I agree that the Howard government cynically outsourced employment services in order to cut costs. Small, mostly under funded, agencies are cheaper to run and easier to get rid of than the now absent CES that had to abide by all the rules of public service. I also agree that it was wrong for the churches to leap at the chance to get involved in what they saw as an important public work. What they did not know was that in doing so they simply became the servants of a government who had less of an understanding of social justice than the churches and that the churches now had to punish its clients for not fulfilling their side of the bargain. Some are regretting their actions. It is not healthy for the churches to be so under the control of the state.

While this is the background of Jocelynne’s article she has put a different spin on the situation by playing up the nonbeliever/believer polarity and insinuating dark motives to the churches. This is a rather strange take on the situation. It proposes that ones belief or unbelief is important when we consider who has our personal details. Should I a Christian worry that the secular state has my personal details? The real issue here is that the Howard government has reneged on one of its key duties and given them to a variety of organisations who work for a fee. The problem is not that they are churches, we have good reason to believe that they are mostly more honest that secular businesses, but that they should not be in the business in the first place.

Playing the religious/nonreligious card does not help the argument.

Jocelynne, thanks for the article. I certainly agree that government continues to abrogate its responsibility to care for the most vulnerable in our society.

At the same time, I'm also a little concerned by two particular statements which you make and I would like to know a little more about the background behind them.

The first is your statement that "They [the unemployed] are at the mercy (sic) of the Salvos, Anglicare, Mission Australia, Centrecare and all those other profit-making arms of the Christian (sic) churches in Australia." I wasn't aware that the organisations you have named were 'profit making' but thought that they were registered charities. Are you suggesting that the organisations you've named are profit-making?

The second statement is, "Privacy legislation now applies to the private sector. However, how many of these job providers know this, and honour it? Even honouring it, what do they do with the information anyway?" This is a rather serious allegation - are these organisations illegally contravening privacy legislation? If you have evidence I certainly hope that you report it!

I suppose with unemployment close enough to an all time low the author needs to find something to be picky about. I always thought the dole was a privilege not a right. Where is there any evidence that any of these church groups have used this 'highly confidential' information for any reason other to try and get these people a job. The Government over the last 30 years has shown that it is incapable of preparing many for work. Yet another article with a Government is better than private tone and yet with no results to match arguement.

As a non-Christian, I found Jocelynne's article to be nothing but crud. Surely she could have found a better way to use her hysteria against the churches.

When the CES was abolished, I was very happy for I remember the CES where most of the jobs were taken, those left were only for Vietnamese and Chinese. Majority of the employees did not care about the unemployed, some of them hiding behind their pathetic union to refuse to work.

By outsourcing these resources, we have actually seen a better system develop, freeing up sources that actually help the unemployed. The Howard government has done more for the unemployed than the ALP ever did.

Spider,
Yes Howard has got more people into lower paying jobs than ever before.
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the Churches or private enterprise runs these services, as I see it they should be run by the government. Privacy, is there anyone left who believes that anyone in this country has any private details?

With the amount of government and private intrusion into our daily lives someone knows the last time we went to the toilet. Many families are really struggling under the Workchoices law, lower pay as indicated by two falls in the average weekly earnings since its introduction, thanks JWH.

Do I want my personal information held by a religious organisation for five years? Well no, but it is a matter of total unconcern to me if it is. Presumably similar information is held by religious organisations who run hospitals on individuals who have been their patients. If this is the worst we have to worry about them we do truly live in utopia!

Jocelynne, interesting article, however I think you may need to research your subject material a little closer.

I manage a 'church-run, church-backed and church-controlled' (as you put it) agency in a rural city. (Anglican Church, and no, I'm not Anglican) The various programs we run deal everyday with confidential, personal information, entrusted to us by our clients. (Most of whom are young people, and most of who have little or no interest in any Christian church)

My staff have very specific rules and guidelines on how this information is obtained, used and stored. If you believe that 'the church' has access to this information in any way, I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. If a minister, bishop, the Pope (okay, he's Catholic...) or indeed any member of any Anglican congregation wanted access to information on my clients, they would have no more access than anyone else who walked in off the street.

I'm also concerned about this comment...

