I'd say it's less about the issue of newsworthiness than it is about the difficulties of reporting rape cases.

Victims can never be identified, nor can any facts that would identify the victim.
The opportunity for the journalist to speak with the victim, or get any facts of the case outside of the usual cautious channels are all very circumscribed.

If a journalist cannot obtain or print the information, the story will be low on detail. If a story is low on detail, then it can't be given prominence.

Obviously I can only speak from my own personal knowledge and can't therefore make assumptions regarding other media chains: but a newspaper for whom I once worked expressly instructed its writers that rape cases were not newsworthy unless a small child (i.e. under the age of 10) was involved, or - though the obfuscating language made this difficult to interpret at first glance - a question of ethnicity was involved. This applied to both male and female rape. And to every media outlet owned by the parent company.

And before the usual crew come baying in and turn this into (yet another!) anti-feminist thread with the usual side-paths into domestic violence, their own relationship woes, conspiracist theories and back-lash inevitabilities, I wish to point out that both I and the author mention male and female rape. The fact that rape is usually regarded as a crime against women is because - and there is no way round this - more women than men are the victims.

Therefore, though I am confident that this will be completely disregarded, the point being debated here is how the crime of rape -no matter to which gender it pertains - is reported.

And yes, though there are difficulties with identification etc. there are ways round this. Details are not impossible to access though it is perhaps the time and effort needed to do so for an article which a reporter is going to have to fight to get published, that deters many.This issue is in fact one of the many reasons for which I resigned.

Helen,

Good observation there about 'ethnicity' whiteness' 'community' and 'responsibility' and the media's huge appetite for demonising 'Aboriginality'.

My other observation is this –

The banal and erotic voyeurism of the 'black brute', constructed as licentious and uncontrollable - has always been a media favourite.

Jimmy Blacksmith
Marbuk
Mike Tyson.
OJ Simpson…

King Kong is perhaps the best representation of this fear?

the list goes on.

Cheers

Romany,
"And before the usual crew come baying in and turn this into (yet another!) anti-feminist thread with the usual side-paths into domestic violence, their own relationship woes, conspiracist theories and back-lash inevitabilities, I wish to point out that both I and the author mention male and female rape. The fact that rape is usually regarded as a crime against women is because - and there is no way round this - more women than men are the victims."

"and there is no way round this - more women than men are the victims."
This is not a true statement. It would have been fairer for you to say more women report rape than men.

Yes you were generous to have mentioned male rape. The article focused on female rape. Those are the numbers focused on by society because they are the numbers women manufacture to perpetuate the anti-male, anti-father, "man bad" climate feminist desire.

"Only when rape makes front page news whatever the ethnicity of the rapist, can we begin to talk of justice under the rule of law for its victims."

There can be no justice concerning rape/sexual assault or date rape, as long as it is available to women to use as a tool to defame an innocent man and the woman face zero consequences for their actions. Like wise there can be no justice for domestic abuse nor parental child molestation cases as long as women can use these accusations to frame an innocent man and the women face zero consequences for their actions.

In one report I read -68% of reported rape/sexual assault is false accusation and a tactic of revenge. "To teach him a lesson." 42% of the 68% 0f the total allegations are proven unfounded prior to any courts involvement.
In one report posted by the Washington Post June 27, 1992. Of 1842 reported cases of rape from 1990-1991 in Washington D.C. 439 of these cases were proven unfounded prior to a courts decision. "One woman said she lied because she needed an excuse for having being late to work."

I'm going to disagree with one sentiment from this article, and that's the final one:

"And it should not be only their community that needs to look at itself and take some responsibility for the actions of its members."

When a muslim man rapes a woman, it doesn't make all muslim men responsible - same for aboriginal, or white, or whatever colour you care to name.

It really isn't a matter of individual communities taking responsibility for the actions of a few of its members. Our society as a whole needs to look at why these individuals commit rape and do everything in its power to prevent future occurrences.

If our current system of punishment was effective, these violent crimes would simply no longer occur.

There are currently programs being trialed in selected neighbourhoods in the US which have high rates of violent crime. Children are being taught empathy and respect for others in school. They're being encouraged to look at other people and put themselves in their place.

It's going to be a long time before we'll know the results of these trials but I'm encouraged by the fact that they're happening.

aqvarivs, even if you take out 42% it seems unlikely that men gat raped in the general community more often than women. I've never seen any stats on the rate of rape in prison but if the stories you hear are true that might make a big difference.

The article is about female rape, unlike some other articles it did not seek to dismiss the harm suffered by men. The author acknowledged that men do suffer rape too. I'll stick my two bob's worth in where an author finds it necessary to dismiss all men to support their topic but the approach the author took to that seems quite fair. What's your gripe?

On the perception of racism in the handling of rape trials - possibly but my impression is that it is often about gang rape rather than the colour of the rapist. The more high profile rape cases in recent times seem to have involved gangs of particularly nasty perpetrators (sometimes the skin tones of the victim appear to be a significant factor). There is one quite public inquest going on now involving a group of males with what appear to be pale complexions.

Bradley John Murdoch does not look like part of an ethnic minority (not a rape but that might have been the plan). The descriptions of the bikeway attacker on Brisbanes northside seem to indicate an anglo and the media covers that.

There may be an element of racism involved but it may also be that sensationalism sells papers and vicious gang attacks are more sensational.

