Andrew, I have posted this information before but here it is again: between 1950 and 1985 the West transferred to the Third World over US$2 trillion. That sum of money (US$2 trillion) was enough to purchase all the companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange PLUS the entire American farm system.

It's only about a week or so that Andrew Bartlett of the Democrats suggested that our farmers, in trying to make a living on the land, should be told to toss it in and further funding was money wasted. Maybe his principle applies here. In spite of vast sums of money spent trying to help these people our efforst have been wasted.

I would say that the enemy is not poverty. The enemy is the typical esurient despot who is in charge of some of these desperate countries gripped by poverty.

I often wonder what our obsession is with helping the poor in countries, which are so far away that they would be totally invisible to us were it not for the all seeing eye of the modern media/celebrity millionaires, when we have a rather large poverty problem on our doorstep.

I'm sorry, and my heart goes out to the people in those countries who are in these awful situations, but I can't see any justification for helping them, when we haven't sorted our domestic issues first.

Just throwing money at them will create more Saddam's & Osama's, as it's inevitable a dominant power will come to the fore when there is a profit to be had.

I don't get the impression that our help is appreciated either, as it seems whenever we go in to help (Indonesia & Afghanistan are cases in point), that all the problems the locals have (which are more often than not of their own making) are then blamed on the west because we didn't help enough, or we had an influence over this dictator, or that warlord who was stealing the money.
Just doesn't seem like a good investment, since the money is inevitably wasted, and rarely makes it to those most in need. We should learn from past mistakes, that we need to leave these people to their own devices, and if a few or many die, then it just isn't our problem to fix. Also, there's something to be said for natural selection. Some are lucky & some aren't in terms of where they're born & who their parents are (I consider myself incredibly lucky btw), and this unfortunately often determines whether one lives or dies. The west should apply the law of the jungle & stop with the bleeding heart leftisms.

It is truly sad when we cannot see compassion enough in ourselves to help others less fortunate.

I'm not a great fan of self-promoters (e.g. Geldof or Bono). But one point that really hit me between the eyes in Geldof's series on the ABC was that the west TOTALLY controls exports from the third world via the WTO. This IS a global cartel which dictates to any producing country the price at which goods will be traded.

So. The example he gave was Coca beans (which we know as cocoa and is used in chocolate in the west). The WTO will ONLY buy raw, harvested beans, not value added powder (for which the producer could obtain a bit higher price). The WTO traps the producer into a price at which THEY will screw them down to, with no hope of developing any value added exports. This, to me looks like economic imperialism at its worst and can only be created by a global cartel!

What price the economic freedoms of the west?

I’m more than happy with the donations that I have made to select NGO’s that deliver real outcomes where they needed.

Bono might be able to crank out a snappy tune but I get offended when Australia’s effort to tackle poverty is considered inferior to European contributions.

Economic empowerment of third world countries is a more viable solution to poverty in the long term.

European Union faming subsidies especially to countries such as Bono’s native Ireland are appalling, inefficient and especially unfair to the third world.

If Bono the great bothered to take on the reduction and removal of EU farming subsidies then we really could progress along the path to making poverty history.

Conspicuous compassion displayed through passive donations at rock and roll concerts whilst ignoring the real trade inequities facing the third world are more likely to just make poverty perpetual.

In an era of unparalleled COMMODITY based economic activity, its such a pity that one commodity lacking in the STOPG20 protest and even the article in question here is.... INSIGHT.
The most abundant commodity evident is "sentimental naivity".

Meaningless sloguns like
-'We must dig deeper'
-'we must do more'
-'Lets halve poverty'

etc.. are evidence of the bankruptcy of most organizations which seek to address the issues.

They are targeting the wrong things.

3rd world countries are POOR....why ? 2 reasons.

1/ Corruption of Local Nobility who look after their own interests b4 the nation.
2/ The Corrupting Influence of Multi Nationals who are complicit in point 1

Solution ? aah.. I've got it.. form a 'noise band', blow whistles, be disobedient little brats (supported by their parents or the dole)

What a load of infantile stupidity !

ROOT CAUSES.

a) 2 have been mentioned above.
b) MultiNationals seeking cheap labor and/or manufactured goods.
c) Point b above is resulting in outsourcing to India and China.
d) Non democratic countries such as China calling the tune in a big way and basing its economy on forced low/slave labor rates.

It could be argued that the 'greedy multinationals' are in fact HELPing the less developed nations by giving them the jobs of Australians and Americans etc.

But still, the root cause is human corruption and greed.
This coupled with the economic power of China with its low labor costs, is the real cause.