'the churches, keen for income and profits as, it appears, is standard form, came in at a rush.'

Could you for a second, even entertain the thought that the churches see helping the poor, the under-privileged, the unemployed as a social obligation and responsibility, rather than a profit making venture?

This good article, plus comments from some like "Sells", convinces me that it is high time for atheists and agnostics to form their own movement, to counter the inroads of church into politics. Sells and others suggest that churches are more honest than business. Really ? Remember the scandal over the Vatican Bank ? remember the generations of child abusers protected by religious hierarchies in spite of protests from numerous victims ? what about the current shenanigans of the Exclusive Brethren ? Did Sells come down in the last shower or what ? why are religions of all hues so obsessed by sexuality and reproduction/ abortion/ homosexuality that they have forgotten to oppose unjust war and to promote peace and love ? Please Jocelynne lead us into a humanistic and non-religious future with no hypocritical cant.

Kang writes 'convinces me that it is high time for atheists and agnostics to form their own movement, to counter the inroads of church into politics.' Please open your eyes to the fact that many or most of our universities and other government organisations were hijacked by agnostics/athiest decades ago.The point is that they failed miserably which has led for those honest enough to turn to those who can make things work. Organisations that run without any ethical values are bound to produce the results that our public schools churn out today. That is why many of the agnostics/athiest insist on sending their kids to religous schools. Can't argue with results!

thanks for the article jocelynne.

I would be truly unhappy if the Anglican dioscese of Sydney or the Catholic Church or an Islamic organisation could keep all my details for 5 or so years.

BradA is niaive to think there is any assurance of privacy of information when its decentralised out to a myriad of welfare organisations. How can you be sure that a casualised workforce in the "employment industry" won't keep copies of records for their own gain? I am amazed at how many begging letters I get from charities whom I don't contribute to, in a 3 week perion in May it was 75 letters. How do these charities get your address, I no longer leave my address on raffle tickets and have told the bank not to onsell my address.

Jocelynn is right to point out that outsourced Commonwealth Employment Service functions have become successful money making enterprises for families of politicians on both sides of politics.

A most interesting article: There is no evidence that religion and religious people are more honest and moral then any other group. A point well made in Richard Dawkins book “The God Delusion.” In fact there are many areas such as childcare where religious institutions have been guilty of criminal activity. Who can assure us that the churches are now up to standard, and like Cesar’s Wife beyond reproach!

Let us assume that if two individuals with religious association “a” and “b,” are assigned to the religious body “A” of which “a” is a member. What is the betting that “a” will get preference over “b?”

That it is a church contracting is probably the least of anyone's worries.

If the community was really aware of the variety of contractors who have access to their information over time they would be really concerned. Then there is the sub-contracting by contractors to consider. Usually the only assurance that the confidentiality of client data would be maintained is an agreement to this effect. Audits are rare and where performed are done by (you guessed it!) contractors and they know who signs the cheque, so they are not going to embarrass their public sector senior manager.

If anything, the outsourcing of former public service responsibilities is recognition that the senior managers in the public service are less than competent or efficient. Yet so often the same senior managers are required to select and manage the private contractors. Then there are the 'partnership' links between various contractors and crossovers of function and interest.

All things being considered the Salvos might seem a 'safer' proposition than some of the global entrepreneurs and their sub-contractors who have much better access to data collected by government and a much higher turnover of staff.

It’s a shame about its anti- religious prejudice, but the article raises an important point about the limits to government’s scope to delegate its authority.

I’m generally all for privatisation and contracting out if and when it delivers better or cheaper services that direct government provision, and I suspect the church groups probably do a better job than the old CES.

BUT, I believe there are certain powers that governments should not delegate, and among them is the power to coerce. This can occur when a ‘client’ has no option but to use a particular service, or when a service provider exercising government-derived authority has more control and sanctions over the community then other person-to-person or business-to-business relationships. I oppose non-government agencies’ involvement in policing the requirements for receipt of unemployment benefits for the same reason I’d oppose privatisation or contracting-out of prisons, police services, the army or tax collection. It confers on non-government agencies privileged and inappropriate power over their fellow citizens.

The fact that the service providers happen to be church groups is immaterial.