R0bert

I wonder if Helen felt that Catholic Priests special attention by media was unwarranted or out of balance. Though no one really knows the figures the percentage of offenders is very low (one is however to many). It would be interesting to see how many doctors or teachers who offend and yet rarely make the news. I am in no way defending the Catholic Priests and am not a catholic myself but I imagine being from the left that Helen would be happy with as much media coverage as possible in certain cases.

There has been serial rapist and perverts attacking women in Brisbane. To their credit Channel Nine and the Courier Mail have given extensive coverage. However, I also noticed that there was a fair few blogs on the CM's blogspot (I didn't see any published in the CM proper) asking why the CM and Channel Nine offered little coverage for the annual Reclaim The Night march.

Aqvaris says: "68% 0f the total allegations are proven unfounded prior to any courts involvement." Why do you always deflect attention from the issue when it involves abuse of mostly females? Why are you trivialising the seriousness of the problem addressed in the article?

Rape cases often don't proceed to court because of the difficulty of proving beyond doubt the offence. The evidence has to be overwhelming to get a conviction or even to proceed with criminal charges.

Gee you just have to look at the Hurley case to see that. Unless the rapist admits the offence or is caught in the act the chance of a conviction are very slim. In your doubtful example you say that 68 percent were "unfounded". So what you are saying is that these people confessed to making vexatious claims. Therefore you shouldn't have too much trouble digging up the numbers of those convicted for making these supposedly false allegations.

Why do you place such value on the words of people that are supposedly proven to be unreliable? Of course because it supports your apparent belief that rape victims are just evil feminists trying to make men look bad.

Or is it that your cynical opinion of victims of rape and your obvious neo-conservative approach won’t allow you to consider the possibility that the victims didn’t want to proceed because of the trauma of years of court cases? Or is it that the police (you are talking criminal proceedings aren’t you) DPP didn’t have enough evidence. This is usually the case when things don’t proceed and is that somehow this has been interpreted as being “unfounded”. Often rape victims don't see justice? Editors consider this trauma when reporting.

RObert and ronnie,
Let me reiterate for you the crux of my post.
"There can be no justice concerning rape/sexual assault or date rape,(and I'll add here sexual harassment) as long as it is available to women to use as a tool to defame an innocent man and the woman face zero consequences for their actions. Like wise there can be no justice for domestic abuse nor parental child molestation cases as long as women can use these accusations to frame an innocent man and the women face zero consequences for their actions."

The "statistics" I gave were to represent how rape is dealt with, how the "stats" are manufactured and reported. How many reported cases are false? Why are mens names reported in the news but, womens are not? Why when the allegations are proved false there is no retraction and public apology in the paper to restore that fellows good name? Why this one sided approach to rape?

The article wasn't just about "womans rape" it was also suggesting justice. Well... there can be no justice with out the truth. If you honestly want justice you can not demand spin control and manufacture numbers to create an exaggerated condition. Truth, honesty and justice are inseparable. And there will be no truth or justice as long as those who control rape statistics have a one sided approach and maintain only such numbers that benefit their cause. And news papers should not report rape/sexual assault cases until the courts are finished with them.

One woman raped is one woman too many. Conversely one man falsely accused is one man too many.

Well gee, aqvarivs, what is the solution?

I'm the first to admit that our legal system is not perfect, but would argue the following

1. An alleged perpetrator escaping charge does not NECCESSARILY make them innocent

2. The legal system cannot put an end to false accusations by members of the public. It can make the penalties for false accusations severe. But let's be clear that anyone could accuse some one they know of rape in a social context and there would be very little the legal system could do about it. However, men or women making these claims with no basis in truth would pretty quickly find themselves ostracised by their peers and community - and sometimes more than the one accused.

3. It is the responsibility of a victim to tell the truth about the crime they allege has been committed against them, but it is not their personal responsibility to assemble a case against the perpetrator. That is what the DPP is for. If every victim of sexual assault (or burglary, for that matter) had to establish a strong evidence-based case for the allegation to be taken seriously, we'd all be on CSI.

I agree that it is absolutely devastating to all concerned when a false accusation is made. But I'd argue also that there are very few victims of sexual assault who treat it with the lightness that you attribute to the woman "running late for work".

I'd also point out that sometimes people's view of what constitutes assault can be very different, leading victim and alleged perpetrator to an almost insurmountable schism in their understanding about the alleged attack. But it is the law that makes the ultimate determination in regard to reported sexual assault, not the victim.

What disappoints me about these discussion threads is that there seem to be a heap of people out there who seem to take the position that a false accusation is as bad as or worse than a violent rape. I think if you asked most people what they'd rather experience, the choice would be pretty clear.

seether, I've not been the victim of either but I'm also not convinced that a false accusation is any less harmfull than a rape. The level of violence is a factor in the harm which makes any judgement difficult. Both impact in different ways and both can have long term impacts.

I suspect that the level of harm (apart from the physical) is massively impacted by the victims disposition, the type of support they get etc. A false accusation can leave the victim isolated from their support networks, cost them job and future career opportunities and leave them with the sense that they will never fully move on from it.

Both are horrors which all of us should reject.

R0bert

Hi RObert,

I agree with you that people's resilience in either case is dependent largely on the kind of social support they have around them.

