIALISM
"Socialism" as a political idea, as far as I can see, seems to have its idealogical roots in Marxism. Socialism is the 'tame', less hostile (to Religion) version.
But still, it remains a force based on secular humanist/marxist/materialistic determinism ideas.
I don't know many 'Socialists' who say much about God being their motivational force.(If those who rant and rave to themselves at various 'Socialist Alliance' demonstration fizzers that I have witnessed are anything to go by) Rather.. they are 'vigorously and passionately' agin the Church, and see little value in a Christ based society.

"CHRISTIAN" SOCIALISM
...began with Jesus, in that they shared what they had, and even had the material support of various women who accompanied their small evangelistic band.
The first expression of the early Christians living in a socialistic manner is found in Acts 2:42

[They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.]

It should be noted though, that this outpouring of mutual social equalization, was preceeded by not less than the day of Pentecost which must have been one of the most dramatic events of the century there. There was a call to repentance, to embrace Christ as Saviour, and to experience the renewal of life in Him.

JESUS' EXAMPLE. Lets also not forget that in 'Christian' socialism the leaders wash the peoples feet, serve rather than 'be_served', and they realize that the least_is_greatest in Gods sight.

CONCLUSION. I therefore feel Mr Rudd is distancing himself from the secular version, and highlighting the Christian version.

Tony... Kevin_Rudd will be assessed not by picking at his 'socialism' but by his heart. Labor will stand or fall on its policies.

If Tony Abbot can use this forum, then it would be only fair that Rudd be given the same right of reply. At least, you would think, unlike Parliament when the Speaker of the House shows such unfair bias to the Government in hogging the floor for commentary, other forums like these could show some balance.

On just about every media we have, we have a bias to the Howard Government. The Liberals either have corporate interests, or the Government has the ABC under its thumb.

This does not reflect the voice of the Australian people at all. A growing majority of Australians trust the ALP and Rudd over the Libs and Howard and Abbot, and no amount of bias towards the Liberal Party in OLO can change that.

Aint democracy a bummer!

As for dragging the Bible into this circus, I think this is worse than having a market place in a Church. Jesus didn't like that. He had a fizzy fit like Carson out of Queer Eye for a Straight guy let loose on a Footballer's house in Flushing. He was not happy at all, Jan! Tables, chairs and pews went flying all over the place.

Leave it alone or Jesus will hate you.

Do your dirty deeds in Parliament, but don't do it in the sacred name of religion, and don't hide behind it either for your convenience.

He sees you when you are sleeping, he sees you when you are bad or good, so be good for goodness sake--so--stop shagging the art students. How many "love children" did you have as the "galloping adulterer"?

BTW, that pic is very old. You are much older and tired looking these days. Your hair is not receding, its running for its life!

Leave the church out of parliament, stop shouting accusations at Rudd when your own party does the same thing, and stop patronising Australians like they are idiots.

We've worked it out Tony. The polls are not good for you.

As for Jesus, well, only Jesus knows what he'll have to say to you after this circus.

This article exposes Tony Abbot as an ignorant hypocrite.
I voted Conservative at the last Federal Election and I have a simple message for Mr Howard.
Get rid of this man or lose my vote.

The stoooopid Wabbott is not a guy, nor a bloke, nor a mate ... he is a joker, a screwed simpleton full of hypocritical behaviour.

When he says "As Smith should know, Rudd's problem is not his Christianity but his credibility" just remember it was this very Tony Wabbott that set up a $100,000 anti-One Nation fund in 1998 called Australians for Honest Politics but then promptly lied about it to everyone.

It just seems so absurd to have let the world fall sucker to these religious deadheads with their weird psycho brain problems, ........ that get themselves into politics. Now that the Wudd has come out and nominated himself as an official goofball too, it's not surprising to see more pathetic teddy (god) wars and religious playpen ratbaggery in politics.

Oh dear.

Another desperate attempt by a would-be leader (Costello and Nelson have been up to the same thing recently, only Turnbull has had the good sense to keep his counsel) to tear strips off Rudd by a person who has reached the apogee of his political career but doesn't realise it.

The Drover's Dog could win the next election. John Howard has sacrificed his credibility on every significant federal policy issue and the polls merely reflect what was inevitable once the ALP had provided a credible, ENERGETIC leader. Howard and the Government sound increasingly irrelevant and desperate and they will lose the next election. Abbott will not figure in any leadership team under Costello (who will have the first go at being Opposition leader after the ALP wins the election) or Turnbull (who will have the second go at that job).

It really sickens me the prevalence of smear campaigns and muck raking in Australian politics and especially by the Howard bunch for whom it is a primary tool in their bag of dirty tricks.

"On the political implications of his faith, as on his now notorious series of meetings with Burke, the best way to stop the questions is to answer them."
Rudd does not need to explain his religious views, nor does he need to justify who he has lunch with. He only has to put forward alternative policy for voters to consider.
So how about you start doing your job and ask important questions about policies and things that actually matter to the running of the nation of Australia instead of questioning a man's character.
Take a leaf out of your own holy book and remove the log from your own eye before looking for the speck in anothers.

If Mr Kevin Rudd would like to submit an article to OLO I would be very happy to publish.
Susan Prior - ed

Geez Tone, don't seem to be doing a very good job of convincing the punters around here.

Bummer that.

Maybe people have spotted the discrepancy between devout Christian and Chief Head Kicker?

Dear? Tony: You are a first grade hypocrite had your master - the L/R - not fed you a dog biscuit then removed your leash and commanded you to attack you wouldn't have written your dribbling hypocritical letter/article - have you no shame at all? or do you consider it an honour to be seen as howard's (L/R's) attack DOG! And the reason your miserable master let you of your lead and the ONLY reason is the forthcoming election and you mob are running scared so you will besmear anyone and spend any amount of tax payers money to hang onto power.
You spoke to the head o the catholic church - Pell? - then denied it until you were forced to come clean. There was a fund set up to destroy either Cheryl or/and Pauline you denied any part in those low miserable attacks on two women. You, the sneeringly arrogant costello and dolly downer all come into you own when you are attacking, denigrating and smearing others - nice christian strengths eh? but of course you are a good catholic aren't you? Regards, numbat

The Hon. Tony Abbott, what a laugh! There is nothing honourable about this man. He represents a morally bankrupt government that is floundering and desperately attempting to smear a decent man who had the courage to say he was wrong. Abbott is a bully boy who would stop at nothing to fulfil his ambitions. He hides behind the catholic church, an organisation that I for one do not find admirable. I am not interested in the religion of politicians and find it very irritating that Australian politics are now following those of the U.S. in that politicians must be seen to be god botherers. I would like to hear from all the atheists in politics as I find they usual have better moral standards.