The Howard government has outsourced employment services because employment is not a real priority. Everyone knows that the real figures for unemployment are much much higher. Not the 4% that is being touted, more like 11%. this is because the definition and classification is based on a person deemed employed having to work just one hour per week. Non profit organizations means non payment of tax. The fact that these multi million dollar industries pay no taxes means they make profit. The catholic church is known to be one of the biggest multi nationals on the planet. The Salvation Army by it's very name and with the promotion of its magazine War Cry promotes war. Those that are glibly proclaiming that there is no harm that church organizations that make profits keep private individuals records just show how far this country has gone with little expectations of the implementation of laws. Privacy laws.

Howard is just trying to outsource responsibility for the long-term employed and get somebody else to take the heat for the imposition of harsh Centrelink penalties for non-conformance. There are already some cracks starting to show in this arrangement.

Ultimately the private organisations are in it for profit and personal information is a valuable resource so why shouldn't they find other uses for it? If not on an organisational level then there must be a few cunning individuals out there that will find a way to make a dollar or two with the information.

Nevertheless, going by past practices, I wouldn't trust some religious organisations to look after my children so why should I entrust them with my personal details.

The more we come to depend on the government to manage our lives the more or greater the opportunity for our personal information to become publicly accessible. The more government is asked to do, the higher the taxation. Don't want taxes to increase, outsource. The more we come to depend on private institutions to manage our lives the more or greater the opportunity for our personal information to become publicly accessible.

No one is tracked more than the internet user.

Don't worry Dr Jocelynne A. Scutt this is organised religions last gasps. The secularisation of religion project is nearly finished at least in the western world. Phase two the middle east is underway.
:-)

Kenny:

And we should be deeply disturbed by this phenomenon !

Vengeance is theirs.

Those of us here concerned with a lack of privacy should be more concerned, no, angry with what Howard is going to do with the new Medicare card. For those who don't know, all of your information be it your d.o.b., the medication you take, etc will be sold off to Pharmaceutical companies. This big business will hold ALL of your personal medical information.

Now, shouldn't we be more concerned about this, rather than whinge about a non-government organisation helping people find employment?

Spider I am very interested in knowing more about the medicare information being sold to pharmacuetical companies, where can I find out more?

billie,
Maybe I can help with your problem of where all those beggers are getting your address.

Are you in the 'phone book?

billie; Not sure of best link. Why not try Civil Libertarians, AMA, media, non-government member who is elected to serve.

Shonga; ofcourse Howard has created more low income earning employment. They are low income because there is more of them. I hope you're not one of those who are managerial top heavy.

There are three certainties in life, Death, taxes and Religious groups persecuting outsiders.

Giving private details to religious organisations is a witch burning or inquisition waiting to happen. A number of police officers and doctors have betrayed their office in this country making decisions based on their sectarian beliefs. A few notorious court judges in the United States have also passed judgements not based on law but based on religious ideology. Tony Abbot contracting out pregnancy advice not to health specialists but to superstition peddlers demonstrates the loyalty to the cult before the welfare of the citizen. Handing over control over women’s bodies to superstitious cult based organisations is even crueller and increasingly morally corrupt when the Catholic instigated Nicaraguan solution for rape victims is considered and the welfare of Australian women (Our Daughters , Wives , Sisters , Mothers) are handed over on a silver platter. Religious organisations seek to exploit our children by pressuring to teach the complete lie of intelligent design. Religion has no respect to those who are not the self. God belief is in essence self worship the deification of the ego often exploited by a craftier individual.

If I was a single parent , homosexual , had an abortion , of the religious sect not to eventually grab power, of certain other religions , of certain races , even if I was female, a child , an elderly person with money or assets I would be very worried that cult based organisations had that information. Persecution is almost guaranteed as the imperative of religion is to gain power over the population and the individual. Religion needs and thrives on enemies. It is the source of most conflict of the world and it is one of the most divisionary forces within society.

In the mean time the question is rather how can a superstitious person act professionally? Their loyalty is to the commands of their ruling clergy not the constituent, not the nation. We witness this with David Hicks, if allegations are true prepared to fight for god rather than be loyal to Australia.