I guess I'm not arguing (either) that a false accusation isn't bad. I'm just not convinced that it's as bad as being raped. And I guess I'm reacting also to the idea that this is something peculiar to women (and angry that the same people who say rape doesn't only happen to women ALSO claim that it's women who use alleged rape as a weapon against men). Let's not forget that it isn't only women who use false accusations as a means of revenge: it's the basis of the Black Shirts harrassment of the new partners of their former wives also.

Additionally, I'd argue that there are lots of communities where speaking out as a victim can have all of the similar kinds of consequences that you describe - social isolation, psychological torment, suspicion, fear and hatred, and a similar level of frustration, in the sense that the only thing that sustains people in that circumstance is that they know they are telling the truth.

It's probably surprising to no one that I have a similar problem with people who use the term "rape" as a descriptor for things that aren't anything like it (some Government minister once likened meeting with his state counter-parts as being "like a pack-rape", which of course, it was nothing like).

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my comment. I am thinking about it.

It is very important to read what one cites. The Washington Post article is concerned with why a particular area in the US has a much higher percentage of "unfounded" allegations than the national average. It does not present the percentage of "unfounded" allegations as typical but as a puzzle to be explained. The article also points out difficulties in comparing statistics across jurisdictions that use different criteria of "unfounded" – which is why I have used inverted commas around the term, to indicate that while it includes false allegations, it also includes other circumstances (eg alleged victim's failure to proceed). But of course, fraud and perjury are extremely serious matters and need to be addressed whatever the sex of the person perpetrating them. Thank you for the comments on the article! helen

Aqvaris said: “There can be no justice concerning rape/sexual assault or date rape, as long as it is available to women to use as a tool to defame an innocent man and the woman face zero consequences for their actions. Like wise there can be no justice for domestic abuse nor parental child molestation cases as long as women can use these accusations to frame an innocent man and the women face zero consequences for their actions.”

Aqvaris this is obvious irrational thinking and sexism against women? You apparently think that women are the only ones to make vexatious claims against innocents. Defamation is about destroying reputation and you spend a lot of time deflecting from the main focus. Ironically, Aqvaris does so here by a rather sick group defamation of women. Lawyers also use privilege of courtroom to defame rape victims.

So to balance things “There can be no justice concerning the rape/sexual assault or date rape, as long as it men use rape as a tool to control women and then defame an innocent women to excuse his actions and the man face zero consequences for their actions. Likewise there can be no justice for domestic abuse nor parental child molestation as long as men can use these accusations to frame and innocent women and the men face zero consequences for their actions. “

Aqvaris your gender assumptions about women, especially, rape victims leads you to believe a doubtful presentation of stats and that rape accusations compares to actual brutal rape. Moreover, this supposedly widespread use of rape accusations to frame men doesn’t stop men from using public spaces - particularly after dark. Will Aqvaris’ defamation of women lead to accusations of rape being more readily dismissed?

But more importantly Aqvaris, RObert et al show what women are still up against in society. It is clear that certain men cannot stand that discussions on problems like the article covers tend to focus attention exclusively on women. So they howl: “What about meeeeeee!” This is petty and miserable behaviour.

Write your own article and address your own supposed problems?

It is a shame that this article has sparked sexist responses that do not relate to the topic. Yes there are woman(and men) who are raped, but never get justice. Yes there are men(and women) who use the rape card to cry wolf, yes this causes problems when trying to level justice, quantifying blame does not pose a solution, however, nor does it tell us anything we don't already know. No doubt, this same narrow minded attitude stems from a desire for superiority and control, which is probably the essence of what causes some humans to think they can commit rape in the first place.

Helen, there are many "savage and contemptuous" crimes that do not make the headlines of newspapers, for varying reasons, not only rape. However as mainstream news mediums essentially provide sensationalism to attract readers/viewers to achieve profits for their shareholders, not provide justice to rape victims, I don't have a problem with this. Perhaps the legal system needs to be scrutinised here instead as surely your goal is justice for rape victims, not publicity.

ronnie's peter

It is rational to expect that the whole of any situation be discussed and that if measures are to be taken that justice would be across the board.
If a man is to be punished because a woman can simply claim rape/sexual assault. That no evidence need be brought forward as proof. That papers are allowed to report unfounded charges of rape/sexual assault. Use the man's name, but protect the woman's. Men being guilty until proven innocent. That women hold no responsibility. All of this on one side and the actual cases of rape on the other. And the authors suggestion is that what the situation needs is more reporting. As in "Only when rape makes front page news whatever the ethnicity of the rapist, can we begin to talk of justice under the rule of law for its victims."
This you proclaim by argument is the highest form of justice.
I suggest that it is you who is irrational. Your every manoeuvre is to
perpetuate victim hood and continual anti-male sentiment and vilification.

The rest of your argument is an ad-hominem attack and specious.
The emotionalism that you put forward in place of reason does not put
me down. I have no gender assumptions other than the basic assumptions
of physiology. My concern is genuine and not indifferent to actual
instances of rape. And yes. One injustice equals another. That you
cannot see or refuse to understand shows the depth for which you
actually understand human indignity and suffering. To put female
suffering above male suffering is an inexcusable indifference.
And your little game of turning around my post. Yes. absolutely. I agree. I also think such crimes ought to be met with equal punishment. Rape and a false claim of rape be treated equally. Equal number of years in prison in both cases. Your two faced. I am about equality. Equality across the board and at no ones expense. Except the guilty

Is Geoff saying some rapes should go unreported?
I heard him hang up on that reporter and wondered why?
Rape is always evil and while Australian medea is not unlike any western medea, not to be trusted in my view we have every right to read about such evil.
Now why do I not trust our medea?
Those working in the medea have only to watch the decline in print medea in NSW to see the answer daily.

ronnie, you are getting rather tiresome with your pathetic attacks.
I have continued to try and deal with you in a manner that has been much more polite than you deserve but that seems like a waste.