Further to my earlier comment I have phoned Kevin Rudd's office to ask if he would be interested in offering a riposte. They will "get back" to me.

Susan Prior - ed

Rudd should stick to the main game and not respond to the mindless vitriol spewing from Abbott's quill.

I can see a bit of irony here - lately Howard, Costello, Abbott et al have all been attacking Rudd rather than the issues.

Can't help but feel most posts here are doing the same thing to Abbott.

I don't like the man one bit - but he does have a point that Rudd is playing both sides of the fence.

What do the other posters think?

Yes Keiran, Tony Abbott did set up the Australians for Honest Politics. How sad that it soon closed because of its fruitless search for an honest politician. We are expected to forget about these things on polling day.

Is it true that when Tony Abbott walks down the street Al Capone chooses to cross the road and use the other footpath lest his reputation be sullied by being seen with Tony?

Thank you, Tony, for your insightful and helpful article.

In this era of image politics, Rudd would be a fool not to take a leaf out of Howard et al's book and promote a pious image. Politics these days seems to have little to do with policy. To attack the man rather than the party or the policy is also par for the course unfortunately and is, I think, an unintended consequence of image politics.

It would also be foolish of Rudd not to promote his religious leanings as religion has raised its head as an issue since 9/11 and fundamentalists are securing increasing influence in politics.

It makes me uncomfortable, as religion I feel is used as a smokescreen for hardline policies that bear little resemblance to the teachings of Christ. Rudd, however, must play the game.

Yes Tony, it is true that Kevin is trying to be more rightous than thou,but "if you live by the sword you must be prepared to die by the sword."
Both you and kevin are self appointed moral judges.
May the best God win.

I think you're right Lizzie, seems it's in vogue for politicians to profess their religious alignment. Rudd is going with the trend.
Maybe by doing it he might negate Howard and Abbotts appeal to the emotional voters a little and get a little rationality back into politics. Wishful thinking i guess.

Tony, You have a few credability problems of your own little man.

I really do not understand why we need to be so rude about politicians. I don't think that we will ever find a single one that acts alone. Our emphasis should be on policies and big picture fairness rather than petty character issues. And frankly, I do not spend too much time worrying about how a politician looks at election time. I am more concerned about what they are prepared to do, and for who.

Tony Abbott's refusal to publicly disclose the source of the donations to his $100,000 slush fund is another example of cronyism within the Howard Government. The special deals and favouritism of government ultimately rely on secrecy, especially when it comes to political donations.

Abbott's failure to disclose raises some important questions:

Do the donors include business people who Abbott has favoured and assisted in his capacity as Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations? For instance, Terry Sharples has said that Minister Abbott gave favours to a Perth construction company in return for a slush fund donation.

Do the donors include corporations that Abbott has mentioned in Parliament and assisted through his anti-trade union campaign? Were the donations organised by Ian Harley Macdonald, Abbott's campaign director and fundraiser who was subsequently gaoled for embezzlement?

If Abbott could easily answer these questions he would have given a full account of the 'Australians for Honest Politics' by now. Honest politics demands the disclosure of political donations.
On 11 March 2000 Abbott told the Sydney Morning Herald that:
"I had secured the agreement of a donor to provide up to $10,000, if necessary, to cover any costs award made against Terry Sharples".

That was in mid-July 1998. On 10 August 1998 Abbott went on the Four Corners program and denied that any funds had been offered to Mr Sharples.

Having lied to the Australian people, he should now disclose the source of the $10,000 donation.

Since his election to Parliament in 1994, Abbott has specialised in backdoor politics – digging dirt, spreading rumours, raising slush funds and pushing other people forward to do his dirty work.

"The upshot of this was...a plethora of claims that a Catholic couldn't be trusted to make this decision [re RU486] on an ordinary rational basis."

I thought there was a plethora of claims that _Mr Abbott_ couldn't make that decision on a rational basis.

I also seem to remember a stunning victory for the pro-choice movement over RU486, supported by many female MPs of both the Left and Right.

David Jackmanson
http://www.letstakeover.blogspot.com
http://www.lastsuperpower.net

Tony,the Coalition have been playing against a very poor side for too long and now your party is beginning to play just like them.Kevin Rudd is articulate and is lacking in good judgement.Panic over the perceived rise of Labor will be your undoing.

If the Coalition don't tidy up IR reform, you will lose the next one.It was not well planned and the unions are crucifying you.

Totally socialised medicine will never work in the long run because anything that has the perception of being free,suffers abuse.There must be millions of visits to Doctors by people with minor ailments or who are just feeling lonely.Why not increase pensions and social security,make everyone pay something to see a Doctor and then people in real need will get the care they deserve.The rich can pay for themselves.It is called insurance.It can work if attention is paid to detail.

Forget about Kevin Rudd,get on with making good policies that will Australia a better country.

Get your act together since I don't want to suffer no talent time at the hands of Garrett and Gillard,the two GG's who will destroy us with their Trojan Horse of socialism and panic environmentalism.

Whatever happened to separation of church and state. People with strong religious persuasions of any kind should not be allowed to stand for government.

Keep religous belief in the private arena or you could end up with the equivalent of aatollah dictators of any religious persausion.

I have a daughter who is a strict Baptist and I have discussed the danger of voting for so called holy men with her as I thought it was something she should think deeply about.

Thank you for that Susan, maybe I was a little harsh on OLO. The topic of Abbott tends to bring us to boil and sometimes we steam in the wrong direction.

I think you may have a point DavidB, the concept of "Christian Socialism" is absurd as it is revisionist in its terms of reference, and therefore leads us into a postmodern mess.

Socialism may have been influenced by Christianity, but in chronology, of course, Christianity came first. To link the two is dodgy and suspicious. The last thing we need is revisionism and postmodern muddiness just to confuse us all, left right or indifferent.

Tony Blair and new Labour in the UK put the country into an identity headspin when Blair was not the progressive leader people hoped for. This really muddied the waters on both sides of the house, as the Tories also had to find their identity. This confusion still has jumbled up the House of Commons in the UK. It was getting like that at the end of the Keating era.

So we need to hang on to our seatbelts and get our bearings. We are about to have our identities challenged when all the rules and goal posts move.

Fletch...

the concept of 'socialism' is entirely Christian in origins as far as I can see. Its just that somewhere along the line, some bright sparks named Marx and Engles just saw the worst and most distorted manifestations of so called Christianity in the industrial revolution era, and then attributed that greed and exploitation based image to the roots of the faith and thereafter declared it the 'opiate of the masses'and sent God to the sin bin.

But in truth, one never needs to use the political idea or tag of 'socialism'... in the context of the Church. Its just plain 'Christianity'.. looking after the less fortunate within and without the Church..