I would support a universal health card with medical details , medicare transactions and prescriptions. Such a card could contain other information such as updated bloodpressure tests outside of the health care system and serve to lower health costs.

What is going to happen eventually once an ID card is brought in is the card will do everything from charging GST for leaving the front gate , to clocking on at work. With smart scan technology the card could scan other cards and record who you had come in contact with , how long you spoke to them. Companies could know exactly the food we buy and we could be tracked by satellites to record our every movement. Our beliefs and even our genetic make up and our consumer habits may help determine our suitability for a job. A smart scan card could register the time you spend at certain places within your employment.

Of course the black economy that the GST breathed life into will boom even more than now. It will also be a golden era for organised time.

The most common health complaint registered on ID cards will be Identidy Anxiety :)

The cure for Identidy Anxiety will come when the economy collapses because like the Soviet Union found out only too late , spying on the population is a waste of resources with decreasing returns and spiralling costs.

Runner wrote: "... they (agnostics/atheists) failed miserably which has led for those honest enough to turn to those who can make things work. Organisations that run without any ethical values… produce the results that our public schools churn out today."
Runner, are you seriously touting the churches as being run ethically? Do you really believe that theism generally leads to someone having morals &/or ethics? Do you honestly believe that being secular precludes a person from having morals &/or ethics?
As far as "failing miserably" goes, I'm hard pressed to think of something that's failed more miserably than religion.
Also, given that politicians are the ones who decided to outsource the service in question, I can only assume that you're extolling politicians as "those honest enough". If that's the case, I hate to burst your bubble, but politicians are hardly renowned for their honesty.

While the academic results of public schools are worse than those of religious schools, a sensible person would have to agree that it probably has more to do with the schools' ability to generate extra revenue than it does with religion (IE: Religiously denominated schools are generally able to afford better teachers because they have higher fees).
Further, I personally believe that the fairy tales of a god who refuses to live by his own doctrines, being peddled by people of (particularly Christian) religious persuasion, is far more detrimental to our society than people having to work on their own personal development later on.
I, for one, am happy that atheists have "hijacked" our academic institutions & governmental agencies.
Would you really prefer a good Christian head of state... like, say, George.W?

Runner also wrote: "Where is there any evidence that... church groups have used this 'highly confidential' information for any reason other to try and get these people a job."
I haven't found any such accusation in Jocelynne's post. To me, Jocelynne's post indicates that there's the potential for churches to misuse the information... & - to answer the question I posed earlier - no, theism does not quantify someone as ethical.

A VEILED ATTACK ON CHURCHES by the Author ? nope..its a full frontal assault.

DID she mention where any "profits" are likely to go ? Lets take one, the Salvation Army. In my area, there are 2 notable church run sites and both are dedicated to drug and alchohol rehabilitation. A farm and another youth camp place.

"Profit" going to worthy social causes NOOOO we can NEVER have that..can we ?

I suppose when I see the caretaker of the Saly rehab farm rolling up for work in his BEAMER.. I'll start to have worries about where the funding is going.

I can't speak for the other Church run employment agencies, but I'll hazzard a guess any 'profit' certainly does NOT go to renovating the Bishops Mansion (..if someone can show me such evidence I'll stand beside you in condemning that Church action. I don't like the Anglican idea of a "ArchBishops Mansion/palace" anyway..its a contradiction of Scripture and "He would be first among you should become the servant of all"

SECULAR EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES are also out there, in DROVES but to read the article you would not believe it. So, the black hand of 'anti Christian rant' is rearing its ugly head and basically destroys any credibility the article otherwise might have had.

Its about as credible as me asking the Author "Are you Jewish and from Hollywood" ? ! with the implied insinuation.

The End.

incubi, from what I've seen the short term results look better for the religious schools but once students move out of that environment into tertiary education they tend to fall behind students educated in the public system (less spoon feeding).

The public system also has it's average impacted on by the fact that they cater for a wider range of students. The privates often don't have facilities to deal with kids with behavioural issues (easier to not accept their enrolement or ask them to leave) where as the public schools have to deal with those kids (except in the most extreme cases).

There are some exceptions to this with some religious schools having good reputations for helping kids with behavioural issues but generally they don't bother. Likewise they are unlikely to have the kids where the kids are only at school because law requires it.