In which of my posts on this thread did I "So they howl: “What about meeeeeee!” This is petty and miserable behaviour."

Time to grow up. What is your issue?

Your one sided approach to gender violence perpetuates the harm.

R0bert

Hello seether and Robert

I know of one person who committed suicide due to the stresses that impacted their family and working life after a false "sexual harrassment" accusation. I know that the acuser has suffered considerable mental torment also, two lives lost. I am sure there a number of suicides annually that relate to either of these unfortunate occurrences. So yes the impact of false accusation can be as severe as being an actual rape victim.
There are anomalies that undermine every single individual view that has been presented in this debate, the truth is the issues you discuss will not uncover an answer and is therefore a mere exercise of hot air blowing and chest beating.
The flawed sociological climate created by humanity is the root of all these problems, but we aren't going to solve that one overnight.

I wonder, if a study was conducted on whether, mass publicity of rape impacts on the actual instance of that same crime, what the results would be? I suspect in our baaaa society the impact would be detrimental to the cause. Unfortunately the media are our shepherds and this is very dangerous to humanity. I suggest we all treat them with contempt and take nothing they provide too seriously.

Belly
Distorted and unresearched publicity of these crimes, especially before a trial has even occurred, presented to the general public for consumption, cannot possibly have a positive impact for anyone concerned. Furthermore, it is a downright frightening concept, but alas, it is the world in which we live.

Hey, Robert? I have already said my piece on the subject at issue and made it clear what I think of a media which considers that rape - of anyone - is not important.

But re Ronnie's comment: you and I are usually at odds but I admire and am appreciative of the fact that you always strive for objectivity. I read Ronnie's comment in the same light as you did the first time and was therefore surprised that you were bracketed with Aquarius.

However, on a second scan I wondered if perhaps this was not a punctuation problem? That what she intended was more: "Ok Aquarius - Robert and others have tried to point out to you....etc. etc."? In this reading she is including rather than excluding you in the rational and objective camp. Until she posts again and clarifies perhaps you could consider that? I - and I am sure others - read your posts thoughtfully and respect your opinions whether or not we share the same viewpoint.

There are times I'm sure we all get fed up with trying to be reasonable and just want to join the ranks of those who descend into personal invective and childishly irrational b/s. But hang in there yet a while, mate; it might just be a misunderstanding.

• Citing a recent USA Today article, discussing the miracle of DNA and
FBI studies of sexual assault suspects, DNA testing exonerated about 30 percent to 35 percent of the more than 4,000 sexual assault suspects on whom the FBI had conducted DNA testing over the past three years.

• In the FBI’s Behavioural Science Unit’s study of False Allegations
conducted in 1983 of 556 rape investigations, a total of 220 (40%) of
these reported rapes turned out to be false. Over one fourth of these
556 turned out to be hoaxes.

• Linda Fairstein, who directs the prosecution of sexual assault in
New York, says that there are approximately 4,000 reports of rape each
year in Manhattan. Of these, about half simply did not happen. Says
Fairstein, “It’s my job to bring justice to the man who has been falsely accused by a woman who has a grudge against him, just as it’s my job to prosecute the real thing.”

• In New Zealand, police officials have stated that 64 percent of rape
reports are false and that some women are making a business out of being raped, collecting sometimes up to $10,000 compensation per case.

• The FBI stated that in 1990 over 8,500 of the rapes reported proved to be false. False reports of child abuse were twice that figure.

I see woman and men, husbands and wife's, and children devastated by both actual and false accusations of rape/sexual assault. I see the personal devastation in mental health, physical health, and spiritual health of men, women, and children under these circumstances. I know the truth through working that environment each and every day. Young children. Young adults. Crack whores. Mothers. Husbands. Sons. Daughters. I know from experience both men and women commit rape. I don't choose one over the other. I don't devalue one sex or the other. In my world both men and women deserve care. Especially the children.
False accusations are time wasting and a drain on my resources to assist those men and women in need. It's criminal.

Why would people be surprised at the high levels of moral hazard detectable, while provisioning such significant resources in support of one gender against the other?

Romany, I hope your right but find it unlikely. BTW as far I'm aware Ronnie is male - some other posters seem to find it amusing to call Ronnie a girl but I think they are just trying to upset him because of a suspected patronising attitude towards women.

I'm still trying to work out where Ronnie is coming from on some of this stuff, on most issues I've very much enjoyed his posts but we lock horns quite strongly on gender violence issues. From some of Ronnie's earlier comments I think that view is (or was) mutual.

Thanks for your comments, I find discussion with those who see issues differently to myself to be very beneficial if both sides are willing to listen and learn as well as share their own perspectives.

One of the great joys of OLO at times is the people I get to have discussions with (and one of the frustrations).

R0bert

I am aware of at least one case where, at trial, the 'victim's' story didn't ring true in the Crown examination: so the prosecutor herself 'went after' the truth from the complainant. The result was an acquittal.

I also know of a case where the complainant went to the police only after her boyfriend (not the accused) heard about the sexual contact some months after it occurred when the boyfriend returned from overseas (where is was during the sexual activity). Result was an acquittal, but it still cost the accused a large amount in legal costs.

