The fact that Jewish dissenters are denounced by Jewish groups as they encourage anti-semitism shows that Israel is not a true democracy and never has been.

Sure the people get to vote but their right to free speech is more important probably than the vote.

Reasonableness is what is missing from the world. It is missing in our Aussie Govt., the USA Govt, The Israeli Govt, and Arab Govts.

If Israel could only lead by example and listen to the dissenters without howling them down then perhaps her enemies would see a more reasonable group to approach for peace.

I know that is simplistic as the Middle Eastern problem is much more complex - but reasonable people, attempting reasonable goals, with reasonable attitudes for a reasonable purpose should be tried instead of the hard line attack at all cost mentality that the dissenters encounter.

Keep Dissenting people - you are making you nation better by doing so.

Thank you for this Antony. Some in OLO know how long I have studied the holocaust as a non-Jew. I did learn from oral history from a variety of children of the holocaust who chose to live in Australia.

Do you know what I headache it is trying to explain the Difference between those who are patriots of Israel, and those are Jewish Australians. Even the most orthodox of Jewish culture and inheritance do not have to identify with Israel per se.

Many disagree with the politics of Israel and are embarrassed by it. Then they get so frustrated when all are put in the same box as "the Jews". Then they get the blame for politics that they disagree with.

Some forget that some Palestinians are Jewish, Christian or atheist.

Even in Hebrew, the word "Is-rael" means the Holy Land that we live on. The rock strata’s in geology are sometimes known as "raels" in Archeology in that part of the world, showing chronology of time.

Australia is a sacred land too to Aboriginal people. It is increasingly sacred to many of us who are non-Aboriginal since settlement. That does not mean that we worship the land. It mearly means "the sacred land we live on".

That could be anywhere on the planet. In civilisation, no one should be dispossessed of his or her land. I don't know if I am out of school here, but to many Jewish Australians, this is their Israel.

What land? Who owns any land?

If there's one thing I'm really tired of it's all those ethnic groups calling themselves "The Australian XXXXX" etc. If you're Australian then leave these ridiculous groups where they belong, in the past.

You create ghettos, ethnic, physical, mental and geographic. Choose to live in them if you will but don't blame anybody but yourselves for your ignorant non acceptance of the life you could have here.

All you do by clinging to such historic angst is to carry it through generations. Give it to your children, they'll be ever so grateful to you.

Get off the bandwagon and start treating all as simply people. If you want to display your personal opinions in your dress or appearance then do be ready for the responses. Usually people look because you look ridiculous in our climate.

People who look at you are not racist, biased or otherwise anti anybody. It's you who search for this and of course you find it. Usually though when you do find it you are standing in front of a mirror. That's right, it's you, whingeing about bias and racism.

Give it a rest for any deity's sake.

Chirping and Muttering by false prophets who "mouth sweet words the king wants to hear" will end up on the historical scrap heap. Be thankful that there is no Elijah around to deal with them as he did in the 'Gool ol days' (400 prophets of Baal and 450 prophets of Ashteroth executed)

To put ALL Israel/Palestinian discussion in the correct perespective you must examine the most highly motivated people and entrenched, canons of historical orthodoxy on both sides.

GENESIS 13:15 "all the land you see, I will give it to you and your descendants forever" (G-d speaking to Abraham)
How long for ? 4EVA!

HAMAS Part III article 11

[The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.......

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.]

COMMENTS: Notice the
-status "Islamic Waqf" (google it)
-Duration "Until the day of resurrection"
-Unchangable
-ESTABLISHED BY FORCE (Glad they admit this.. Muslims are constantly saying they only fight defensive wars)

So... an Islamic Waqf was established by FORCE and now.. shock horror an Israel/Zionist entity is established by...FORCE.. gee.. now can anyone spot the bad guy here ?

The phrase "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" comes to mind.

There is no point or value in addressing the idealists, romantics, sentimentalists ideas.. they would be subsumed by the "Islamic Waqf" mob or the "Zionist" mob.

It boils down to whether you have a Chain gun or an Ak47..(Humanly speaking)

David

So why do Israeli Jews denounce the policy of other Israeli Jews?

Don't the agree with you?

Dear Keith
very simply.. most Israeli's are secular. I don't think I've ever argued differently.
In both cases of the Palestinians and Jews.. its the likes of Hamas and the Orthodox Jews who cling to the 2 polarizations I listed in my previous post. Large numgers of Jews.. mostly settlers, support that view. (which is why they settle on what others term 'Palestinian' land... to them its Abrahams land. or in reality G-ds bequeethed to Israel for eternity)

Personally, I gravitate to the Israeli/Genesis understanding of the 'land title'.

As for those Jews who criticize others about government policy, and prefer some kind of negotiated solution involving compromise, I honestly think they either have no clue about the foundations of Hamas, or they are simply in denial about it.

I doubt many secular Jews have taken the trouble to educate themselves on the real Islamic mindset.

You can see from Sganot's posts that he takes a different view from me it seems. Steve tends to place more weight on such things as 'UN version of Human Rights'.
Logic is another Jew who seems to not place much weight on the Genesis promises.