I don't care much for religion anymore, however this is the time to act, not tomorrow, not next week,next year, n ow is the time.Begin it now, so that costs in the future will be less.

I believe the problems are so fundamental that there will be no solution this side of a fundamental change in global economic structure. We have to change from a system of ‘competing external economies driven by consumption’ to one single internal economy strengthened by conservation.

This is not as alien as it may sound – corporations use ‘internal economies’ all the time within their own companies. These economies value conservation of materials and personnel, efficiencies in processes and applications. We have to realize that the Earth is an internal economy – if we have learnt one thing from Space exploration it should be that we are alone. There are no prospects of other habitable planets for tens of light years – we need an ‘internal’ system.

Imagine a corporation where accounts are withholding money from purchasing officers, factory floor workers are starving, human resources are bombing advertising, executives are drunk and the data-processors are firing AK-47’s into the delivery bay. It is insanity and yet this is what our world is – an internal system at war with itself. How long would such a company last? How long can such a planet last?

The Author said:

"G-20 will be relevant only through real action on poverty and corruption"

I would like to underline the AND CORRUPTION aspect. Because this is the REASON for the poverty.

a) Corrupting influences of huge Multi-nationals
b) Corrupt local government ministers.

They say it takes 2 to Tango, and it is the above 'two' which dance the night away.

G20 PROTEST IN MELBOURNE.
I've just come back and to my regret I left too early, the action only started after I departed.
Some observations.
1/ Probably only 30% of the reasonable crowd were hardcore 'anti G20'
but they were pushing the usual 'Troops out now, More funding for HIV, down with Homophobia, Socialist Alliance/Resistance agenda.

2/ The other 70% was comprised of varied groups including even Christian ones, and a surreal "Mexican" group complaining about genocide against Indians in Mexico. I spoke with one holding the banner. He is Indian. I asked "How would you feel about millions of Yankees coming across your border" ? He said "They already did, we are just retaking Mexican Territory"

3/ Encouraging was one group which put the spotlight on CHINA and indeed did point out the tyranical dictatorship and its cruelty to its own.
4/ Then there was a smattering of various other causes and groups of a rather peripheral nature.

5/ Most I spoke to agreed that the problems of Globalization are exacerbated by China's low labor rates and that Multi-nationals would not export our jobs there if Chinese were paid decent wages.

The Socialists do NOT believe there would be a bloodbath in Iraq if we pulled all troops out 'tomorrow'.

FRONT LINE is where I was, with a policewoman with a batton aimed at me about a meter away. When I told her I'm not a protestor and would defend her she said "sweet" :)

P.S. G20 PROTEST.

Some behavior by the radicals...

They had speeches at the State Library, then began the march.
Mounted police led the march and it remained quite orderly until....
As it proceeded up Burke Street, radicals who had preplanned this, then swarmed AROUND the horses, and raced up towards Russell, then turned, and were met by the barricades and 3 levels of police lines.
1/ Layer 1. Uniformed officers...standard police.
2/ Layer 2. Mounted police
3/ Layer 3. Riot Police.

Some radicals taunted the police, others sprayed a hose at them from first floor of a nearby building. Still others, were DRESSED IN RIOT POLICE UNIFORMs with replica guns. That group had a pow-wow and I deliberately eavesdropped, they told me to f-off as it was a private convo, and I told them its also a public place...and stayed.
Then radicals attacked/approached from a different access point, and the whole front line of police ran to the new weak spot to be replaced by riot police. At this point I felt a discrete withdrawal was needed.

As per the news, the radicals then apparently breached police lines, acted like thugs in MacDonalds, and generally acted up.
Unfortunately my first hand account ends there, as I thought it was over and had left. Silly me....it was only just getting warmed up.
Balloons filled with Urine thrown at police, flares, etc ..not good.

BD. You and I can go down to the supermarket and feed ourselves. There are too many in the world who cannot do that. To have people who have never known hunger, discuss poverty is a joke!

Even if you took all the wealth in the world and divided evenly,within few short years,the same poverty would exist.Wealth exists in the minds of your people,and money is the medium or oil that facilitates economic activity.Giving money alone is just adding to their problems.Govt corruption is one of the biggest obstacles that poor countries face.Aid must be given under strict conditions of disciple and good governance.

Basically there are just too many people on the planet.With energy and resources getting scarcer,the problem of poverty will only get worse.Very few seem to mention contraception.Is that in the too hard basket?