I am also aware that a huge number of assaults go unreported.

so, what do we do about these instances?The complainants in each of the above?

Perhaps hand it back to the judges to decide, after hearing the evidence, and verdict, that if, on the balance of probabilities (the 'civil standard') that if the complaint was made vexatiously to award costs to the accused, and depending on the circumstances to award those costs against either the suitors' fund, the crown or the complainant themselves.

This is similar to the 'Clarke' matter, where is the plaintiff (note - not the complainant) had lost she would have had to pay the respondent's (not the 'accused's) costs. The respondent of course was in a difficult position, as it would have been hard for him to settle without some admittance of guilt, exposing him to the possibility of criminal prosecution.

I would be in favour of both the accused and the complainant's identities in sexual assault trials being 'not for publication' until after the trial. It should be noted that, at least in NSW, an adult victim of sexual assault may be identified in the 'Remarks on Sentence' by a judge on sentencing of a prisoner.

May I suggest that the prominance of the coverage of Geoff Clarke's case is not so much the fact that he is aboriginal, but that he is someone in power, a public figure that is well-known. Putting a spin of race on this is to cover up the reason for the coverage and the reason for the outrage - this is someone in whom we are expected to have trust. Did we not lose a WHITE governor-general for his role in the cover-up of sexual assaults?? This type of coverage is purely about public judgement of the wrongs of those who would seek to hold our trust and esteem. I am sick of the cry of "racist" to try to excuse anything.

The issue of the impact of false allegations of rape on the accussed is an important one but not really on topic for this article.

I've submitted a proposed discussion on the general discussion page for this sub thread. Hopefully that will be up later. For those interested I'm starting it off with an extract from "The Myth of Male Power" on what happened to Glover Gale.

R0bert

Just out of curiosity, and bearing in mind that stopping rape would be a good thing for any community, is there any way that the average woman can stop a bigger and stronger male from rapeing her?

R0bert, I disagree. Any article that begins,"The 1996 Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) Women’s Safety Survey, for example, estimated that 18 per cent of women had experienced sexual violence since reaching the age of 15. The results of the 1998 ABS Crime and Justice Survey of women’s experiences of sexual assault indicated that more than 47,300 incidents of sexual assault had been perpetrated on about 30,000 women from across Australia in the previous 12 months. These results are consistent with other surveys taken before and since that time.", can not be left to stand as authentic if the facts of the matter are otherwise.
Helen Pringle speaks of justice and rule of law both at the beginning and the end of her article. Surely one may expect that Ms. Pringle is sincere and would not want to be seen as "trying to slip one over" on the readership of OLO. I don't know if Ms. Pringle is a feminist. She may just be reprinting the only Stats she could find. Under those circumstances I too would wonder at the lack of reporting considering the numbers quoted. Especially the 13,700 who by the numbers were raped more than once during those twelve months.
However, if one is concerned with justice and the rule of law. A premise based on false data has no merit. Then it isn't an expansion of the original premise to consider the validity of such numbers, and is appropriate to highlight where that difference lies. Otherwise the article becomes a cry for the hyper reporting of all accusations whether they be true or false. Is this the intent behind Ms. Pringle's article. I fervently hope not. If it is, it has absolutely nothing to do with justice or the rule of law or rape/sexual assault. And then begs the question. What is the hidden agenda behind such an article?

R0bert, (damn word restrictions)
In as much as it is near impossible to remove the impact of rape/sexual assault on any readership faced with such numbers as 40,700 reported cases of rape perpetuated on 30,000 women over a 12 month period. So is it near impossible to remove oneself from the impact of the possibility that more than 50% of those allegations may be false and that with in that same 12 month period 20,350 men have had their lives, reputations, family, and incomes irrevocably ruined.
Anyone remotely interested in the truth, justice, and use of law in these circumstances would want close observation and detailed data collection on rape/sexual assault, and for such data collection and correlation to be removed from the machinations of politics of either side before being allowed to influence the creating of law or sentence punishment. Not to mention unrestricted hyper reporting of all allegations prior to being dealt with in a court of law.

aqvarivs wrote, in parts:

"Helen Pringle speaks of justice and rule of law both at the beginning and the end of her article"

and

"I don't know if Ms. Pringle is a feminist."

what I would suggest is that you take a look at her information that is 'attached' to her name as the hyperlink in the header of this article, and follow through to her website.

Before we comment on people it is important that perhaps we look at the information that they themselves give us before blundering around in the dark, so to speak, commenting on a persons character and ability.

(I have studied under Ms Pringle, she is no man hater, and she needs no defence from me.)

It also means that we must look more closely at how we define people. What is a 'feiminist'? Is is someone who so hates males that they are "separatist" or consider that all males are evil? Or is it someone who considers that power in relationships have often been at the expense of women simply because they are women.

This actually comes back to the article: what was the 'power relationship' between the plaintiff in the Clarke case and Geoff Clarke, when the rape actually took place (we can say that now because a jury has agreed that it happened) and even more so now, a woman without means and power confronting a man with prestige and influence, and I wonder who will be paying his legal bills and damages?

A male community leader who claims that no one is safe?

Safe from whom?

Safe from being held accountable for their past actions is what he is really saying.

aqvarivs, I'm not sure if you are talking about the proportion of false claims or the impact on those so accussed. Both are important issues, I've chosen to start another thread to discuss the impacts of false accusations on the victim.