"If you do good only to those who do good to you, what reward have you"(Jesus)

But the problem comes, when our faith becomes too intermeshed with a State. Within the 'Church' context we can enforce certain rules, such as a man living in on-going adultery will without question be 'kicked out' so to speak until he repents.

The Church as an organization, does not really have any political role other than as a prophetic voice.

Amos 5:24 "But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!"

Having said that, the crunch comes when various segments of society have differing views of 'Justice'.. such as with the standard list of 'left/right' issues.. including 'choice' 'homosexual behavior' 'censorship' etc etc.

At this point, a Christian politician must nail his colors to the mast, and be prepared to stand or fall on that basis. If he wins based on the democratic processes, then so be it. Same if he falls.

No 'Christian' politician could ever in good conscience support 'Same sex Marriage'.

I also think that Tony's attack on Kevin, might be a little about "He is a FORMER Catholic" not just "He doesn't have credibility", but just guessing there.

I don't feel comfortable when anyone seems to take a 'no matter what' approach to bring another down for the sake of political advantage, so it might backfire on Tony and the Coalition.

Some members of the Coalition can be considered to be garbage workers rather than members or Ministers of Parliament. The emphasis of the Government at present is trying to find mud in relation to Labor. Its as though the Liberals have acknowledged they have lost the way, and cannot stand on their record.

We are told that the Coalition is better at making decisions. Pretty good when the dumbest decision made in Australia for many years was to become involved in the war in Iraq. Poor decision making by Ministers was a constant issue in relation to Detention Centres.
The Coalition has been caught out in relation to their stance on Climate Change and are hurredly trying to make it appear as though they are on top of it. While David Hicks may or may not be a terrorist, the decision making around him has been appalling.

What Tony Abbott has written is akin to the stuff that come from the fundamental orifice of a bull.

If this is election year then Tony Abbott will be spouting all his Christian venom at all and sundry.

Yes, election year where goodwill, peace and harmony is banned. Rather we see supposedly responsible men and women attacking each other over minor issues, resignations suddenly are common, not from Parliament mind you, just Cabinet. Seems it's OK to be somewhat corrupt, unwise or just plain stupid if you are just representing the people of Australia.

In Cabinet of course one's loyalty lies with the "Leader", the old man who lives in a shoe, or several shoes.

Do as you're told Tony, rip into those awful Christians, you, like yourself. Supposedly that is.

What ever happened to trying to do what's best for the country and the people? Seems only minors and independents actually try to represent their electorates. Not Tony though. Attack dog he thinks. Panting poodle as I see it. Roll over Tone.

To add to Saint Fletcher's cry for equal time, where are the articles on policy from all those minor parties and independents? No coverage I'd suggest, certainly not here where majors are the hit draggers.

"I don't feel comfortable when anyone seems to take a 'no matter what' approach to bring another down for the sake of political advantage, so it might backfire on Tony and the Coalition."

I agree with you entirely David, which is probably a first. Ian Campbell has stated that he resigned for political reasons, rather than through having done something illegal, or even unethical. It’s disgusting to besmirch the character of another person for the sake of trying to hold power.

Mr. Abbott led the vanguard against Ms Pauline Hanson; Ms Hanson is about as far from my political views as you can get; however, she did not deserve the dishonourable attacks from Mr. Tony Abbott.

Polls are showing that politicians are at the bottom of the pile as far as the electorate expecting truth or ethical behavour; below or on a par with Used Car Salesmen. Do us a favour Mr. Abbott and worry about governing Australia rather than the imagined machinations of your opponents. You may even gain some respect back if you take such a stance.

There is a big difference between talk and act as we know. Whatever failings tony has, he had the courage, and must have had fear to go against the women of Australia, to stand up to act against the grosssly abnormal abortion rates in Australia. That takes a good soul, and we all know that we can trust our combined future to people with such souls.

To politics and religion. I think its become a complex dynamics of factors but the end act will determine the true make of the person/s making the proclamations. I agree on one side that rudd should clearly explain his faith and how it will influence his actions in politics particularly after making a public statement on it... we need to know...

On the other hand using religion to attract 'religious' votes is manipulation for victory and which then should raise alarm bells in all. Its hard to assess further until rudd does say what he exactly means and, eg by writing for olo, then we can assess and watch what he/them do if the power is given in trust to them...

Sam

Seeing that we're in request mode Susan how 'bout a few more articles on Islam and muslims? One per day would seem fair.

I don't know to much about Tony Abbot and I am not Roman Catholic but I do appreciate that he is one of the few who are not too gutless to try to do something about murderering the thousands of unborn each year. This is a far greater crime than the mess in Iraq.

"Since becoming Health Minister, I have described our abortion rate as a tragedy and wondered what can be done to bring it down."

Well, Tony, you could have a look at what has been working very well in Holland for years:

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm

"With the highest use of contraception among young people worldwide, the Netherlands has attracted international attention

How would you react if your boyfriend refused to use a condom? How do your friends feel about condoms? Write down what you think they will answer and ask them if you were right.
This open talk is how some teachers in the Netherlands approach sexuality with students between 12 and 15 years old. Subsidised by the Dutch government, the “Lang leve de liefde” (“Long Live Love”) package was developed in the late 1980s, when Aids became recognised as a threatening health problem. “Aids was an impetus for sex education in schools,” says Jo Reinders of Soa-bestrijding, the Dutch foundation for STD (sexually transmitted diseases) control, which developed the package in consultation with churches, health officials and family planning organizations. “It forced teachers to become more explicit and to discuss norms and values using a participatory approach.”"

But you can't support this proven concept, can you, because your Papal master does not approve of condoms.

In view of the amazing revelations regarding Brian Burke et al which have emerged in Western Australia since a few phones have been bugged, maybe Tony's phone calls should be secretly recorded to see if his policies are in line with what we would expect from him getting personal instructions from the Pope.

"Is it sectarian to ask Kevin Rudd questions about his real convictions?" Of course not, but lets not be sectarian about it, lets examine yours too. Not that there will be much of a difference in POLICY or politics between the two of you.
First conviction, in reality you should be called the minister AGAINST health because of the wrecking ball you are wielding in running the public hospital system and Medicare into the ground. So that you can hand them over to your cronies. The Labor party started closing down the hospitals from 1986 and the Liberal Party have carried it on.
Second conviction, neither of you speak for the mass of people, nor do you ever intend too. So in reality you are the ministers AGAINST the people. Whereas for Mr. Murdoch or Mr. Packer or big business, nothing is too much trouble, nor any act too deplorable.
Third conviction, means being honest, that you are both right wing agents of capitalism.
Fourth conviction, both of you support to the hilt the exploitive attack on workers and youth through the new workplace relations laws.
Whilst filling up your own pockets into overflow mode.
Fifth conviction, both of you support this criminal war in Iraq and both of you have been given orders off Cheney for a new war in Iran. Rudd is being sly about it playing peek-a-boo because of the elections coming up.