REAL SOLUTION/TARGET.
1/ Dismantle Corrupt Political regimes in 3rd world countries.
2/ Force China to pay a living wage to is workers.

Anything else is simply dreamland

CALL FOR ACTION.

The STOPG20 protest is being coordinated by the Green Left weekly and many leftist socialist groups. I understand there are some Christian groups too, but dont know much about them.

AIM FOR THE REAL TARGET.

They should divide their protest and equally assemble outside the CHINESE CONSULATE (in ACT most likely)and harangue them for their despicable, inhuman mistreatment of working people.

So, why does the GLW and STOPG20 do this ? Simple. they are using the protest simply to advance a socialist alternative to capitalism, which has never worked and never will while humans remain unrenewed in mind and heart.

SOCIALISM will bankrupt the nation.
CAPITALISM will bankrupt the resources.

BIBLICAL APPROACH.

It's really quite simple.

1/ Love God first
2/ Love your neighbour as yourself.

All human conflict and reasons for poverty can be resolved by these 2 values.

Capitalism

will be constrained by values of sustainability, compassion and accountablity.

Socialism

will reject its amoral atheistic valueless approach to society and adopt more realistic measures based on the true nature of people. It will provide for aspirational fulfillment rather than collective dumbing down of the whole socieity to the lowest common proletariat denominator.

Sage,
I'll give you one thing - consistentency! You keep nailing the pronlems, but never provide a possible solition. Please gift us with your wisdom? What should we do?

Astutely observed Sage

FU2 “The WTO will ONLY buy raw, harvested beans,”

Actually, WTO does not buy anything. It is a facilitation and arbitration forum, not a buying agent.

One reason might be, the political history of the grower country has been so volatile that no one will risk investing in a processing plant there again.

If you would like some other examples,
there are, apparently, more tanneries which specialise in Kangaroo skins in Italy than there are in Australia.
Australia exports raw iron and imports it back as Japanese Cars.

None of those trades are funded or represent purchases of the WTO either.

As for “What price the economic freedoms of the west”

I would observe, an education is the first requirement for anything, if those aid recipient countries had spent more on educating plumbers and less on inventing supposed excuses for cocoa beans they would not have many of the problems which seem to besot them. I would further suggest you get some education too instead of simply indulging us with your blatant ignorance.

Jimbo – your own contributions to NGOs – excellent response and attitude. As for Bono, who the hell cares what one opinionated and indulgent Irish man thinks. No one has ever elected him to public office, when he cares to stand on his merit and not on his populist appeal, then maybe he will have relevance,
I could not care less about Bono’s opinion of Australia, we do not need his approval for anything. If he felt that strongly about it, he would cross us off the tour list, foregoing the revenue and ego boost.

Generally well said David BOAZ, your expectations of capitalism are realistic but those of socialism are idealistic in the extreme and not the stuff which socialists will ever think to achieve, instead “mediocrity” inherits the benchmark.

SHONGA, maybe certain national governments remain unready for “self rule”. Too many governments arm up for prestige whilst their populous starve. Recolonisation would be one option, but it flies in the face of what is deemed “politically correct”.

Shonga, what say we over-fly some of the African countries and bombard them with the pill.

End foriegn aid. At best, its a mechanism for the ruling party to reward their mates with no bid contracts to ship unsaleable goods off for a profit. But with apparently half of Aus forign aid budget currently going to pay Aus Federal Police officer salaries in foriegn countries (let me bet those with public order problems that threaten extractive industries), theres fat chance of that happening - you can't rely on local uniforms to keep the wheels of progress churning fast enough, probably cos they have to stick around to face the mconsequences.

Make Poverty History? What a ridiculous idea, as likely make sneezing history, so long as the West still stacks the deck via the IMF & World Bank structural adjustment programs, 'kick the ladder out' free trade dogma that the WTO enforces, and the 170 overseas bases for capitalisms leading (but not sole) military enforcer, the US. MPH is a sad joke, pulled on all those who still believe the propaganda arriving daily from on high. No combination of tied or untied aid and debt relief will even reduce poverty so long as businesses operating in those countries are able to literally bulldoze local land rights and basic needs, and export the profits along with the resources and skilled labour, which is currently the rule rather than the exception.

The massive drain of fish, oil, timber, soy, beef and just about every other commodity from the majority world to the industrialised nations also has a little to do with embedding poverty, but Australia is less guilty of that than many other nations (just don't ask where yr imported timber comes from).

BD, I am confused in the extreme. Proletariat? Capitalists refusing to give living wages? In China?