Is Mise, I suspect that the police (or other organisations) have some personal safety advice available. For the sake of discussion I'll toss in my 2c worth.

Treat it like any other personal safety issue, try and avoid the need to fight your way out of a bad situation. All of us should be free from threat's to our personal safety but that's not the way the world is unfortunately.

As an adult male who is over 6ft I still need to make choices about my personal safety.

I've been directly threatened in public places a couple of times where I was seriously scared, once by someone with a knife and another time by a guy with a racial chip on his shoulder and some friends nearby.

If I'm attacked the attacker may be bigger still, a better fighter (not real hard), armed with a weapon or part of a group. There are places and times where someone walking alone is at greater than normal risk of being attacked - I try and avoid those places and times.

There are choices in clothing and accessories which might place me at risk in some places (who wants to get killed because somebody liked your shoes). I don't flash around things with theft appeal if I suspect that doing so places me at greater risk.

I don't choose to hang out with people because of their tough image, if they disrespect the basic rights of others then mine are at risk as well.

I don't torment others for recreation or otherwise unnecessarily provoke them.

Most of those can fairly easily be translated into strategies to minimise the risk of rape. No guarantee's but then who of us has any real guarantee's about personal safety.

R0bert

Aqvarius - you were right first time: the second para. of the article cited the number of reported sexual assaults. Not rapes.

R0bert,
My apologies for my error in post part2 for the numbers I quoted. They should have been "-more than 47,300 incidents of sexual assault had been perpetrated on about 30,000 women from across Australia in the previous 12 months."
My point is that no matter the numbers. How high or how low. If the actual numbers and methodology used to collect those numbers and by whom they are collected/supplied is/are suspect. Then using them to highlight the severity of the situation and promote what I can only define as hyper reporting of accusations can not be consistent with any call for justice and the rule of law. Especially if that "justice" or "use of law" is decidedly one sided and meant to be punitive before the evidence has been before the courts for a decision. I have no interest in seeing the social/sexual divide promoted by such feminist/women become a defensible right for women. I have enough trouble at work trying to heal and bring families back together as it is now. Crowbaring that divide further does not seem productive to male-female socialization.

Romany,
Thanks for the heads up. In my defence I would like to say that I am no longer sure of the difference in representation of rape vs. sexual assault. The courts seem to have migrated any difference in the original understanding to a now all inclusive. And the media uses one over the other to promote the most "shock and awe" not to identify circumstance.

Aqvarius - If you type "sexual assault of males" into google 85 pages will come up. I specifically ask you to qualify it in this way so as not to leave a door open for bias. You'll find the definitions of rape and sexual assault spelt out very clearly on hundreds of different sites.

You'll also find reference to literally thousands of books, papers and linked sites which are not feminist sites but which deal with this topic.

On the first page alone you will find hundreds of references to where statistics concerning rape and sexual assault are gathered: gynies, G.P.'s, Departments of Justice, FBI, anonymous surveys, men's groups,Criminology Departments, psychiatrists, psychologists, police departments, Universities, crisis centres, help lines, Scotland Yard, Lawyers, child protection units, et.al. One of very useful and pertinent site is the Australian aic.gov.au site.

{p.s. What does the phrase "heads up" mean? I'm not taking the p*ss, - it really is a term I haven't heard before and so I'm curious.}

The term 'rape' went out of legal use in Australia some time ago, replaced by such terms as 'sexual assault' and 'aggravated sexual assault'.

Therefore you will not find statistics on 'rape' anymore. The old legal definition of 'rape' was genital to genital contact, penetration was not required, and this obviously left many forms of severe sexual assault not defined as 'rape'.

Another term you won't see much any more is buggery: yes, it was a legal term, however offences of buggery committed before the laws were changed are still changed as such.

In terms of newsworthiness, I am of that age that I can remember every act of armed robbery being reported on the TV, radio and in the newspaper. Nowadays these offenses are so common that they only rate a mention is someone is killed.

Unfortunately sexual assault is just so common in this society that it is no longer newsworthy, it comes under the category of 'dog bites man' rather than 'man bites dog'.

Which is why the Clarke case is important. It has brought into the public view a crime that most people don't bother thinking about these days. It is, due to its cause celebre a 'man bites dog' story, that is, the victim, after decades, fights back. We need cases such as this, and the case of the homosexual older man being accused of killing his young victim, currently being played out in the NSW Coroners Court, (let alone the Brimble matter) to prick our collective consciences.

Romany,

Thanks for the heads up equates to, thanks for showing me what I may have missed. In some hard ball sports the cry "HEADS UP" is a warning that the ball is off it's intended course. Like in golf, when they cry "FORE".

I would like to second Hamlet's post. In as much as by my personal and professional experience I have to say that there is no comprehensive data collection for honest rape/sexual assault stats. While one can find much on the internet and access Govt. sites, and Feminist sites, and Masculinist web sites, and even some private or legal web sites; there is much variation in the numbers and a very large concern about how those numbers were collected and or skewed to advance a particular agenda.
When you work as I do, having to battle social/sexual agendas and political maneuvering, becomes frustrating and in the end only leads to stifle or throw up road blocks to any good work in repairing individual suffering, and the suffering that complete families must endure. The great loss is the redirection of monies and energy that would benefit those in need. Taking sides and playing the blame game is never going to contribute to resolving sexual assault issues. It exacerbates them, but that is an other truth best left to a further discussion and thread.