No party and no leader can be all things to all people.
I am constantly amused by single issue party's or party's that think of only a part of the voters.
However given that the two party preferred system mostly gets us back to reality Rudd appears to have it over the government team.
He is fully aware he must govern for most Australians and it seems most want him to.
Given the increasing lack of accountability in federal politics Under John Howard's leadership we should be both disturbed but not surprised at the increasing number who are being found wanting on both sides.
Kevin Rudd has from his first day in his roll forced accountability on his party and his self, it will take more than this thug like abuse to stop his passage to the top job.

Abbott's questioning has a broader target than mere beliefs. He has 'kicked' Rudd's heartland not his head.

Rudd should respond to Abbott's ideas...only if it's devoid of 'play the man' antics.

Rudd needs enunciate the Labor Party policy details of his proposed Iraqi withdrawal. They were recently speculated about in 'The Australian'. Once those details are more widely known in public arena Abbott's article will seem prophetic.

Generally the electorate believe Rudd will withdraw all troops from Iraq...sooner rather than later. That perception's been portrayed in the media.
If I recall correctly, as speculated in the mentioned article, Rudd's position on a withdrawal from Iraq, is that we will withdraw some ground troops and leave some there. Withdrawal will only occur with close liasion with the Yanks. We'll leave our naval force in the Gulf and if necessary we'll leave all our forces to complete their current tour and the next...if the Yanks want us to stay.

A comment in the article was telling. 'Rudd's policy would satisfy most of the factions in his party'. Sure it would, but he'd cop flack from every other quarter for the withdrawal 'you'd have when you ain't having a withdrawal'.

If the speculation is true then that case supports Abbott's contention Rudd tries to be all things to all people. However it's not because of his desire to be popular but from a desire to 'cement' his faction ridden Labor Party.
I think Howard's latest attack was accidental, but it has resulted in Rudd losing momentum. It also exposed the very weakness, targetted by Abbott. If Rudd, as he expects, 'comes back to the field' and as this aspect of his performance is continually targetted then very serious doubts will arise. In voters minds, his ability to carry the policy he attempts to project will be questioned and as people start examining details of his policies those doubts will magnify.

Re personal attacks, who's forgotten the 'liar' attacks over our entry into Iraq, the AWB attack's and the Nuclear Power related assault on John Howard's integrity. Many posters here have short memories.

I used to think that Bornhoffen was a yoghurt but now I realise that it was a simile for the philosophy of a well known cleric who had great insight and intuition during the Nazi Holocaust of WWII. It was a more serious culture when we consider the heroic story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

http://members.aol.com/baronvanc/christia.htm

I first heard of this man in the book by Heinz Heger called "the Man with a Pink Triangle". This autobiography about a homosexual "capo" trying to survive in Flossenburg a dreaded concentration camp. Perhaps not nearly as bad as Daccau where 20,000 homosexual were killed in North Sea hypothermia experiments. In all the humiliation and atrocities, they witnessed the hanging of "the priest".

According to Heger, he looked up to the dark cloudy sky and just as he was about to be executed, one spot of light shone right on his face. He was then hanged.

Apart from preaching tolerance this heroic icon preached "walking the walk" more than "talking the talk".

This is something politicians are just not capable of doing. For Rudd to claim that he follows Bonhoeffer, he risks being branded a hypocrite just as much as Abbot.

We don't agree on many things but David has a point. If you wave the Christian flag, you either nail your colours on the post, or you take a more modest approach, in the name of Bonhoeffer, and keep it personal rather than make it a public circus.

Some things are best left sacred.

Tony Abott's performance is an aborration. We can only pray that the voters of his seat will rid his face from ours for the sake of Australian dignity.

I guess Christians would like their dignity back too.

All the Labor ludites are waxing lyrical about their golden haired Messiah Kevin,however it takes a skilled,intelligent team with talent to pull it off.Other than Kev,there is nothing but a lamentable abyss of disgruntled Howard haters who don't have enough brains to realise that they are also part of the problem.

In nearly every Labor state with their Union agenda's we are seeing both social and economic decay.NSW is a classic example.How will Federal Labor be any different with far less talent than the Hawke/Keating eras?Keating left us with an $80 billion deficit and an economy in ruins.This deficit was almost 14% of GDP.We also had double digit inflation and unemployment.Oh how the memories are so short.History does repeat itself.Labor will again stuff the economy and the Coalition will again have to fix it.

Labor,the so called champion of the poor hurt them the most.They premote rights and victim status over responsibility and work ethic.

The Coalition should have not had such an easy ride and we are all the poorer for it.

No doubt Rex you would be proud of the sexualisation of young kids as done in the Netherlands. Many are happy to show kids of 4 or 5 years old perverted sexual acts including sodomy. I am sure that most citizens in Australia would love this. It is also in the Netherlands that Paedophiles want the age of consent dropped to 12 years of age. The Netherlands might be able to boast that they have taught 10 year olds how to wear condoms even if kids are being abused and losing their innocence at a much younger age.

Annoying stupor! Feeble, weak ineffectual, worthless and obtuse.

No wonder we are in trouble!

.

sharkfin said: "Whatever happened to separation of church and state. People with strong religious persuasions of any kind should not be allowed to stand for government."

Isn't that inherently discriminatory? The day religious observers are barred from participating in the debates about the values that underpin our society will the day Western democracy as we know it ceases to exist. Christian-based political parties currently form government in a number of staunchly secular European countries e.g. the Christian Democrats in Germany, the Christian Democratic Appeal in the Netherlands. Nobody is seriously arguing that these parties cross the line between church and state.

Dear Arjay,

What is a Ludite? Even if we asume you meant Luddites, what does a 19th century collective of basket weavers have to do with anything on this thread?

As to Labor, who claims they are any better than what we have now federally? I don't as if you look at how all the States operate the process is identical. Arrogance and ignorance combined with a refusal to plan and prepare for our future. A common complaint from all parts of Australia.

Our only hope is to change the syle of government, not just time share with the 2 major parties. Make MP's etc. responsible for their actions and votes. Put them on AWA's like they shout is suitable for all of us. Include penalties just like all AWA's, particularly loss of Office and entitlements. Currently they collectively bargain through the backdoor. In effect a Union for MP's where they are brothers and sisters with their little snub noses deep into the trough of taxpayer $'s.

A Union? My God, John Howard is a member of a Union!

I would not worry about what a Luddite is the claim seems to be the result of high blood pressure and fear of the impending defeat of this government.
Both sides of politics like to claim those who did not vote for them are at least thick, have been conned, or are unable to think clearly.
This is of course pure rubbish, each state in Australia, including a few who have not always been well governed have ALP government.
Voters have found themselves unable to trust the conservatives.
A clear failure on the conservative side to stay in touch with its once base or any base.
The reelection of the NSW government will again highlight a problem of conservative failure.
John Howard and his infamous hit team have insulted our Parliament and before it is too late conservatives must ask can we continue this idea that Australia is a state of America and needs no policy's of its own.
And is this thug like group acting as they are, better than policy?

