Paul of Melb, I can only agree with you about a lack of constructive suggestions. But what works in one area will probably not work elsewhere. Have a look here http://www.tjanpiaboriginalbaskets.com or here http://www.keringkearts.com.au for a couple of successful community businesses in Central Australia. The money these bring in probably doesn't go anywhere near making these communities financially independent, but there are obviously a lot of other benefits.

RobbyH, my understanding is that some town camps are better than others (just like remote communities). Certainly some people are in town camps because of alcohol problems, but transients are always moving in and out. People from communities use them when they visit Alice, some to go on benders, others because they don't have anywhere else to stay (being poor and black). Town camps cannot be considered in isolation from the remote communities as peaople shuttle between them and they share the same problems.

One view of Aboriginal culture sees broken families, alcoholism, violence and despair. Another view is of an ancient culture with a deep spiritual relationship with the land, hardy survivors with a rich store of art, stories and knowledge. Both views are true, or rather, part of a larger picture, compex and changeable. Successful programmes cannot be developed by ideologues in Canberra and foisted on communities. They must start at the local level.

My personal knowledge of Aboiginal culture is superficial, gleaned from people I respect, who work with indigenous communities. However the glib cliches purveyed in Kirsten Storry's original article suggest she knows even less than I do.

Johnj, from an indigenous perspective you're away ahead of the pack!
Good discussion, keep going.

Rainier, Agree, good to discuss.

JohnJ.Agree mainly. Kirsten sounds very much like another city based armchair "analyst" who has met a couple of urban cowboys and swallowed whatever. Ignorance is bliss still apparently.

Again, must agree re being definite about any grouping, mass decision etc. Generalising is bad news, as you see I do it too. And yes, town camps certainly vary, not sure though how many accomodation stars would differentiate. Are there minus star scores for such??( Jest ).

The transients in those camps certainly vary and your observation I too agree with. To me one of their biggest problems is the fringe whites who move in and out, but that's just a side issue.

After many years trying to outgrow my childhood learned rascism (aboriginal specific mainly, thanks Dad!)I find it difficult still to speak without emotion on this issue. The main part I see often not mentioned is that while "we" constantly are both told and pay homage to accepting aboriginals, it seems quite rare that whites(generalising again) see that the aboriginal groups need to accept "us" whoever we are, whites etc.

It seems the focus is mainly on them accepting us when both sides need to accept each other before any progress can really occur. My opinion.

The hardest parts are the attitude over so many decades that whites have the answers and just don't understand why those "pesky" inidiginous people don't just cooperate. That approach/attitude simply ensures failure. If I may use Iraq, there as anywhere, similarly you cannot impose "democracy".

As Rainier said, keep discussing, who knows someone may actually listen to us! Even have some good suggestions too.

Apologies for not replying earlier (been away on holidays).

Firstly thank you Rainier for your kind words. Thanks also, RobbyH, I think we are on the same wavelength. You make a very valid observation on "fringe" whites in town camps. You also make very shrewd points regarding racism within Aboriginal communities, and the idea (held by Aborigines and whites) that whites have all the answers.

To be fair, white fellas have always been figures of authority, so Aborigines are accustomed to being powerless and reliant on the grace and favour of white authorities. It will take a LONG time to break this down. What depresses me about the original article is the idea that "after 30 years of "self-determination" and 10 years of "practical reconciliation, the terrible incarceration, health, education and myriad other statistics are confronting." The author conveniently forgets the 180 years of failed policies of paternalism, neglect and assimilation that preceded "self-determination". Unfortunately it looks like paternalism is back on the agenda, under the guise of "mutual obligation" or some such cliche.

A friend in Alice Springs works in indigenous health. When her co-worker (a traditional Aboriginal woman from the desert) is in Alice she stays with my friend, rather than with kin in the town camp. My friend is happy that she can provide a safe haven for her co-worker, but of course this erodes her co-worker's relationship with her kin. I don't know that there are any easy answers......

How many aborigines does it take to change a light bulb ?
What light bulb ? These people have no power ! .......
But how do you make self determination work when there is no real effort made to establish what the problems are ? And whose analysis will be used for understanding the issues ? And who gets to decide the preferred outcomes, the priorities, the strategies, how much money is needed, who gets to spend it ? Why is there no accountability ?
As a taxpayer, why am I expected to keep funding a Nil Result ? Why do we keep trying to provide Urban Australian solutions to Indigenous issues? Why do so many aboriginal people try to draw on the mainstream socio-economic model without properly subscribing to it ?
Why can't common sense prevail ?

I do think (for what it is worth) that different races need to "respect" each other, not necessarily intertwine with each other's fundamental belief systems. Following that I belief it improper and outright cruel to inject aboriginals with vaccinations for (not against) diseases which were contrived for the industrialised white folk's.
White's food supplies need to be withdrawn slowly with increase of local education of ancient survival techniques, before the "old knowledge" dies out. Those who were drawn to the cities for white education should learn all different dialects to serve their people.Bush-tucker made the aboriginal survive thousands of years, so their genes are made up for that kind of survival and food. White's psychology does not work either for non-whites as it doesn't even work for whites. Money is an exchange method which will only deminish survival for non-whites and whites have become slaves for it.Why do we as whites have the tendency to think us better survivalists than
aboriginals? We cannot even look at our own issues like excepting herbs and banning nutritious food and natural healing. Who the f... are we to think that this and /or that, is a good way for the aboriginals to live and learn?