I have to agree wholeheartedly with funkylamb. I can’t believe that someone would wade so far into the “Culture Wars” that Charlie thinks are dead, in order to demonise the Left by aligning it with censorship and other stereotypical images. Don’t you see the amusing irony of saying that in response to this article? Do you really think the extreme Left is worse than the extreme Right?

On the other hand, I do think it emphasises and interesting point… contrary to Charlie’s claim the Culture Wars are dead – I think the response to this article shows quite strongly that they are not. People, including the readers of this article, are obviously still defining themselves down Left and Right sides of the debate. They feel associated with and connected to the side of the debate they agree with.

To say that the topic is dead, but politicians are keeping it alive is to miss the obvious point, as well, that politicians keep it alive. If the “green” issue is seen as a Left issue – even though people who are otherwise Right aligned also see it as an issue – then IT IS a Left issue – simply because everyone still thinks it is. It may swing green minded fence sitters to vote Labour (or Green, obviously). It makes Right winger types suspicious of the whole movement because it come form “the other side”.

Far from being dead, I think the cultural Left/Right divide is alive and kicking. I think they are simply irrelevant to some (mainly “Labour Right” / “Liberal Left”, fence sitting, swinging voters – like Charlie). There may be a lot of people in the middle – but I think the extremists are still there, and growing in number. This often happens, in my humble opinion, after a long period of the same government being in power.

"People wonder why our generation seems so disengaged from politics - sometimes ascribed to selfishness and ignorance. I think it’s because we’re waiting for our leaders, and the introspective system of factions and career politicians, to throw up something worth getting excited about."

Charlie. Guess what? If you could only now see how John Howard has successfully socially engineered Australia into the nasty state it's in now ! Sadly, you (and others of your ilk) are all to busy worrying about your job, your mortgage, your short term future or your long term aspirations of wealth concentration, to be concerned about the future of Australian society.

It's a neat trick isn't it?

I like the way Howard and his cronies have fooled a whole generation of people (sorry Charlie, you included) into believing that what's good for them is good for the country, or the community. NO IT'S NOT. It's what's good for you.

So. Go out and make your fortune (by the way, the Tax Office will keep track of you) and you'll be happy.

No? You'll be a selfish, isolated, little 'production unit' (see "Atlas Shrugged" - Ayn Rand) who is prepared to sacrifice (or be sacrificed by) anyone or anything that gets in the way of your own betterment.

Community? Society? They're OK as long as you don't have to pay the welfare benefits and they are potential 'consumer units' for exploitation!

Charles Forsyth says: "Australians are smarter, more cynical, sensitive, independent and selfless than the generals of both sides believe."

Yes generally speaking. However, if these people are indifferent to ideology, politics and what the policy makers are up to - how can they possibly make an informed choice when they go to vote?

On all sides of politics there is also a lot of concern about the biased media. The prime-time current affair show are just over-dramatic harassing of small-time scammers while the big issues get very little attention. SMH and Brissy's Courier Mail have Andrew Bolt but fail to balance A.B.s wind up with an opposing perspective.

Also, I have noticed that, if people do get interested, they often fall into the more "passionate" groups that have a tendency, not only to negative politicking, but also of taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge because of their prior disinterest. Magic solutions and scapegoats - how passé. Maybe some people aren't cynical enough?

Charles example of conservationists being both left and right is a great example -however, it has been the conservationists who have had to endure the attacks from the far right for their political incorrectness in the eyes of the right. This is despite the fact that a lot of conservationists main interest was in safeguarding the environment rather than politics.

A lot of right wingers are mistaken about the people they regard as left and a lot of left wingers are mistaken about the people that they see as right wingers. I think the hardcore zealots maliciously develop a culture of mistrust and division. Plenty of evidence on OLO.

We need to develop a culture where Australians are correctly and fairly informed, where discussion doesn’t end in immature slagging off and putting people into boxes while ignoring the ideas presented - so that Australians can utilise their positive characteristics. Yes most Australians may be smarter, more cynical, sensitive, independent and selfless than the generals of both sides believe – but it all counts for nought if the “generals” and their propaganda merchants take advantage of Australians' indifference.

"This is despite the fact that a lot of conservationists main interest was in safeguarding the environment rather than politics"

Ronnie, i disagree. The majority of conservationists are ideologically driven (utopian naturalists, wilderness romantics, Hobbian zealots.

Yes they may be more focused on the environment than on political systems but recent history also suggests that they are willing to prostitute themselves to political systems (Greens preferences rangling for example in Victorian election).

Up here in Qld there are various Green groups, most of them operating in isolation from each other and very protective and defensive about their ideological own take on the 'enivironment'.

My point is that like any fundamentalist groups they are prone to be attacked by all and sundry at any given time. Not just the right or the left, but by anyone who sees their posturing as nothing more than an urban political fashion statement.

Few if any of them really connect to the 'environment' they speak of.

Is conservation really an urban political fashion statement?
Ahh, so THAT'S why we need a change in climate before it becomes fashionable.

Funkylamb “So what's the war on terror - a walk in the park?”

Oh I like it when people ask me questions, it gives me opportunity to answer.

I used to live in UK

When a student I visited a pub in Birmingham. the IRA blew it up in 1974.
I was in a swimming pool with wife and daughter when we were told to evacuate, no time to get dressed, it was an IRA bomb threat.
I was confined in a tube train for 2 hours when IRA set bombs along the Bakerloo line.
I used to work in Bond St, next to Oxford St, favourite place for IRA bombs.
I have family members who served in Northern Ireland, defending Britain against the IRA terrorist.
The day I drove to the High Commission, for my interview to migrate to Australia, in 1982, I drove past Green Park and then back past Hyde Park. The IRA blew up the bandstand in Green Park and Lifeguards on horses in Hyde Park that very day.

So what do I think of this “War on Terror- a walk in the park?”
It sure is nothing like a walk in Hyde Park or Green Park in 1982.

As for “more of our money on servicing mortgages”
That is completely untrue.
Incomes have increased since then and the “affordability calculation” has remained constant, at around 30% of gross income, basically because lenders do not lend above that rate.

Go on all you want about “dribbling fantasy”. The UK Labour Party manifesto of 1979 included mass nationalization of the finance sector and the appointment of party political editors to all newspapers.

Ask someone from East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia or Estonia how wonderful it was living in a workers utopia.

Do you remember exactly how elegantly Ceausescu, of Romania, exited from politics?

“Entryism” is the name of the process which Trotskyites and fellow travellers still use to infiltrate labor and green political movements.

Don’t bother to lecture me on communism/socialism, it is the politics of the mediocre, the envious and the small minded underachievers.