Arjay says that we have never had it so good, and a vote for Labor would be against our best interests. I wonder whether those people living in the mortgage belts who have not been able to manage paying their mortgages and have had their houses sold from under them; would agree. I wonder whether those people who have had their entitlements taken from them by AWAs would agree. Reith was prepared to set rottweilers onto wharfies in the past, metaphorically the rottweilers were not leashed afterwards.

The dumbest decision made in Australia for many years was to go with the Coalition of the Willing into Iraq. How much resource is being squandered by this debacle? I know that there are strong arguments about troops remaining there now, and being pulled out at a suitable and safe time. The original decision was a particularly poor one.

If Kevin Rudd says that he is a Christian socialist then I accept his word, he is both a Christian and a socialist.

Another Christian socialist is Hugo Chavez whom many in the ALP and unions appear to be fond of

http://venezuelasolidarity.org/?q=node/58

Ant people on the mortage belts are suffering primarily because our Labor State Govt in NSW is using taxes on land and development as a source of revenue.They also release land slowly to restrict supply and keep prices high.This is Labor servicing it's heartland.

When Keating was in power we had interest rates rising to 18-19% with an inflation rate of 9%.Today we have interest rates of 6-7% with an inflation rate of 3%.In real terms under Keating we were paying 10% pa for our loans and today we are paying 4% for our housing loans.To improve the poor state of our economy the Reserve Bank dropped interest rates dramaticly.The availability of cheap money pushed up the price of housing.Places like Sydney saw price escalate to an extent whereby just small rise in rates hurt people.

Now if Morris Iemma stops using housing,a basic necessity,as a cash cow,prices will stabilise and rents will stop rising.

We have to stop feeding the hungry bloated bureaucracies that squander our hard earned tax dollars on empire building,waste ,poor decisions,red tape,OH&S over regulation,workers comp rorts by both workers,insurance companies.Morris spends $14 billion pa on front line workers' salaries and $7 billion goes to the bureaucrats pa.

Where has all the money gone indeed.We are a State on our knees and Morris Iemma is in denial about facing up to the real solutions.

Oh come on Arjay you're being ridiculous now. You have the answer to mortgage problems? Are you clairvoyant or just rich?

Do you really think governments have any effect on who can afford a home? If they do then they are also responsible for every other financial problem in society. What's your decision?

Why do so many continue to laud one side of the big 2 siblings and rubbish the other. They are related and behave exactly the same. Pauline Hanson said it and I agree with her. The Australian voter is just plain dumb.

To continually choose these two parties is a demonstration of that stupidity. Are you one of those barrackers? All Labor does is wonderful and the reverse? If so then just tick any box, which you probably do now anyway. Donkeys deserve what they get. So stop whingeing and vote with your head, not your....

Arjay, when I made the comment about the mortgage belt being hit it was in a general sense, Australia wide. My point was about interest rates, the Coalition promised they would look after those with a mortgage, the promise has not been kept as evidenced by the record number of mortgage sales Australia wide.

Keating made changes to monetary policy which has been to the benefit of the Coalition. The Coalition cannot now blame Federal Labor for any ills Australia is now involved in. Much resource is being wasted on Iraq, clearly the dumbest decision made by an Australian Government for many years.

By the way Irjay I haven't given Labor my first vote except for one election, and that’s over a dozen or more Federal elections.
Mr. Rudd is a bit of a thorn for the Coalition as if he could have easily slotted into the Liberal Party under Mr. Menzies. The Liberal Party has lurched to the right and is involved in governing only for sectional interests; that is, the big end of town ( IR legislation )

Tony Tony if the straw poll of this site is any measure then your Government if in trouble. Hell I didn't think I'd say this good post "BOAZ_David", now I'm going to wash my keyboard. Secular socialism and Christian socialism share many goals but their are some important differences. As a Secular Socialist I do have some concerns with Rudd however they pale into nothing when faced with a creature like Tony. While everyone else has covered most of his problems and then some, I think it’s important to remember to judge people by their actions and not their words. We should also bare in mind that even Polly’s are human and make mistakes, So we should forgive real mistakes as long as the lesson is learnt. How stafe is your seat Tony?

"No doubt Rex you would be proud of the sexualisation of young kids as done in the Netherlands. Many are happy to show kids of 4 or 5 years old perverted sexual acts including sodomy. I am sure that most citizens in Australia would love this. It is also in the Netherlands that Paedophiles want the age of consent dropped to 12 years of age. The Netherlands might be able to boast that they have taught 10 year olds how to wear condoms even if kids are being abused and losing their innocence at a much younger age."

Did you bother to read this article, Runner? It concludes with "” Jos Poelman of the Foundation for STD control has one answer. “Face the facts. We have the lowest number of teenage mothers [in Europe], and Dutch students do not start having sex at a younger age than their foreign counterparts.”" So yes, Runner, "Face the facts"!

On a previous thread, you claimed to have taught your children, as they went into young adulthood, the benefits of chastity, and I was happy to congratulate you on that. But I also pointed out that relying on preaching chastity was a general failure in lowering the rates of unwanted pregnancies and abortions, compared with the Dutch initiative.

I posted this website [as I have done on a number of occasions] because it shows the way in which evidence of success and common sense is ignored in Australia, in favour of following tactics which inevitably fail, but are in line with the religious beliefs of those who have the power to promote sensible policies, but who instead fail in their duty to the Australian people.

I don't have a problem with decision makers having religious/spiritual beliefs, but these beliefs should not be forced onto others. Roman Catholicism is traditionally dictatorial, so maybe Tony has a bigger problem in this respect than Kevin.

It was a welcome attempt by editor Susan Prior, in the course of this monologue-like stream of comment, to be even-handed and invite Rudd to put an article on OLO.
I am not too sure where that would get us.
Upon what stage would the two players be word-dancing?
That of mud-raking vitriol?
Or the religious - Christians marching as to (uncivil)-war?
We already have had a suggestion by Sage on the religious bit: a weekly parade of (uncivil?) debate on Isalm (versus Christianity no doubt).
Heaven forbid! That has been done to death. If more of this unproductive style of religiosity does get a gong I make a plea:
Lay off the over-done Islam versus Christianity, and change the scene a bit. Let's dance to a new theme. Maybe Thor versus Athena; or Buddha versus Quetzalcoatl; ---.
If we are to continue with the burden of misanthropes misapplying ancient social dictates towards modern times, let's be even-handed about it- be multicultural-friendly and invite Horus,Vishnu, and all that jazz to play in the band.