RObert your bias in favour your own viewpoint is just unbelievable. You can't see it but others can. Why don’t you and especially Aqvaris make a big song and dance about those who have been violently raped and why so silent when their genuine complaint of sexual assault or aggravated sexual assault is dismissed as false? Moreover, what of those women who proceed to court and the lawyers get an acquittal even though the woman has been violently sexually assaulted? Hasn’t her reputation been degraded?

And then there are those who rightly claim rape but then retract when they realise the almost impossible odds of getting a conviction. Not to mention the unwanted publicity of having the newspaper naming a person as a rape victim. Then there are the police who resist proceeding unless the evidence is pretty well beyond doubt. Don’t you think a person ruthless enough to rape a person wouldn’t hesitate to lie or get a witness to support his lies? Aqvaris seems to think that police proceed on mere accusations. Just ask any John Law (policeman) how hard it is to convince a brief manager to proceed.

Romany may regard you, RObert, as objective, however I see that you are letting something get in the way of your objectivity. Keep in mind here that it is my belief that no one (myself included) can be totally objective.

RObert I notice that you were quick to rationalise around to your own schema Romany’s apparent “gender expectations” for mistaking me for a female. You say that calling me a girl is just a wind up. Why? - because only real men agree with your ideas on such gender issues? I think the posters who, for instance, reckoned I was female have betrayed their “gender expectations”.

continued

continued

Both you and Aqvaris were wrong, I think, to push your own barrow on this thread. Why do you guys, seeing as you want equality and objective reporting, only seek after stuff that damages the reputation of women? There is plenty of information on women's sites that show the appalling rape figures and lack of justice for women victims.

Also when I skimmed through i notice you folk typed in "rape". You would have come across some pretty horrendous sites then. Tell me why these sites are allowed if society supposedly give a toss about women's safety - because the biggest men's group is the Government.

RObert thanks for making the other post. But what a naf comparison? Shows what women and victims are up against.

ronnies peter

People as yourself who advocate special laws and special understanding with in the law in order to perpetuate your own feminist bent do more social damage. Those who champion real equality across the board for both sexes are the last hope of stopping the sexist woman empowerment of female victim/man evil pendulum from it's most certain backlash. How you can find the gall to consistently attack men of good will in favour of an ideology that is in it's execution manufacturing if not producing to some extent, but surely a contributing factor of the number of cases of rape/sexual assault.
How people like you can be so intellectually ignorant and socially blinded by your need to maintain the sustained and bitter railings and condemnation of men in general to not realize that your "get back mentality" and one-sided sense of social justice leads to further cases of rape/sexual assault, not fewer.
The changes in the law championed by feminist are designed to place men in a position less than equal and in many cases in the context of Family Law, second class citizens.
Now. In some areas wiser minds are coming to the fore and improvements and changes for the better are being made, but that is no thanks to people who think and advocate a one sided approach as yourself who continue to manufacture victims to your alter of feminine social sexual dominance. No truth built upon a lie will ever stand. It matters not if there are 50,000 rape/sexual assault cases a year or 12. If more than 50% are false it's a fair question to ask where the BS stops and the truth begins. I find it very telling that you don't want the light of truth shining on this subject but, would rather use it to further bludgeon men in general and have laws pass that would jail a man with out evidence or a courts hearing.

Aqvarivs said:

“ I find it very telling that you don't want the light of truth shining on this subject but, would rather use it to further bludgeon men in general and have laws pass that would jail a man with out evidence or a courts hearing.”

I haven’t “bludgeon[ed] men in general”. I challenged certain posters who beatup their own interests to deflect attention from other people’s articles and people who think that most rape is just women making up stories. You spend a lot of time trying to discredit feminists and turn back the gains that they have worked hard for. I find that appalling.

I pointed out to Aqvarivs that your figures must be wrong because in Australia the legal system is such that it is nigh impossible to even get a case into court let alone, according to your misunderstanding, merely make an accusation and then Constable Care wanders over and locks up the accused – what rubbish. I said, for instance: “Rape cases often don't proceed to court because of the difficulty of proving beyond doubt the offence. The evidence has to be overwhelming to get a conviction or even to proceed with criminal charges.”

What I have said here in relation to police requiring very solid evidence to charge an offender Aqvarivs somehow translated into me wanting to “pass laws that would jail a man with out evidence or a courts hearing” . This was false and misleading.

Also Aqvarivs the police have a media unit which usually send out media releases.

The author told us of a very terrible rape. It was to show the extreme hatred and malice this male had towards women. Now, even though this rape could have been taken up as symbolic of male hatred towards women she was at pains to point out that men like that are not representative of all men. Your response is to get straight into negative politicking and accuse women of making false accusations and suggesting that it’s some sort of a free for all apparently because you think police rubber stamp complaints

