Well...

you are absolutely righ.

But what is the conclusion?

We need solutions, not speeches.

Statements at such a general level, thugh asolutely right are of little use. Those who agree, will say 'well, that's right, we all know it".

Those who do not will brush it aside.

What we realy need is a focus on practical, resuts-delivering programs.

We need to put some effort into:
a) identification of programs that do work for disadvanteged communities.
An example of such can be found
http://communitybuilders.nsw.gov.au/forums/read.php?3,55113

b) we need to look for new, creative ideas that can put into practice the noble notion that we need "A hand up, not handouts"
An example of such an idea can be found here:
http://winwin.mishku.com/?page_id=25

We need more 'action-research' projects delivering real benefits for aboriginal communities, on which we could learn how to do it better.

Paul

Handouts?
What hand outs?

Aborigines have only been eligible for the dole since the sixties.

Before that they either starved in the streets, or went beggng for food at mission stations. Where priests gave them food and raped thier children.

"To open up possibilities for Indigenous Australians in remote communities to share in Australia's prosperity, we need to stop taking what Henry would call the "soft options" on education.

We need to reform the school system to stop education funding being wasted.

Greater autonomy for principals, evidence-based English literacy instruction, high expectations and better rewards for good teachers are an urgently needed first step."

Excuse me for repeating so much. Each and every phrase in this conclusion needs teasing out. For many years the Australian people have accepted that the "educational infrastructure" could be neglected by all governments. This has been marketed politically as "preventing funds being wasted" or the like. Australians are not really committed to a socially just provision of education.

Indigenous Australians will not share in Australia's prosperity until it is accepted as appropriate that that they in a meaningful way. It needs to become a fundamental right in the provision of education.

The educational "infrastructure" will need to be refurbished before those ill-defined prescriptions in the conclusion can be met.

In cynical circles it's called the Aboriginal Industry.

The Aborigines dont actually want to be helped they want to keep the big chip on their shoulder that says the white man
is the cause of all their problems and owes them everything.

Its a very lucrative industry moneywise. It allows them to swim and fish all day and sit around and drink grog in the parks at least up here in Queensland and on Palm Island thats what they do.

Why do we continually skirt around the real issues.

One of the reasons for poor literacy and numeracy skills in Aboriginal communities is that the kids will not attend school.

When you witness an Aboriginal child who is sufficiently motivated by their family members to attend school regularly where they have done well and subsequently become a member of mainstream society, you realise the biggest problem for Aboriginal kids is a lack of discipline by parents.

I am friendly with an Aboriginal woman who has been a widow for many years and no doubt surviving on a pension to support her 8 children. Every child has performed well at school, though it was a 70km round journey to attend high school. These kids now have satisfying careers, despite the disadvantages of being raised within such a large family.

Elders passing down an ancestral bitterness towards the white community simply contribute to breeding another generation of kids who have little desire to become part of mainstream society.

This is evident when we in regional Australia witness that kids truanting and hanging around shopping centres etc. are mainly of Aboriginal descent. Why? Do the parents know? Yes!

To continue with the "poor us" diatribe by dragging up historical facts on how Aborigines were treated is self-destructive. Every strong nation wrongly took a weak one in past centuries and each country has attempted to make amends despite the bureacratic blunders.

They must now help themselves instead of continually blaming "Whitey" for all their ailments. It is 40 years since this community was given equal rights and that is long enough to change an attitude of resentment towards the "invaders" and the stolen generation years.

For different reasons, white children were also stolen from their parents in those days though you don't hear much about that!

sharkfin, had you gone to the CIS website you might have noticed that Kirsten Storry has a "Bachelor of Laws and a Bachelor of Arts (with Honours in History) from the University of New South Wales and ,,,, comes from an Australian Public Service background, including time at the Attorney General’s Department, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Australian Law Reform Commission." As a cynic, I'd suggest that Ms Storry is a paid-up member of the Aboriginal Industry. I'd be interested to know what practical experience (if any) she has in indigenous education. And I'd certainly like to know what Ken Henry is qualified to speak on (outside of microeconomic reform).