If countries living in extreme poverty want to enjoy the benefits of capitalism and democracy they then have to democracise and become entrepreneurial (capitalist). They have to get rid of the restrictive aspects of their traditional culture and become more western. Ultimately all reforms have to come from within. Westerners cannot return to colonialism, so third worlders will have to do the hard yards themselves!

Arjay, Your compassion is just so deep and plentiful.

The violent protest riots in Melbourne were less of people wanting to make a meaningful difference, but exert a power by media attention...the message is unclear though, how will the starving millions going to directly benefit from what was seen yesterday?

Want to make a difference, then work and save at least $6,000. Forget donating to agencies, as they have been in operation for ages and have had little impact on the problem despite the billions in donations received...bar some carefully released media showing bore holes with smiling children drinking clean water, the reality is the proportion drinking dirty water is by far the majority...

Then donate about 6 weeks of your life, go to needy country and spend a week to see how YOU can spend your $6000 most effectively, taking care to respect the local way of life and yourself, then spend the rest of the time doing so...you certainly will return with a sense of fulfillment especially if you 'connect' to the people directly...

Imagine if we all did this at some time of our lives...

Sam

Radical protestors seem to sometimes go too far as had occurred during the week, perhaps taken into context what they are standing against is the loss [death] of 30,000 people a day on the globe.

If you say it really quickly 30,000 lives every day doesn't sound a lot, however to these people those lives are worth fighting for.

The ecomony runs a distant second in my humble opinion to climate change, which if not addressed immediately will cause the world economy to bankrupt itself anyway.

Arjay - "... there are just too many people on the planet ... Very few seem to mention contraception"

I also wondered why nobody mentioned this very obvious and basic point. The premise seems to be that India, China etc. overpopulate their countries knowing they will be bailed out by the West. Does the world truly need billions more Chinese/Indians/Africans?

If these countries stopped producing excess people they can never hope to feed and educate, let alone provide employment for, perhaps it would not be 'necessary' to export our jobs.

Kip - "You and I can go down to the supermarket and feed ourselves."

True - but not if your job is exported to some Third World country via corporate greed. After all, some desperate Third World person will be happy to do your job for one third of your salary and no safety net.

Perhaps its time that the Archbishop contemplated his navel and
accepted the role that religion plays, in being responsible
for so much poverty and hunger in Africa.

Forcing women to have far more kids then they can provide for
or feed, will no doubt result in suffering and starvation.
That is basic natural law, ignore it at your peril.

Sending boatloads of food will simply increase the problem,
it won't solve anything.

So perhaps its time to get real in Africa, where population
growth is amongst the highest in the world. Provide all
women with family planning, so that they can choose the size
of their families. If a woman or man want their tubes tied,
don't let religious fanatacism get in the way of common sense,
lets provide it.

The Archbishop might be an Anglican, but he clearly should speak
out about the misery and suffering that the Catholic Church is
responsible for in Africa, in the name of religious dogma.

While it is a truly admirable ideal, 'making poverty history' will remain a catch phrase as long as the fundamental problems remain. Talking of GDP percentages increasing to meet aid or changing the 'market' dominance of economics WILL NOT solve the problems in Africa.

Unfortunately by increasing aid all the west is doing is funding the Mercedes motorcades in Harare and Sudan. Instead of protests at economic and government forums, the radical left should be blockading the palaces of the real problems-the likes of Mugabe etc who perpetuate suffering amongst their own people by deliberately blocking aid and selling it to the highest bidder

Too much compassion has got the world in the mess it's in today.We have to realistic and look at the underlying problems.A little over 150yrs ago the industrial revolution has brought about enormous changes which basically began in the West.Better food production and medicine to fight disease in poor countries have seen their pop.expand expodentially,yet no one mentioned the need to reduce family size.It is very irresponsible to give people the tools of over popoulation and not insist on birth control.

Now,with both resources and energy becoming scarcer due to China and India modernising,millions more in other poor countries will suffer.

The world does not have the energy,resources or environmental capacity to raise the living standards to that of advanced countries.To sign Kyoto in its' present form gives carte blanche rights to poor countries to pollute at will,continue over populating,while we become poor and see the environment deteriorate even more.

We are giving all our jobs to China and India.What more can we do?Our real living standards in terms of housing affordability and daily living costs have fallen significantly over the last 20yrs.Manufactured goods from China are cheaper,but at an enormous cost.This Globalisation just gives unfetted power to the multi-nationals who see third world cheap wages as a way of having enormous margins and creating larger markets without having to pay taxes for infrastructure or education.