ronnie peters,
First, I would like to thank you for taking the time and for showing some common respect this post to get my on-line-name correct.
Secondly, you're somewhat misinformed. In the absents of physical evidence all a woman has to do is be in the court room at the time of trial. The Judge knows she's there and her side gets a point. She doesn't even have to be called to give evidence. The Crown will read her statement into evidence. The weight of her testimony/evidence and any countering testimony/evidence from the accused determine the outcome of that particular trial. Each and every trial is judged on it's own merits.
Rape/sexual assault is not something, at least forensically, that can be hidden. There is something called a vaginal clock. Doctor's can tell the difference between consensual sex and forced sex.
The courts system is highly challenged by the number of accusations of rape coming from women who wish to punish their lovers, boyfriends, husbands for some other "injustice".
The number of women getting raped for a walk in the park is very rare by statistical evidence. The greatest number of rape/sexual assault accusations come out of ongoing sexual relationships. Apportioning justice in a she said he said event, is no simple matter for any Judge, male or female.
And from what I have seen, if you are a female and using sexual assault to punish your lover for some misdeed, your best under a male Judge. The female Judges strike back with less sympathy for the sex.
One woman raped is one woman too many. One man falsely accused is one man too many. I questioned the authors use of "stats" as a way to highlight the case and to broaden the issue. I questioned her assertion of any interest in the equality of justice and the rule of law.
If you really want to ask a copper something. Ask how much time they spend running down blind alley's trying to help a liar, some one trying to manipulate the system.

Aqvaris,
“Doctor's can tell the difference between consensual sex and forced sex”

While not disputing your main argument.
I would really like to see the above challenged by a quality lawyer.

Even consensual sex of a prolonged or vigorous nature can leave the woman sore/injured

Horus, "Even consensual sex of a prolonged or vigorous nature can leave the woman sore/injured"

Yes it can. However, I doubt many women who enjoy men to that extent are going to run to the police to file a complaint.

At least not directly. :-)

Aqvarius - you said that doctors can tell whether the sex was consensual or not.

Does that mean they can actually tell whether a person has been held at gun point or knife point just by looking at a person's genitals?

Or that they can by the same method determine whether a person has been told that if they don't give in or if they scream their parents/children/spouses will suffer?

Or that they will be killed/maimed/stabbed/beaten if they struggle?

In that case then how could any false charges ever be laid?

Romany, if it's not consensual everything else is rather moot to the point don't you think. Does it matter if a man is raped at gun point or knife point? Does it matter if the little boy is molested by his baby sitter or his school teacher? That he's told that if he screams the other boys will think he's weak, unmanly. That he will be beaten or maimed, or stabbed if he doesn't perform for her?
Does that mean no charges will ever be laid?

Aqvarius - you misunderstand: I was responding to the posting in which you said when mischievous charges are laid doctors can tell the charges were false by looking at the alleged victims genitalia. You were commenting on how much court time is wasted in 50% of all rape charges laid by women.

I was marvelling at how evidence from the "vaginal clock" - which I had always thought (erroneously it now appears) could only provide information as to approximately how much time had elapsed since semen was introduced - could be used to prove a charge false?

How, in fact, doctors definitively provide enough evidence to dismiss a charge and state empirically that no coercian, threats or intimidation had been used - simply by examination of the genitals?

Damage can be done to the vaginal area during rape, yes, but it is not necessarily a sign that rape has or had not happened.

From my memories of court cases it seems that when a woman is inexperienced she is less likely to tilt her pelvis in such a way as to avoid injury, therefore an inexperienced woman / girl is more likely to show signs of injury than a woman with enough experience to be able to tilt her pelvis.

This is not to say that the rape of the 'experienced' woman is in any way less criminal than the rape of an inexperienced girl or virgin. That is not what I am implying.

In terms of semen, this is not a good indication either way when it comes to rape, as many rapists now are using condoms: mind you the stupid ones don't discard them in a hurry, and are sometimes caught out by their DNA contribution being on the inside with the woman's on the outside when the condom is found. Anyway, ejaculation is not required for a rape to be a rape. What semen, whether inside a condom, or inside the woman, can show is that sexual contact has taken place, particularly where the attacker denies contact with the victim.

Medical evidence can be useful, but as with all evidence it must be placed in context, in a matrix of other evidence, both physical and of witness testimony. Medical evidence, of itself, cannot prove or disprove non-consensual sex between people over the age of consent.

At no time did I represent the forensic use of the "vaginal clock" as THE determining factor in establishing rape. The vaginal clock doesn't have anything to do with time but, suggests a "normal" or forced act of sex in physical examination relative to the areas of injury.

From my every work a day experience with men and women and children of violence I can assert with out worry of contradiction that one of the most time consuming, and waste of money, and wasted emotion, and unnecessarily physical and mentally taxing efforts is that time dealing with liars and manipulators of care facilities. That includes my military career, 10 years of emergency nursing, and these last 16 years of community outreach.

I'm always disappointed with those people who want to use numbers to exacerbate the truth of any situation to drive an agenda. Especially when it's done on the backs of those who truly are victims.

If for example, 4,000 rapes are committed each year in Australia. That is a genuine issue of concern and requires study into the whys and wherefores. And if at the same time 50-60% of these cases are false accusations by police reports and trial outcomes, (and all the numbers are configured for miscarriages of justice where the guy got off scot free). That is also of equal issue and concern. And requires study into the whys and wherefores.

The math is very simple, if 4,000 women say they were raped and 50% are proven false, by extension, that means at least 2,000 men are victims of rape. That makes rape a issue of equal concern for both sexes and both equally victimized.

That there are those feminist and others who want to down play this and suggest that it is two separate issues don't really want to investigate, or find solutions, or even resolve some of the mitigating circumstances or conditions that go into creating the totality of the issue. They only want to finger point and demonize and create a sense of one-sided victimization and moral self righteous superiority for their sex.