The conventional wisdom in Palestine once was that "The only good Jew was a dead Jew". Obviously times have changed for the better. Let us hope that the non-Zionists prevail.
The other conventional wisdom was that "You don't need enemies when you have Arabs for friends." That doesn't seem to have changed, so I don't know where that leaves the politics in Palestine.

It seems to me that the greatest threat to world peace comes from states where there is no real separation between the established religion and the government. Where this is the case any action can be justified as having a religious imperative. Israel is certainly such a state, and even worse it appears that it is the more fundamental (if not outright extremist) wing of its established religion which has the strongest link with the government. With reports of even Jewish women being relegated to the back seats of buses it is clear that the extremist Jews share their intolerance and misogeny with the worst aspects of Islam.

Even more concerning is the trend, apparent both in Australia and in the USA, for fundamentalist Christian religions to parasitise the government so as to exert control on policy making.

Shocked to hear that the Israeli PM Ehud Olmert praised the Iraq War as bringing stability to the Middle East.

Though we know that the above war is far from over, Olmert is apparently so sure of America's unlimited power that Iraq is sure to be steered into the American Way.

Though one tries to be fair, it makes one so angry at Olmert's self assuredness, as he believes there is some ridiculous righteous law that such should happen.

Already Israel with the consent of America has been blessed as the only Middle East nation with atomic artillery, which could mean that if Iran does try to influence the outcome of the Iraq War overmuch, Israel will be given the okay from the US to drop nuclear bombs on Tehran.

It is so interesting to see Condoleeza Rice getting obviously upset because the Palestine Arabs refuse to recognise Israel as a state.

Well now, still not taking sides like Jimmy Carter, can one blame the Arabs?

I too find that Jews in my politcal party (CEC)are condemned as anti-semites whenever one of the ultra-right pro isreali establishment is critisized.

It's has an ugly predictable hysterical air to it when peace seeking Jews are sneered at and cast as traitors by their co-religionists.

Danby and Mark Liebler are old hands at this sort of slander.

Antony,

For some years I've read your articles and felt you're one of the few sane Jewish voices. Unfortunately, I feel you let your brethren off too lightly.
For a group of people who feel their suffering has given them a sort of moral superiority, Jewish silence in the face of Palestinian suffering has been indefensible.
And unfortunately a few lone voices now won't change anything. Condolezza Rice will still be handed US Mid-East foreign policy by AIPAC. The AIPAC will continue to find ways to thwart peace. The settlements will keep expanding. And the Palestinians will keep living and dying in abject squalor.

Well said, eet!

Sometimes I think that the only thing the Jews learnt from the holocaust was how to do the same thing to someone else!

For a state that was borm of terrorism the Israelis are the world's paradigm of hypocrisy!

The fact that Jewish dissenters are denounced by Jewish groups as they encourage anti-semitism shows that Israel is not a true democracy and never has been.

Sure the people get to vote but their right to free speech is more important probably than the vote.

Reasonableness is what is missing from the world. It is missing in our Aussie Govt., the USA Govt, The Israeli Govt, and Arab Govts.

If Israel could only lead by example and listen to the dissenters without howling them down then perhaps her enemies would see a more reasonable group to approach for peace.

I know that is simplistic as the Middle Eastern problem is much more complex - but reasonable people, attempting reasonable goals, with reasonable attitudes for a reasonable purpose should be tried instead of the hard line attack at all cost mentality that the dissenters encounter.

Keep Dissenting people - you are making you nation better by doing so.

Thank you for this Antony. Some in OLO know how long I have studied the holocaust as a non-Jew. I did learn from oral history from a variety of children of the holocaust who chose to live in Australia.

Do you know what I headache it is trying to explain the Difference between those who are patriots of Israel, and those are Jewish Australians. Even the most orthodox of Jewish culture and inheritance do not have to identify with Israel per se.

Many disagree with the politics of Israel and are embarrassed by it. Then they get so frustrated when all are put in the same box as "the Jews". Then they get the blame for politics that they disagree with.

Some forget that some Palestinians are Jewish, Christian or atheist.

Even in Hebrew, the word "Is-rael" means the Holy Land that we live on. The rock strata’s in geology are sometimes known as "raels" in Archeology in that part of the world, showing chronology of time.

Australia is a sacred land too to Aboriginal people. It is increasingly sacred to many of us who are non-Aboriginal since settlement. That does not mean that we worship the land. It mearly means "the sacred land we live on".