In getting into all this religous rubbish in the first place, through his ill conceived and somewhat contrived article in The Monthly,Kinetic Kev made the fundamental error of going into battle on ground chosen by team coconut.
If I were KK I would not be reponding to spray by The Terrible Tony in this edition of OLO. I would rather see KK pick the time and place of his attacks and the content and manner of delivery.
Play on Howards terms and you will loose on them.When KK had them running after him weren't they wildeyed and breathless, stopping to listen to them was a mistake. Babbling Brian should have been a one day event.Be prepared don't let them Tampa with ya.
Anyway with wisdom gained it is a trick that can only be pulled once.Right?
Puerile,pointless politics of the major and some minor parties. Poor us paying for and having to put up with this rubbish.
Tony, me old mate,stick your religion. Your jingoistic mob likes to draw on the( mythical ) traditions of the Digger let me tell you from experience you would not have got the first paragraph out before
getting a boot tossed at your head; and Kev stop telling the troopies how to dig their trench go and give them a hand.
Boys, the issues are profligate spending on defence equipment of dubious value and in one instance on discarded helicopters.
Howard has said he will give $10b over 10 yrs for M/D reform prior to the science being done ie the amount defines the solution.Offset this against $24b for new ADF aircraft,$7b for new A/W Destroyers and
over$1b each year to keep the troops in Iraq.The electorate have already said they believe the environment is a bigger issue than security so what is this government up to.
There is a veritable cornucopia of issues from health to infrastructure for the Labor Party to address, I just pray that KK does not leave it too much longer before indicating an educated awareness and policy responses.
Bruce Haigh

Rex, I think most of us are suspicious of those who claim they have "words of advice for young people".

Probably the most famous who carried this jingo was William S Burroughs. In his wit and sense of irony, this also includes warning us about the church. Enjoy the script and the U Tube sample.

Beware the bad language, be over 18 to open these. (advice)

http://www.jjjwebdevelopment.com/306sites/burroughs/burroughs.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgLcv1mQZBg

"Get that in writing!" lol

Why is it that in politics, everyone is an expert, yet none seem to know much about their own causes at all?

Before they make statements, they should write contracts to the High court. If they are telling an untruth, they should be forced to pay compensation to the Australian people. Then they may be accountable for their "words of advice".

From the article, I couldn't work out what Tony's problem with Kevin Rudd was?

The gist of it seemed to be that Kevin Rudd once claimed to never having been a "socialist", while at another point, claimed to be a "Christian Socialist", while being an "anlgican who never lost touch with Rome"?

That's it? Really? Surely Tony Abbot, the stalwart of the right in the Federal Liberal party, could be better than that? 500 words of beating around the bush, and he doesn't touch Rudd on policy.

So what's his problem? Rudd is playing popularity politics? Pot. Kettle. Black.

Rudd brings a different interpretation of Christianity to the floor of parliament? Such oppinions have been voiced before (although rarely so loudly).

It seems to me as though Tony Abbott has taken an ill thoughtout swing at Rudd. If he wants any of it to stick, he really needs to come up with some genuine objections.

(Disclaimer. I will be preferencing neither Labor or Liberal this coming election.)

Abbott's article only reaffirms that the Howazrd government knows it is on shaky ground so all the smutty dogs or character assassins have been let off the leash! When Howard goes early as he surely must - Costello will take over as PM and is Abbott vying for the treasury post? A return to that inspired Abbott and Costello comedy show which had a good workout some time ago? So, desperate people do desperate things, while some of the slime sticks people also see the perpetrators in their true light. Bring on the next election!

Once more we can learn a lesson or some of us can by reading the polls.
While some post rabid anti Labor stories the only people that matter are speaking, the voters.
The impending election of Kevin Rudd as Prime Minister is assured.
While this governments hit team try to uncover dust under Rudd's carpet behind them in the governments room the carpet has become a mountain of hidden problems.
Again surely it is clear? conservatives must prepare to rebuild the party Howard and a few close supporters have so badly damaged.
Every state in Australia and soon the federal government in Labor hands and some continue to blame the voters?
Some even fail to understand the rejection of Australian voters is massive and unstoppable.
More dirt? or policy's?
A new direction and leader seems the best conservative move.

Betty said,"Do you really think that Govts have any effect on those who can afford a a home?" The term that should be used is "home affordability".

Hate to disappoint you Betty but Govt taxes do affect house prices.In NSW we have GST which goes to the states,stamp duty,infrastructure levies etc in the case of a new home,all add up to 30% of the cost of housing and land.I'd like to know how the infrastructure tax is being spent since many of oue new roads have tolls on them.

Some people will support their beloved Labor no matter how inept or corrupt they are.

Howler

You said
"Abbott's article only reaffirms that the Howazrd government knows it is on shaky ground so all the smutty dogs or character assassins have been let off the leash!"

Do you not see the hypocrisy of your own comment?

Arjay.

Hate to disappoint you as well, all you can come up with is that 30% of the cost of a house is Local and State Govt charges. Whats new, this percentage figure has stayed pretty much the same for decades.

The GST and $14,000 fist home owners grant pushed the price of a new home up by $30,000 overnight.(NSW is not Australia by the way)

The Treasurers latest superannuation changes (where if you have a lazy million dollars you can get at it tax free) has resulted in a rental situation that is worse than when Labor abolished negative gearing.

The 18-19% interest rate "red herring" is also not quite right, my recollection of the times is that the vast majority of people were on fixed interest mortgages and that existing variable mortgages were capped at 13% (Did you forget? or did you not know?)

Given the latest poll it seems that John Howard has shot himself in the foot. It is not because of Kevin Rudd, it is because our Govt is seen to be failing us.

Some people will support their beloved Liberal party no matter how inept or corrupt they are.

Arjay, you're apparently well versed on economic indicators from times gone by and an aspect of the interest rate witch hunt of the late 80s and early 90s interests me.

Do you know what the interest rates were in Margaret Thatcher's Britain at the same time as Australian interest rates spiked under Hawke/Keating? I seem to remember they went over 16 per cent.

If they did, I'd be interested to know how that was the Labor Party's fault since on your analysis (and that of the Federal Government) responsibility rested entirely with the then Australian Government.

Kevin Rudd, Tony Abbott et al need to remember that History has struggled valiantly and repeatedly over a very long period to show and teach us that keeping religion out of politics is essential to the maintenance of good government, reliable governance and common sense. Beyond acknowledging that we live in a liberal Christian democracy, and that our citizens should expect to see that belief system and guiding morality as a dominant factor, religion has little to offer the macro management of our community. Indeed, as things stand, we see the central pillars of such morality and belief systems challenged and scorned by politicians on virtually a daily basis - not least by Rudd's own colleagues .......... I reckon politics as we see it has moved well on from religion having any but a token part in the affairs of our nation. Religion has become unattractive to most ordinary people, and is seen as a hollow attempt to console the weak and marshall the emotionally and intellectually vulnerable for self-advancement. I would look with scepticism and tense concern at politicians who are quicker to offer a view of their religious commitment than their spiritual character. To sum up ........ caveat emptor, punters !