I had a look at Ms. Storry's original paper, which may be found here http://www.cis.org.au/IssueAnalysis/ia73/ia73.pdf My own humble view is that it is a not terribly good literature review. Much better to go to the original sources, mostly from the Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research http://www.anu.edu.au/caepr

No question that indigenous health and education are a disgrace. But I have a nagging feeling that this is all about shutting down "remote communities". Having seen some of the town camps in Alice Springs, I'd say the problem is not (just) remote communities.

Spartacuss you do a grave injustice to the work of missions by describing Aborigines "beggng for food at mission stations. Where priests gave them food and raped thier children." Many, many Aboriginal people owed their lives to the work of missionaries. Some of them were abusers, but the vast majority were decent people who worked in abominable conditions to help others.

My first impression of this piece was its unoriginality;

Besides milking the 'self determination and handouts' rhetorical lines what else does it offer?

Nothing.

Kirsten is obviously enthusiastic about writing in this area and shows a familiarity with the literature and spin in Indigenous affairs news reporting over the past 10 years.

I give her 5/10 for effort.

3 of 10 for trying to adopt the genre.

2 of 10 for analysis.

How about a bit of constructive effort Rainier. Let us see an article from you with some practical solutions about how to solve the problems facing remote indigenous communities. It is not so easy, is it.

VK...

it is not neccesary to know "the road ahead", to notice that we are just running in circles.

If so much energy is devoted to unproductive discussions, there is not enough of it to talk about real solutions.

In one of the posts above you can find a link to a practical solution and to a case of a succesful project that did deliver change to a disadvanteged community.

The problem is that no-one wants to listen to outsiders; but if you look a the history of breakthrough developments they often came from outside...

P.

VK,
Actually I've published many times on this topic.
Unless you think newspapers are the only print media worth reading?

Sharkfin,

Perhaps the problem is that the endless money government's have thrown at this issue is always doomed because it too is done cynically? Apart from much of that money never reaching the communities.

Living in those communities and being given money at age 18 (think that's right) or choose to try and join the rest of us is in fact a big part of the problem. What would you choose after living in such a community since birth? Most choose to stay with their families and take the money.

Your generalising is a big part of the problem. You see what you want to see and it seems your knowledge comes from seeing only those people in your area.

I could generalise too, it's easy. Here's one. All drinkers are alcoholics. Stupid isn't it? Of course your generalisations are facts to you else you wouldn't be stating such in public would you?

Could I ask what else the people on Palm Island can do? Are you aware that this group of people are not one "people" at all. They are a gathering of people's from a range of tribes and communities, not "one race" as many think.

Could you please quote some references for your statement "they want to keep the big chip on their shoulder that says the white man
is the cause of all their problems and owes them everything."

If this statement was made in a court it would be dismissed as hearsay as that is what it is. It is not fact at all. It is a minority view. Again you have used a common generalisation to demonize all aboriginals. Good one.

Johnj. So you've seen the town camps in Alice. Are you aware of how those people got there and why they stay there? The answer is their communities have ejected and rejected them mainly due to alcohol abuse. They do not represent the people that live in remote communities in any way.

See post 2 below.

Apologies for the two posts but...

Those people you saw in the town camps are also rejected by the town. What can they do? What would you do? Yes they created the problem through alcohol abuse but in our cities we actually have help for people in these situations don't we? Alcohol abuse that is. Or perhaps we just generalise and state that all aboriginals are alcoholics, which is absolutely untrue of course.

Have any of you had the pleasure of visiting a remote community? Outback NT for example? I've seen many places around the world we describe in disgust as Third World standards and have also visited a number of the remote aboriginal communities over many years. They haven't changed since I first visited and I see little difference between those places and the ones I saw overseas.