That could be anywhere on the planet. In civilisation, no one should be dispossessed of his or her land. I don't know if I am out of school here, but to many Jewish Australians, this is their Israel.

What land? Who owns any land?

If there's one thing I'm really tired of it's all those ethnic groups calling themselves "The Australian XXXXX" etc. If you're Australian then leave these ridiculous groups where they belong, in the past.

You create ghettos, ethnic, physical, mental and geographic. Choose to live in them if you will but don't blame anybody but yourselves for your ignorant non acceptance of the life you could have here.

All you do by clinging to such historic angst is to carry it through generations. Give it to your children, they'll be ever so grateful to you.

Get off the bandwagon and start treating all as simply people. If you want to display your personal opinions in your dress or appearance then do be ready for the responses. Usually people look because you look ridiculous in our climate.

People who look at you are not racist, biased or otherwise anti anybody. It's you who search for this and of course you find it. Usually though when you do find it you are standing in front of a mirror. That's right, it's you, whingeing about bias and racism.

Give it a rest for any deity's sake.

Chirping and Muttering by false prophets who "mouth sweet words the king wants to hear" will end up on the historical scrap heap. Be thankful that there is no Elijah around to deal with them as he did in the 'Gool ol days' (400 prophets of Baal and 450 prophets of Ashteroth executed)

To put ALL Israel/Palestinian discussion in the correct perespective you must examine the most highly motivated people and entrenched, canons of historical orthodoxy on both sides.

GENESIS 13:15 "all the land you see, I will give it to you and your descendants forever" (G-d speaking to Abraham)
How long for ? 4EVA!

HAMAS Part III article 11

[The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.......

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.]

COMMENTS: Notice the
-status "Islamic Waqf" (google it)
-Duration "Until the day of resurrection"
-Unchangable
-ESTABLISHED BY FORCE (Glad they admit this.. Muslims are constantly saying they only fight defensive wars)

So... an Islamic Waqf was established by FORCE and now.. shock horror an Israel/Zionist entity is established by...FORCE.. gee.. now can anyone spot the bad guy here ?

The phrase "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" comes to mind.

There is no point or value in addressing the idealists, romantics, sentimentalists ideas.. they would be subsumed by the "Islamic Waqf" mob or the "Zionist" mob.

It boils down to whether you have a Chain gun or an Ak47..(Humanly speaking)

David

So why do Israeli Jews denounce the policy of other Israeli Jews?

Don't the agree with you?

Dear Keith
very simply.. most Israeli's are secular. I don't think I've ever argued differently.
In both cases of the Palestinians and Jews.. its the likes of Hamas and the Orthodox Jews who cling to the 2 polarizations I listed in my previous post. Large numgers of Jews.. mostly settlers, support that view. (which is why they settle on what others term 'Palestinian' land... to them its Abrahams land. or in reality G-ds bequeethed to Israel for eternity)

Personally, I gravitate to the Israeli/Genesis understanding of the 'land title'.

As for those Jews who criticize others about government policy, and prefer some kind of negotiated solution involving compromise, I honestly think they either have no clue about the foundations of Hamas, or they are simply in denial about it.

I doubt many secular Jews have taken the trouble to educate themselves on the real Islamic mindset.

You can see from Sganot's posts that he takes a different view from me it seems. Steve tends to place more weight on such things as 'UN version of Human Rights'.
Logic is another Jew who seems to not place much weight on the Genesis promises.

BOAZ, The Genesis promises are a lot of BS written by a Jew(s) to justify the Zionist cause, as is most of the OT.

If the secular Jews had any guts, they would speak out and tell Leibler and his Zionist mates where they stand, but the trouble is all in the power of the purse and the Zionists have control of the money, so the dissenters are somewhat emasculated.

Everyone prays and talks about "Peace", it will never happen in that part of the world. All discussions are just political ploys to extend the status quo until Islam - the primary aggressor - is subdued in the Middle East (and the world).

Like it or not, Israel is the good guy (gal?), an extension of “the west”. The presence of fanatical blood thirsty Muslim majority governments surrounding Israel is the cause of all regional tensions.

Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is very unfair but absolutely necessary. Any alternative action is not possible as it disadvantages civilians in Israel and put them at great risk of terrorism.

Islam – a false religion – is claiming Israel as their god-given (Allah) bounty. Islam, wanting to acquire a religious significance, has appropriated Christian and Jewish holy sites, traditions, biblical accounts, even prophets, as their own.