Tony, my pint sized enemy, if you follow cricket, they say the runs are on the board, re today's poll Rudd 67% approval rate, the ALP at 50% primary vote, it's over not even your God can help you now.

Steve Madden,you extrapolate lies with the greatest of ease.NSW State Taxes have not remained constant over their tenure of a dozen yrs.What you espouse is errant and dishonest nonsense.This Carr/Iemma Govt have destroyed the largest most prosperous state in the name of Public service/union self indulgence.People and investment are fleeing this state in droves.Even Morris Iemma acknowledges this in his pathic apology,"We are headed in the right direction."
I stopped supporting Labor when Keating had his love affairs with "banana republics".

You have missed the central drift of my argument.The Coalition Federally have under performed because Labor have been so pathic.They have lowered their standards to that of the opposition.We as an electorate are now considering voting in a second rate Govt just because Howard has been in power too long and the trendies think it is time for change?

There are many areas of policy which the Coalition need to be taken to task on such as their ill planned IR reform,but Labor and their usual platform appeal to our weakness rather than our courage to achieve.Hence Labor,in times of their power,have been marked by poor productivity and poverty.

No ,State taxes in NSW housing have not remained constant as you have alluded to.Land taxes have increased and infrastructure taxes are new.We can give the tag of inept,incompetent economic fools to NSW STINK much like WA INK,but never nationally,in the last 12 yrs to has our economy faltered to that of Paul Keating,"Banana Republic" status.Alias "Placebo Domdingo"

Gough stopped me going to Vietnam,but Keating gave me poverty.

Arjay,
You can stop the small talk if 67% of the population want the Labor Party & Kevin Rudd, your cause is lost old mate, stop torturing yourself and move on to the reality of a Labor Government federally, as well as in every State which means you are in the minority groups old mate.

Ajay interest on a home loan of $150.000 in the last world wide interest rate blow out is fact.
Todays average loan may well be far more than $300.000 for some, John Howard said he would not let this happen.
It is time mate to question the direction of Australian conservatism, a black hole of voter discontent awaits you.
It is true that it will be found to be warmer than you expect Labor has only left it in the last six months.

Arjay, as much as the Coalition would love to blame the Labor states for record low levels of housing affordability, Howard and Costello should be accepting the lion's share of the blame. Costello's halving of capital gains tax in 1999, combined with negative gearing and deductibility of depreciation and capital works, has had a massive effect on house prices. Housing prices have soured, and so has foreign debt (excaserbating our CAD problem and adding upward pressure on interest rates). High immigration levels have also contributed to the housing affordability crisis. The Coalition has ramped up immigration levels at the behest of big business, leaving the rest of us to pick up the bill for their greed in the form of exorbitant property prices. State government policies are largely inconsequential in comparison.

Ogliarch, negative gearing, depreciation and capital allowances (which include depreciation) have been around since before 1996. In fact since that time claims for investment property expenses have been clamped down on severely. As for capital gains tax being halved, well that's not entirely right either. Yes, since 1999 an individual investor can discount their capital gain by 50% before having it taxed, as long as they have held that investment for more than 12 months. However, we have had indexation since CGT was introduced in 1985, which meant that you didnt pay CGT on the basic capital gain anyway. The 50% discount was designed to simplify the CGT regime so that compliance costs were less, revenue was more secure and so the lay-person could understand it. Housing prices have been steadily increasing over a long period of time despite the fact that CGT was introduced in the first place. The real problem is not one of incentive to invest, it is one of availability. Come out to the country - plenty of empty houses you can get for next to nothing (although not in my town - theres a mine here, so real estate is expensive).

Hi Country Gal,

I read your posts with interest and often see sense in what you say. I realise this is a bit off topic, but I'm interested in your opinion on something which could be a new thread, if you feel like introducing it.

From time to time you make the point that there are advantages to living in the country. I lived in a big country village in Yorkshire before coming to Western Australia in 1962. But Leeds, a large city, was just down the road and other cities and large towns were not so far away.

I lived in Dampier in the 1960s, Port Hedland around 1970 and Darwin just after Cyclone Tracy, all business related. I have also worked and travelled extensively in isolated country areas of WA and the NT, so I know what it's like to be "in the middle of nowhere". I never talked like this to my clients of course, but I just couldn't imagine what it would be like to be stuck in some of these places.

The lack of public facilities of various kinds which city people take for granted. Health, education, sports, entertainment, shopping, on and on.

In my mind, perhaps the biggest problem of all is the lack of employment or business opportunities, leading to young people virtually having to leave country areas in order to get a job. So a shortage of girls for the guys, and perhaps also a shortage of guys for the girls.

We see programs on WA TV showing how housing blocks are released by local councils for next to nothing in some of our country towns, in an attempt to attract new residents. But having some knowledge of some of these areas, I sometimes wonder what kind of social life the newcomers will have, apart from any other considerations.

Apart from finding something under the ground worth digging out, what chance do such areas have of competing with urban, and mainly coastal areas, despite the affordable housing?

Arjay

If you read my post I did not say that charges have stayed constant as usual you have bent my words into something else. ( A common Liberal trick) I was talking about charges as a percentage of costs of a new house and land package. Did you realise that the GST adds about $40,000 to this cost today?

The difference now is that in the past infrastucture was paid for by Public Sector debt. Which meant infrastructure was paid for by everyone over a few generations, now because public sector debt has been outlawed by the economic rationalist gurus infrastucture costs are paid by new home buyers.

As for banana republics, Keating was talking about the current account deficit, what he was refering to was minute compared to the CAD now. We are living in Costellos' banana republic right now. This is because of his squandering of this countries wealth to pork barrel at election time, refusal to spend on skills and wealth creation and his incapacity to see that spending on infrastructure is what creates a successful nation.

ALL of the budget surpluses equal the amount the Govt. has made by selling assets. Economic managers I think not.

This Government's legacy will be a generation of renters. Well done.

Shonga

John Howard is God. And he will overcome all.

Keith

Hansard from 8th February 2007 says it all in relation to honesty and transparency. Senator Murray moved that Australia follow the example of the Canadian Government in relation to accountable and honest politics.
When voted on there were 31 ayes, 32 noes; the Coalition members were those who voted against honesty and transparency. Have a look at http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds080207.pdf

The hypocracy on the part of the Coalition is breath taking.