I don't think that there is reason to believe that religious schools give better educational outcomes, rather their average results are based on a more selective sample.

R0bert

R0bert is right. This issue concerns me as there are no real quality controls on private schools. With the right management it makes no difference wether a school is public or private the children will get a proper education. Public schools do have an advantage because their primary focus is education whereas many (be clear on this 'not all') private schools primary focus is on profit. Private schools at the end of the day are buisnesses.
Private schools should be scrutinised as public schools are , we really do not know how well they fare.
Another dimension is the socioeconomic. It does not matter wether a child goes to private or public it is the attitude toward education that the parent has which makes all the difference. As parents we have taught all our children to read before they started school. If a child gets through school with poor results the parent must shoulder much of the responsibility.
Some private schools have become dumping grounds for problem children who are education challenged because their parents think eduction is 100% the responsibility of schools.

West,
"Public schools do have an advantage because their primary focus is education whereas many (be clear on this 'not all') private schools primary focus is on profit. Private schools at the end of the day are buisnesses.
Private schools should be scrutinised as public schools are , we really do not know how well they fare."

You got it a bit skewed there mate. Private schools depend on results to keep the money flowing and to live up to the clients expectations of "education in the real world". Private schools that focus on profits last perhaps the first semester. People may spend the extra money on private schools as a last ditch response to their child's behavior but, they also do it because private schools have the reputation for success. Some historically so. Mind you, there well may be fly by night private schools but, I doubt they impact over all educational performance city or State wide.
And private schools are highly scrutinized. And they welcome the scrutiny because it sells seats and brings in more money to hire even better teachers and build more wings to hold more students.
Students in private schools don't get put forward with failing grades.
And we do know how they fare because good schools have great reputations and entrance is in high demand.

I dont believe so aqvarius. I think the motivation that most people have sending their children to private schools is they see their childs education as a status symbol, keep up with the Jones's. I found it very difficult to find a private school that was actually interested in real education most simply offered gimmicks which are avaliable to the wider public more professionally and cheaper anyway. The other problem with user pay schools is everybody is a customer and have to be treated equally. I know people who have removed their Children because they were gifted and others because their children were slightly intellectually disabled because their needs were not met. I also now know quite a few people who have removed their children from private school because the schools become the dumping grounds for problem children and bullying is a problem. There is now the additional problem of religious based bullying from not only students but also staff. I would also be concerned for children at religious schools because to date staff screening has not been as effective as non-religious schools. Having said all that I am not against private schools , I believe there should be more stringent quality controls on them and an honest consumer advice system giving good information what the returns on the dollar are. If you are paying for a service you should expect guarantees.

West,

I grew up going to separate and private schools and I must say that my experiences are most definitely not those reflected in your last post.
I've had only a single public school experience and that was at college doing some pre-university studies after I got out of the Army.
The one difference I can attest to is that in my opinion public schools seemed to me more rampant with Marxist thinking(or at least my college).
Excuse over reason.
In public school I was asked if I could provide an excuse for my behavior or thinking. In Private school I was asked If I could provide reason for my thinking or behavior.
Private schools make no excuse for their self-perpetuated elitism.
Then again, if one wants elitism join the Army. :-) Lots of that there.

I think a problem with private schools is that in the future (and now) we will all be held captive by former students. If you apply for a job and you are not an old boy or girl you will get moved down the list; if you get beaten up by the local Catholic bullies -well the Catholics have their tentacles into the local cop shop and you will be on your own; if you do get an honest John Law who lays charges that officer will get transferred to the Valley Hell and the Prosecution will try to bully the officer into dropping the charge to conserve the reputation of the local private school; the tentacles of course spread into the media who will refuse to report on private-school’s damaging behaviour; public schools can be investigated and reported on because of public interest laws while private schools have lawyers coming out of their ears if you dare question their behaviour and if you go to court an old-boy Magistrate may be impartial; and if you get ill and go to a local private hospital you might learn the truth about the "Catholic drop" and how the private system can safeguard itself; and then like in Queensland you may end up with a Government that is very partial to Catholics and their network of private-school mates; ( A Labor State Member, a former private schooler has just announced that nearly a million of tax money is to go the a Catholic private school. There has been no investigation into the long-term effects of creating this two-tier system or whether or not local people will be denied choice because the public system is under such duress. Cont.