Well yes, capitalism is rampart in China - it is the governing ethos of the burgeoning middle class which is by far the largest social stream in China as in Australia. But who are these people not getting a "living wage" and on whose behalf you call for protests in Canberra?

Yes,I've seen dreadful sights over the past few years as a result of poverty: homeless children packed six into a two-man tent on sleeping bags soaked in urine; children as young as 6 selling weed on street corners and also providing access to crack; homeless old men and women sleeping in dank alleyways and infested with lice; kids crying with hungerpangs; a child being sent home from school in mid-winter for "breaking the dress code" by not wearing shoes and the teachers not caring that it was because he had none; and homeless families being turned away by indiferent Government officials when desperate for food, clothing and shelter.

But all of those sights were in Australia, mate, not in China. I think perhaps we should attend to the mote in our own eyes before we go banging on any embassy doors with self-righteous ignorance

It's only by living in a poor country for an extended period that you come to realize how their poverty stems directly from us. Small countries are not only slave workshops producing our amazingly cheap consumer goods, they are locked out of trade relationships, their economies cornered.

To argue that we should deal with our own poverty first is misguided - world poverty is our poverty. We have to own it.

Live in a poor nation for a while then you realize that 99% of Australians, although many may be trapped by mortgages, are filthy rich.

Sure there is no excuse for us not supporting our own poor, but that is no excuse for not attending to the misery we bring onto others.

The author also referred to the Stern report. Again it is our consumer lifestyles that are threatening the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of millions. This is mass manslaughter we are talking about, much bigger than Auswitch.

BOAZ_David if, as a Christian, you cannot acknowldge this gross immorality, then please don't preach your Christian values, it does a great disservice to your religion.

Gecko, I have nothing actually to add to what you have said: - except that for those who do live in poverty in Australia it matters not a whit if they are living in the greatest country on earth or the meanest: poverty wears the same face everywhere.

What I wanted to post for however, was simply so I could stand up and be counted as one who agrees wholeheartedly with everything in your post.

Oh I can always tell when someone is trying to promote a barren view, that is a view with no merit, no substance, no solution and obviously no expected or achievable outcome.

It is the view which focuses on faux-compassion, hyperbole and usually a high degree of whine (bit like a jet engine).

When I see words and phrases like

“poverty stems directly from us” – ascribing “blame” to the developed democratic countries, ignoring the corruption and tribalism which infests most underdeveloped nations.

Or

“Small countries …. Locked out of trade relationships“, like Belgium, Luxembourg Or New Zealand maybe or even Australia, with a mere 20 million folk we too are pretty small?

Or

“world poverty is our poverty. We have to own it.” I do not think so, try to help eliminate it, yes, but “own it” certainly not. We can give good example and lead by that example to how a country should be run, for the people and by the people etc.

Or

“no excuse for not attending to the misery we bring onto others.”

Hmmm don’t think so,

Then the hyperbole

“This is mass manslaughter we are talking about, much bigger than Auswitch”

(I think that is supposed to be some version of Auschwitz, although, not the Polish spelling which was ”Oswiecim”).

Ah here is the hyperbole, whenever someone tries to hang a comparison with anything to do with Hitler, concentration camps or the Third Reich, you know they have let sense and reason fall off the tram a long way back.

If I were to suggest suitable comparisons to Aushwitz, it would be Cambodia, under Pol Pot’s Khymer Rouge, a communistic regime. Or maybe Rwanda, ethnic cleansing on a massive scale perpetrated by who? . It could be the Balkans – more ethnic cleansing at the hands of a another failed communist state.

Never at the hands of Democratic Nations.

Democracies these days, through IMF and World Bank are exporting a model of free market development in hand with democracy which works. Not some crackpot third rate socialist mumbo-jumbo and witch–doctory which doesn’t.

Right, right, Col Rouge, and the uber-capitalist China is democratic HOW, exactly? By publishing stats on the number of labour activists they execute? Hmm.

What about Argentina, that once-upon-a-poster child for neoliberal reform? Whats that, currency collapse and debt default? Oh, too bad, too bad.

What about Indonesia, once a marvel of low cost manufacturing and tourism? Gutted by the Asian financial crisis (read currency swindle) and undercut by Chinese prison/slave labour? Gosh.

Stay off the claret Col., you're having flashbacks to the 1980s when ppl might have believed such nonsense

Liam “Right, right, Col Rouge, and the uber-capitalist China is democratic HOW, exactly?”

Show me where I have ever suggested China represents an example of merit on anything, until then, you are simply showing your ignorance.