Steve Madden,you said that interests rates under Keating were capped at 13%.That is errant nonsense.Unless people fixed their rates early in the piece,many paid up to 20%.It all depends upon which institution you borrowed from.

Housing affordability is not a Federal Govt responsibility.It is primarily an State Govt domain.All these taxes on land and housing is state based.The Reserve Bank thanks to the Coalition is truely independant.Federal Govts create the economic conditions for interest rate movements.When an economy is getting overheated,or inflation increases they rise.Keating had high inflation,and unemployment.His poor economic management resulted in high interest rates thus bringing on a serious recession.

Let's further investigate our Labor NSW debacle in the housing sector.Aside from their taxes adding 30% to the cost of housing we have some of their other economic farces that have added to the cost of housing.12yrs ago an addition to a house cost an average of $1000.00 per sq m.Today it is three times that.In real terms with an average inflation rate of 3% there should have been only and increase of 43% instead of 300%.We had the home warranty insurance debacle whereby buliders had to indemnify themselves with their own assets and pay the premium.The Labor NSW Govt stood idely by as many small efficient builders left NSW and big companies just charged at will.We also have the Union driven OH&S debacle that no business can possibly comply to.The result is that no one wants to train an apprentice for fear of being charged with criminal neglect even if you are innocent.The Union gets half of the fines,and they alone can send you broke.This Iemma/Union joke continues to this moment.

Workers comp,which is indemnified by the NSW Govt, went broke to the tune of $3 billion because the Public Servants were using stress leave as holidays.In one year alone it was $672 million a rate that was three times that of the private sector.So Bob Carr limited payouts and now many genuinely injured workers live in poverty.The Labor Govt punished businesses and poor workers to pay for their Public Service excesses.

Country Gal, the halving of CGT, combined with existing negative gearing provisions, has encouraged investors to switch from shares into property. You cannot tell me that Costello's reduction of CGT hasn't corresponded with the nation's property price bubble. Even the RBA and the Productivity Commission have recommended changes to the tax system so that it no longer encourages property speculation. A 1999 Productivity Comission report observed: "Like many participants [in its inquiry], the commission has concluded that these general taxation arrangements have lent impetus to the recent surge in investment in rental housing and consequent house price increases."

Sadly, the Coalition isn't interested in reforming the tax system, and thus continues to favour the high-income earning real estate speculators at the expense of housing affordability for the rest of us. Just in case the tax system isn't distorting the real estate market enough, high immigration is further pumping demand.

This real estate bubble is not only hurting ordinary Australians, it's a threat to our entire debt-ridden economy, especially if global interest rates continue to rise. Considering our woeful trade performance, Australia's capacity to contribute to the servicing and ultimate repayment of our ballooning foreign debt is grossly inadequate. Not even our quarries will be able to bail us out. Why, then, do why have a tax system which provides such powerful incentives to invest in debt-intensive assets which provide no capacity to actually service our foreign liabilities?

It's going to be an interesting next few years for the Australian economy, especially if our terms of trade decline and foreign lenders raise the cost of lending to Australians, or stop lending altogether.

Arjay

Perhaps Mr Howard has trouble recalling the time when he was treasurer under Malcolm Fraser. A visit to the Reserve Bank's historical interest rates page on its website reveals that the highest 90-day bank bill interest rate of 21.39 per cent occurred in April 1982 during the Fraser government with Mr Howard as treasurer.

The highest during the Hawke government was 19.56 per cent in December 1985. The highest under Paul Keating was 7.95 per cent in December 1994, which is only marginally higher than the highest under the Howard Government of 7.57 per cent in April 1996.

Another inconvenient fact. :)

Let's go back a step further to Gough,in a time of a resources boom he spent like a drunken sailor and sent us broke.In the entire term of John Howard's reign,we have not seen anything approaching a recession but that does not make him the golden haired boy who can do no wrong.Under Hawke/Keating and continued by the Coalition,we had the reduction of tarrifs which have destroyed our industries under the lie of a level playing field.This will be our undoing in the name of globalisation and the aiding of over populated third world countries.It suits multi-nationals who want cheap labour and left wing environmentalists who want to reduce us all to the lowest common denominator.Too many people on this planet with limited resources and energy,cheapens human endeavour.This is not a good recipe for world harmony.

I will always go with the philosopy of rewarding individuals and small businesses who show courage,innovation and hard work.We have to a large exent are losing the plot in discipline,respect for each other and rewarding the real producers in our society.PS.That does not include banks,lawyers,bludging bureaucrats or insurance companies.

The Coalition have not backed Australian technoloy and innovation just like previous Govts and this is our Govt's greatest sins.The soul of our innovation and intelligence has moved off shore.The Coalition should have gone two elections ago,but sadly there is nothing on the horizon with real talent that should replace them.One articulate Kevin does not make a competent team.

Bob Carr was more articulate and clever than Kevin,but he destroyed NSW through sheer neglect.I see no talent beyond Kevin Rudd and even he is yet to prove his credentials.Labor under Gillard and Garret will destroy us.It was an ill planned union orchestrated by Labor in sheer desperation and bereft of talent.

The Crazy Grazier Malcolm,one feeble lefty,had an identity crisis,he should have joined the Labor Party.

I was intrigued by the comment
"At the swearing-in of the new parliament in 2004, fully half of his lower house Labor colleagues chose to take an affirmation rather than an oath on the Bible. Under these circumstances, it takes guts to declare that Christianity has a role in public and private life."

The fact that half Rudds colleagues chose an affirmation would suggest that the other half chose to swear on the bible. Why does it take guts in that situation to declare that christianity has a role in public and private life? What about the coalition - how many of them took an affirmation ( Abbott's comment leads me to suspect that it was a minority)? How much guts does it take to declare that your allegiance is not to the christain faith when a majority of your collegues don't do so, when the PM and a number of senior ministers are very open about their adherance to that faith?

That comment raises some interesting questions.

R0bert

Mr Rudd can claim religious beliefs if he wishes, I don't care. I care about 'morals' and transparency in politicians. Australia has a Federal Government funded, and State Government licensed 'Scheme', that is designed to take away the business rights of women, so I see no morals there. When three political parties can be 'involved' in a scam that price-fixes businesswomen onto horribly low fees, which are often below award rates - then I see no morals unless they are 'Fascist morals'. Parents also have their 'purchasing rights' removed when they were forced to purchase services from price-fixed business owners. I'm talking about the 'Approved' childcare benefit Scheme, for parents on low incomes that wish to purchase childcare from home-based childcare business owners. Mr Costello didn't have a 'childcare waiting list', he had a 'benefit waiting list'. He didn't uncap any childcare places, he uncapped a benefit waiting list and he only did that because I made him do it. A 'benefit waiting list' - how fascist was that? He still has the business 'cartels' price-fixed by force. I was put out of his 'Scheme' for asking the ACCC to take action.