Cont. I question the morality of handing over public funds to what is essentially a private and discriminatory business. Also the reason that public schools have become out of favour is because the religious right have been unfairly defaming the pubic system for yonks now. I don't know how the private school peoples can live with themselves knowing that they are benifitting from negative politicing. The private school’s reputation is conserved by gthe network but there is a lot that is kept quiet and this is despite the fact that these private businesses are tax funded. I think private education is immoral because it is helping create a divided society and is developing a framework that will lead to a hierarchal and thus unfair society).

I think aqvarvis's attitude that private school children are elite and public school children are communist confirms your point Ronnie.

Saddly aqvarvis judges public school children as a subclass with the added irony of demonstrating an ignorance of Marx. I understand the Marxist comment was meant to be a slur against children who went to public school but aqvarvis do you understand that Marx described differences in capital and is the father of the modern share holding system as well as the theorist behind the corporation having the rights of a citizen. You may be more integrated with Marxist principles than you care to know.

I laughed when you said the army is elite. Get a grip the defence forces are a public service no more elite than the tax department or Centrelink. You gave me a further chuckle as the Army is one of the few public services run to a communist system. Before your neck turns true scarlet in anger , every millitary has to be organised as a communist system otherwise the alternative is a bunch of outsourced privateers, mercenaries.But elite , thats too funny.

Ronnie you are correct and may I add that the reputation private schools have are the reputations they self declare. Its often hollow advertising. There is no effective quality assessment of private schools. Many private schools run shorter semesters and shorter teaching contact hours and additionally many teach utter garbage such as religious studies or concentrate on beating other schools at sports. They are buisnesses and it is their perogative, education has become the poker machines for church groups. I only suggest there should be strict regulation to stop the rorts and to ensure that private schools are educating children. It is a mine field for parents chosing the right education provider for their children. Private schools cant regulate themselves because most of the parents who send their children to private school do so to impress friends or family with no interest in the welfare of the child what so ever. This means the gravy train is ensured. Governments have to step in and look out for the kids. Again Im not anti private school and unlike aqvarivus Im not anti public school. To me only the best education should be offered to all children.

West, if you have to attack me in your post or belittle my experience ok. I think I understand. However, I would appreciate that if you have any questions of what I mean or how I judge things please post the question directly to me and not infer that your perceptions are mine.
Probably a little something I picked up in separate school but, that's how I feel.
West posts:
"I laughed when you said the army is elite. Get a grip the defence forces are a public service no more elite than the tax department or Centrelink. You gave me a further chuckle as the Army is one of the few public services run to a communist system. Before your neck turns true scarlet in anger , every millitary has to be organised as a communist system otherwise the alternative is a bunch of outsourced privateers, mercenaries.But elite , thats too funny."

Talk about offering a laugh. I'll pit my 25 years of experience as part of the military, and a "special force" up against yours. The Armed Forces of the world are chock full of elitism. "Organized as a communist system". Oh, man. Sell that one down at the Legion. For the next month they'd be calling you sore arse. Ya, and we're Unionized too.

I am an atheist that have encountered the harm of religeon especially Christianity in my daily life. Promotion of child abuse, mistreatment of women, spreading of general ignorance like creationisim.

I was approached by Mission Australia fundraisers, they did not disclose their religeous component of their mission. I signed up to them for regular deduction. As I was previously homeless I gladly signed up.

I have leared today they not only evangelise, they discriminate against non-christians. I am cancelling my deductions.

As to claiming the agencies are non-profit, that is incorrect, they make a profit which goes to the parent body which can be spent evangelising.

I find "spider's" comment above incredible, because it is typical of the abuse of women (as hysterical) that one will find in those of a dogmatic mindset. How would anyone be sensitive to abuse of allowing a particular ideological group to have sway over those who are at their most vulnerable, when one is already so keen to abuse women as spider does?

Impartiality and fairness (not abuse) is one reason why we need the SECULAR PARTY OF AUSTRALIA.