According to Islam, Jesus - whom they call “Isa” for no apparent reason - is a Muslim prophet, a Jihadist par excellence, who on his return will fight with Muslims against Christians and Jews, destroying all crosses, killing pigs, and finally establish Allah’s Sharia law…(humorous but truly believed by all Muslims).

Jerusalem was never on the Meccan Mohammad’s radar, and was not even mentioned once in his Qur’an. But today Jerusalem is part of Muslims most cherished holy sites.

I agree with Boaz David – Biblical history is the only reliable source for land ownership. The Qur’an is no match for reliability or truth. Islamic claims to Israel have no legitimate religious or historical grounds – except the result of barbaric conquest by the might of the sword under false religious pretence.

Palestinians (including Christian and Jew) are the unfortunate victims of Islamic tactical world domination aim. By keeping their neighbours, their own brothers and sisters in perpetual suffering on the Jewish land, Muslims continue to allege unfair treatment and to lobby for world sympathy.

Instead of helping Palestinians economically, oil-rich Arab States finance jihad, terrorist governments, and the strategic worldwide expansion of Islam.

It's time the table is turned and the truth is revealed.

What a heap of CRAP

David

It is the Israeli Government that sells the Palestinian land to the settlers. It's not a case of the settlers just arriving at their chosen spot.

Their Government sold them the stolen land.

That's what many Israeli Jews are criticising. That was going on long before the founding of Hamas. Hamas is only a smoke screen used to deny or hide the Israeli war crime.

What compromise can there be? It's simply stolen Palestinian land that needs to be returned before peace can be attained.

You didn't answer my question. I'll not repeat it. You, as is the wont of the Israeli cheer squad when faced with realities they don't like, fudged.

Coach

Many of us, while we abhor all the violence, no longer think Israel is the good guy. Israel is certianly not a Western Liberal Democracy. It does not support the ideas of freedom and individual rights as we westerners.

On the basis of your argument you'd be able to put a good case of justifying the holocoust.

Oh and that table is turning and if you had any thought for the long term future you'd be seeking a peaceful resolution...now.
You see your statements scream a support for 'spoils of war' as a justification for Israeli's occupation and land stealing activities.
Now if the Palestinians come to dominate the region and start stealing selling and settling Israeli lands you will not be able to cry foul because that is the policy you show you support. I on the other hand would be as critical as I am now, and I'd be consistant.

Thankyou Anthony. A gracious acknowledgement that not all is well in the land of the self-declared chosen ones.

Sorry to be the one to tell you DB, but only crackpots take Genesis literally.

Thankyou Anthony. A gracious acknowledgement that not all is well in the land of the chosen ones.

Sorry to be the one to tell you DB, but only crackpots take Genesis literally.

Zionism is not the only set back that Jews have but their Messiah complex that many of them hold. Zionists are the worst though.

Zionists are war mongerer's who hold western foreign relations captive within their small little world of Middle Eastern dominance. Their craving to expand Israel's borders can only be accomplished by having western nations completely flattern surrounding Arab nations.

Zionist or not, people are growing tired of the thinking that you can't even disagree with a Jew without being attacked as an anti-semite. Most of these Jewish peoples aren't even of the same bloodline of the Jews of old who mostly died out long ago.

Keith,

It all depends which snapshot of history you are contemplating.

Israel has existed on that land long before the word Palestine appeared in their vernacular.

So it's a matter of rightful ownership. Don't believe all the stealing and selling stories.

When the nation of Israel was re-created in 1948 - Palestinians sold their homes to the new settlers, believing that in a short time the new Israel will be defeated and they will move back in their homes again. That was never to happen.

My point above is that Islam is the new (arrogant) kid in town. Coming from the far land south of the border - claiming ownership of what was never theirs.

Historical and Archaeological accounts confirm Biblical truths about the land of Israel (Palestine) belonging to the Jews for thousands of years before the Islamic invasion after Mohammad death in the seven’s century AD.

Persia (Iraq) and Turkey was once 90% Christian and Jew, and so was most of North Africa, are you sure you want to debate racial cleansing with me?

oops look at the time. got to go...

cheers.

I think Israels behaviour has been disgraceful. However, so has so many other countries, so they are not alone. Mr Loewenstein work is a way forward to normalising Israel. Every country needs its critics to mature and grow into a worthy world citizenship. At this time Israel is a long way from being that. In the mean time we should acknowledge the plight of the Palistinians and well as continue to encourage couragous Jews, inside and outside Israel who are prepared to speak up for justice.