With groundwater depletion,soil, vegetation destruction more arid areas developing due to climate change,things will get a lot worse.Just watch our food prices soar due to the drought.We will have enormous problems just looking after our own very soon ,without taking on the world's insurmountable problems.

Boaz: "FRONT LINE is where I was, with a policewoman with a batton aimed at me about a meter away. When I told her I'm not a protestor and would defend her..."

So if you weren't there to protest, what exactly were you doing at the "FRONT LINE" (sic) ? Surely not looking for a little biffo? Hoping to save a few Trot souls?

Given your expressed regret at leaving before "the action started", one can only conclude that it was the former purpose.

Did you wear a brown shirt?

CJ, A good mate of mine (socialist alliance) told me last night that saw a bloke wearing a brown shirt and brown baggy shorts, pith hat, knee length white socks and leather sandals (standard missionary clobber) sucking up to the coppers and then running away when it became apparent to him that it wasn't going to work.

I reckon that policewomen was waving that baton at him for dressing like this in public. It should be an arrestable offence if you ask me. it?

Arjay and Dee, well excuse me. The past 400 years of western development was depended on exploiting these same nations that are overpopulated. Ever heard of Mercantilism? But lets not history and Lefty sentiment for the plight of other human beings get in the way of approaching these matters rationally and with our interests in mind. But to you two this is simply expressing good Australians values and culture isn't it. Warm humanitarian people that you both are.

C.J. and Ranier..*gang of 2* :)

I went there mainly to observe....and learn. I did both. As for a bit of biffo... I was not up to it as I have a pulled muscle in my left groin/upper thigh area.

I'll share some of what I learnt.

1/ Political Correctness/feminism in front line policing is putting lives in danger. 55kg petite females against a surging mass of hundreds ? think.
2/ I learnt how such protests are seen as an opportunity by many diverse groups to proclaim their message.
-Animal Liberation
-Christians (yep.. there was a presence)
-PhalunGong protesters.
-Mexican Indigenous Indian group (publicising a massacre by the Mexican government)

What I found interesting from the Mexican Indian bloke was his attitude that the mass flood of illegal Mexicans into America is just re-claiming stolen terrority. Though I find it hard to comprehend why an 'Indian' regards such territory as 'Mexican' when that same government is the one which massacred his own people ? hmmmmm

POLICE TACTICS The police could have captured all the 'guirilla' protesters by having un-uniformed members ready to close off exits of all street approaches. All we have now is "Police hunt thugs" headlines.
It COULD have been "50 thugs in custody"

The Arterial Bloc mob had a website which made known the contact details. The police should have had undercover members infiltrate this and find out exactly where and what.

If push came to shove, and a white suited protestor was attacking public (as in MY taxpayer doller funded) property such as police vans etc.. I would have no issue with making a citizens arrest. Under the crimes act this is lawful behavior. You have a problem ? Take it to your local member.
Brownshirt ? :) not my color. By the way, inner renewal cannot be achieved by 'brownshirt' action. duh.

Kippy.
Spiritually Renewed capitalists will do far more for poverty than unrenewed socialists mate. The socialists would have bankrupted all the reserve banks decades ago. Unrenewed capitalists are as dangerous as unrenewed Socialists.

Kipp “To have people who have never known hunger, discuss poverty is a joke!”

Same too, those who have no knowledge of how to run a chook raffle should not be protesting against those who, in the most part, selected by their experience and then elected by the populous in free elections to run national economies as ministers of government.

We have all seen it, when socialists get hold of an economy, it is on the road to rack and ruin, then those who would not, under conservative government, have known hunger ever, get a good taste of it first hand under socialist incompetence.

Remember Tricontinental. Remember the sale of the State Bank of Victoria, the Scoresby Freeway which was renamed the Scoresby Tollway the day after Brack’s & Co was elected last time.

Whilst your quip might be an attempt at being profound, it is really just the expected contempt through ignorance and plain envy which underscores every socialist’s opinion.

Rainier “Arjay, Your compassion is just so deep and plentiful.”

Oh sarcasm becomes you rainier, or is it patronage? Either way, Arjay is right, I know it, you know it, so what is wrong with stating the bleeding obvious or does recognizing it disrupt the view from your ivory tower?

As for “The past 400 years of western development was depended on exploiting these same nations”

Those 400 years saw the class system exploiting their own too. Remember the Corn Laws, the Enclosures Acts, the Peterloo Massacre.