Of course I don't have a solution. But continuing to blame each other and generalise can only entrench current views and the situations of both aboriginal and what Dickie refers to as "Whitey".

You can make a difference today by looking beyond what you think you know and trying to see both sides rather than "Whitey's" long term ignorance. By the way I grew up in Alice and had much the same view I see expressed by some here. Why? Simply because the town saw only those who do hit the pubs as soon as the doors open on "payday". And the resultant violence and disintegration of people and families.

Paul of Melb, I can only agree with you about a lack of constructive suggestions. But what works in one area will probably not work elsewhere. Have a look here http://www.tjanpiaboriginalbaskets.com or here http://www.keringkearts.com.au for a couple of successful community businesses in Central Australia. The money these bring in probably doesn't go anywhere near making these communities financially independent, but there are obviously a lot of other benefits.

RobbyH, my understanding is that some town camps are better than others (just like remote communities). Certainly some people are in town camps because of alcohol problems, but transients are always moving in and out. People from communities use them when they visit Alice, some to go on benders, others because they don't have anywhere else to stay (being poor and black). Town camps cannot be considered in isolation from the remote communities as peaople shuttle between them and they share the same problems.

One view of Aboriginal culture sees broken families, alcoholism, violence and despair. Another view is of an ancient culture with a deep spiritual relationship with the land, hardy survivors with a rich store of art, stories and knowledge. Both views are true, or rather, part of a larger picture, compex and changeable. Successful programmes cannot be developed by ideologues in Canberra and foisted on communities. They must start at the local level.

My personal knowledge of Aboiginal culture is superficial, gleaned from people I respect, who work with indigenous communities. However the glib cliches purveyed in Kirsten Storry's original article suggest she knows even less than I do.

Johnj, from an indigenous perspective you're away ahead of the pack!
Good discussion, keep going.

Rainier, Agree, good to discuss.

JohnJ.Agree mainly. Kirsten sounds very much like another city based armchair "analyst" who has met a couple of urban cowboys and swallowed whatever. Ignorance is bliss still apparently.

Again, must agree re being definite about any grouping, mass decision etc. Generalising is bad news, as you see I do it too. And yes, town camps certainly vary, not sure though how many accomodation stars would differentiate. Are there minus star scores for such??( Jest ).

The transients in those camps certainly vary and your observation I too agree with. To me one of their biggest problems is the fringe whites who move in and out, but that's just a side issue.

After many years trying to outgrow my childhood learned rascism (aboriginal specific mainly, thanks Dad!)I find it difficult still to speak without emotion on this issue. The main part I see often not mentioned is that while "we" constantly are both told and pay homage to accepting aboriginals, it seems quite rare that whites(generalising again) see that the aboriginal groups need to accept "us" whoever we are, whites etc.

It seems the focus is mainly on them accepting us when both sides need to accept each other before any progress can really occur. My opinion.

The hardest parts are the attitude over so many decades that whites have the answers and just don't understand why those "pesky" inidiginous people don't just cooperate. That approach/attitude simply ensures failure. If I may use Iraq, there as anywhere, similarly you cannot impose "democracy".

As Rainier said, keep discussing, who knows someone may actually listen to us! Even have some good suggestions too.

Apologies for not replying earlier (been away on holidays).

Firstly thank you Rainier for your kind words. Thanks also, RobbyH, I think we are on the same wavelength. You make a very valid observation on "fringe" whites in town camps. You also make very shrewd points regarding racism within Aboriginal communities, and the idea (held by Aborigines and whites) that whites have all the answers.

To be fair, white fellas have always been figures of authority, so Aborigines are accustomed to being powerless and reliant on the grace and favour of white authorities. It will take a LONG time to break this down. What depresses me about the original article is the idea that "after 30 years of "self-determination" and 10 years of "practical reconciliation, the terrible incarceration, health, education and myriad other statistics are confronting." The author conveniently forgets the 180 years of failed policies of paternalism, neglect and assimilation that preceded "self-determination". Unfortunately it looks like paternalism is back on the agenda, under the guise of "mutual obligation" or some such cliche.