The world has changed. We are responsible for our own actions, not our ancestors. I know it is a nice anecdote for you to feel superior and smug by suggesting we of the modern west should atone for the shortcomings of our ancestors but it ain’t gonna happen.

As well as that the “West” does far more than anyone else in trying to lift these underdeveloped nations out of their economic sloth and poverty. I see not many African or South American or Asian Nations with a “Foreign Aid budget” do you?

I am with you David Boaz.

The author says 60,000 people died while this conference was on. Can anyone verify this figure as it seems a high figure. Almost 11 million a year. If we all chipped in and provided the food to save all these (an impossible task) where would the world population be in ten years.

Add on the number that die from aids and people are working hard to find a cure for cancer and stroke.

While I have compassion, the mind just boggles at the expanding population figures.

Bugger Peter Costello, we do not need more babies in Aus. If anything every country should follow China's lead and limit one child per family for a few generations.

I cannot think of any other reasonable action.

Rainier - 'Warm humanitarian people that you both are.'

Let's see how warm and humanitarian you feel when your job is exported to a Third World country. Then again, being such a humanitarian person, I'm sure you wont mind being unemployed so long as an Indian or Chinese person benefits.

The West has given billions to Africa with no discernable result except a rising birthrate. More than $380billion has been either stolen or wasted by Nigerian governments alone since independence in 1960. That means that the bloodsucking African 'elites' live a life of luxury at the expense of their starving people.

"Lefty sentiment for the plight of other human beings"

'Sentiment' is the operative word here. Tackling the problems of Africa will take more than 'sentiment' or warm humanitarian feelings. The only real way to stop the corruption and violence is recolonisation (which will never happen), or strict control of all aid given.

South Africa is a perfect example of people acting on 'warm humanitarian feelings' and no logic. Those champions of humanitarianism who brought Apartheid to an end are leaving like rats deserting a sinking ship because South Africa under black rule has become the rape and crime capital of the world - just like the rest of the continent.

C.J..... I'm sorry I neglected to address a very important aspect of your previous post. (u remember it... the snide one :)

You said "and save some tot souls"

Firstly.. mind informing of what is a 'tot' soul ?

I did have some very fruitful conversations with a number of people, including animal liberationists.. surprisingly to me, most of the people I spoke to, agree with my position that neither 'Left' nor 'Right' alone will answer the problems of humanity politically.

An animal libber girl said she is totally cynical about ALL forms of government, I agree with her and explained what I said in an earlier post about 'renewed people'.. and Christ.

What surprises me most these days, is that people ARE open to discussing Jesus, as long as we are not yelling at them or ramming a little booklet down their throats.

Going from 'Issues' to 'Christ' seems to touch a responsive nerve in a nice way.

So, C.J. let me address this to you also, (again I'm sure) forgetting about my various 'postures' here, and you continual attempts to pidgeon hole me variously as a 'brown shirt', 'racist','liker of young girls', 'lousy supervisor' all of which seem to me more aimed at propping up a sense of self righteousness ? than denegrating me...

Why not consider encountering Jesus as The Christ/Messiah/Saviour yourself in the pages of the New Testament and then perhaps you will be able to 'correct' me with a greater spirit of gentleness than accusation, as you realize that we are both (all) sinners.

You see, fortunately, Salvation does not depend on 'me', it depends on your own committment to God in Christ. The Lord will not be asking you "so..wasn't that Boaz character a whacko...a this and a that"? he will be asking you "Did you search out the truth about me for yourself in spite of the meagre qualities of the messenger" ?

COL Rouge... those incidents you listed are quite something eh.. corn laws, etc. Next thing C.J. will be calling me a member of the Cato Street Mob' :)

What i want to see is the figues 30,000 per day and even with live aid charities we cant keep up
what are they rabbits.

Hey dont get me wrong but come on.

how about some real figures for a change

dee, since you're grasp of history is so astoundingly fertile please tell me who was it that disbanded aparthied in SA?

No one Rainier, You see, it was a Leftist Lobotomized ploy;
They introduced it in Western Societies and called it MULTICULTURALISM;

The new Invented apartheid; Now don’t be angry Rainier; You have only been programmed by the Proletariat; Don’t be scared and enter the real world of knowledge; It won’t bite , I promise, Just the crap they have filled your head with will conflict like some computer virus, but help is near if you need it.
Just learn to think a little bit harder and break that terrible yoke.
It’s a new world of knowledge, and feel free to be independent .