A friend in Alice Springs works in indigenous health. When her co-worker (a traditional Aboriginal woman from the desert) is in Alice she stays with my friend, rather than with kin in the town camp. My friend is happy that she can provide a safe haven for her co-worker, but of course this erodes her co-worker's relationship with her kin. I don't know that there are any easy answers......

How many aborigines does it take to change a light bulb ?
What light bulb ? These people have no power ! .......
But how do you make self determination work when there is no real effort made to establish what the problems are ? And whose analysis will be used for understanding the issues ? And who gets to decide the preferred outcomes, the priorities, the strategies, how much money is needed, who gets to spend it ? Why is there no accountability ?
As a taxpayer, why am I expected to keep funding a Nil Result ? Why do we keep trying to provide Urban Australian solutions to Indigenous issues? Why do so many aboriginal people try to draw on the mainstream socio-economic model without properly subscribing to it ?
Why can't common sense prevail ?

I do think (for what it is worth) that different races need to "respect" each other, not necessarily intertwine with each other's fundamental belief systems. Following that I belief it improper and outright cruel to inject aboriginals with vaccinations for (not against) diseases which were contrived for the industrialised white folk's.
White's food supplies need to be withdrawn slowly with increase of local education of ancient survival techniques, before the "old knowledge" dies out. Those who were drawn to the cities for white education should learn all different dialects to serve their people.Bush-tucker made the aboriginal survive thousands of years, so their genes are made up for that kind of survival and food. White's psychology does not work either for non-whites as it doesn't even work for whites. Money is an exchange method which will only deminish survival for non-whites and whites have become slaves for it.Why do we as whites have the tendency to think us better survivalists than
aboriginals? We cannot even look at our own issues like excepting herbs and banning nutritious food and natural healing. Who the f... are we to think that this and /or that, is a good way for the aboriginals to live and learn?

DRW,

You make as much sense as the average bear. Clearly you have only had contact with the urban alcoholic tendencies of some.

A suitable response to some of your imponderables has been provided by eftfnc.

I add that people are entitled to live where they want. Indigenous people are restricted in that regard, by us, whites. By your attitude which is shared widely I acknowledge. To all our regrets.

Although I do have some comments on parts of eftfnc's post too.

Eftfnc (acronym?). Indigenous Australians happen to live today, not centuries ago. They do have the bush tucker skills but why should they need such?

Your comment on psychology is spot on. It doesn't work for any of us on these issues and many more. And couldn't agree more re money. It enslaves all that play that game. Money is just an exchange of assets. Work for wages. Money to live with, not worship.

Back to DRW.

Mainly because they are not supported to any great extent, despite DRW's assertions. The money does not get to the communities. Listen! It is wasted on projects, reviews and skimmed greatly by the higher levels on both sides. DRW would want support should he fall on bad times as he has paid taxes. So has everyone mate, regardless of what kind. GST and white stores on communities charge like wounded bulls and pretend the people there are ignorant. Anger and violence ensues.

JohnJ, Thanks for your comments. There are few of us with simiar views and we need to speak louder and more often if we can.

Agree on the difficulty of changing after so many years of control. It's almost impossible to recover from that. Same thing is being imposed on Iraq by George, and John H the deputy sherrif. With the inevitable failure.

Meeting a real full indigenous person is a real experience. They are gentle, soulful and quiet. Lovely people. Unfortunately not what the media presents to the ignorance we have swallowed for so long. I at last regurgitated it! I was raised as a bigot unfortunately due to the town fringe dwellers and the alcohol and violence. Took a lot to get through that image.

Whats a "real full indigenous person"? You seem to imply that some one who is not one of these is some how inferior. Isent this a racist atitude?