Those of us who are grown sufficient to wear long trousers remember China a mere 20 years ago was drowning under the dead weight of Chairman Mao’s communism, as reinforced by his deranged wife (and the other three). China as an example, is only any good when compared to what China was before the current cycle of modernization and free trade. That same free trade which the children of the left would denounce as they run amok in Melbourne trying to incite a Biff with the Police.

I recall Nixon’s visit to China was met with mixed feelings. On reflection, such enterprise was the first step to trade liberalization, which has opened up a country which lived for too long behind a bamboo curtain of repression far worse than that which it practices today. That visit might be considered the pinnacle of an otherwise lamentable presidency.

Argentina is typical of the post Spanish / Portuguese Colonial corruption and repression. I have often wondered if it has something to do with the corrupting influence of the Church of Rome, the same Catholicism which infests Eire, Liam.

As for Indonesia, the victim of its own corruption. There is good evidence to suggest the modern Democracies should re-colonise some of these places, however, I do not see much hope of that in the near future.

As for claret, whilst not an abstainer, I rarely drink wine, and would, if offered, prefer a light and effervescent Lambrusca than some disgusting thick and heavy French plonk.

To your own tastes, if you snippety post is anything to go by, I would suggest you stick to mineral water, anything heavier is sure to rot the remaining brain cells and reading you, it would seem you do not have many of those left to go around.

But I believe in free choice, I leave you to choose your own swill.

Col Rouge:

My aren't we sensitive (not) and abusive (yes)!

I suggest you spend some time in Africa and see how difficult life is there before you hurl your little snipings at others who make a half rational comment in public. I have worked there, and know EXACTLY how hard life is - especially outside any city or town.

You obviously have no idea how the large global finance (IMF and World Bank) organisations operate. Do you honestly think that they are ther for the benefit of the recipient countries? Duh... the WTO is only TO BENEFIT ITS MEMBERS ! I think you need a good lesson in the economics of global politics (and re-read Liam's post for starters).

About the only thing you said that was correct is that education is partly the solution. Now, perhaps you might have a few constructive suggestions as to how the average African villager might have their children educated if:

1. They don't have enough to eat EVERY day.
2. The local warlord regularly threatens to kill their children if they don't give him all their food/money.
3. The local government school has few, if any resources (I mean paper, books, writing materials).

(All reasonable suggestions will be forwarded to the relevant on-the-ground aid workers).

After you have done considered all of the above, and worked for a few years in regional villages in Africa (with the villagers), you can come back here and tell us about your views on poverty.

Until then do not presume to lecture us with your western, self-righteous claptrap.

Col Rouge, blaming the victim went out with wife beating, or are you writing from the Liberal Club?

You claim my examples of China, Indonesia and Argentina are not good examples of capitalism due to the failings of their peoples - "too corrupt", "too catholic" (straight out of the bigots handbook of cliches).
So which country is your light on the hill? The US, with millions behind bars and increasing malnutrition? Australia, with its govt-mandated monopoly businesses and routine feather bedding for resource extraction corps ? eg. 150% tax deductability for oil & gas exploration, diesel fuel rebates. Name the exemplar for this neoliberal fantasy, cos i'm sure it exists only in the self-serving fantasies swapped by corpulent white males.

I regret the name calling, but you did start it, implying i was a lefty! Lucky we're not in a pub or i'd have to shirtfront you :) Your pal former US (Republican) President Nixon was a duck squeezing lefty too you know, by current economic fundamentalist standards, reserving more forest in national parks than i believe any other US president since.

On your call for recolonisation, what do you think globalised free trade (at gunpoint) is? Private wealth simply eliminated the administrative class of colonial public servants, instead using the legal fictions of corporations (backed by the fiscal enforcers the IMF & World Bank) and mercenary force (Kroll, Sandline, Group 4, Blackwater, etc all save on transperancy/PR and war widows pensions). That defenders of this neoliberal War on Terra can call themselves Conservatives is foul infamy: they conserve nothing, steal the best and waste the rest, all the while spouting bumf about a rising tide lifting all boats! The 'rising tide' has lifted all yachts, sure.

Gee Liam!

That was fantastic!

Iluvatar “I suggest you spend some time in Africa”

Actually I have been there, business trips years ago.

Have you? or are you just shooting the breeze?

“The local warlord “

And is he in the pay of the evil white dudes?

“The local government” I suppose they are part of the white mans conspiracy too.

Now
“After you have done considered all of the above, and worked for a few years in regional villages in Africa (with the villagers), you can come back here and tell us about your views on poverty.

Until then do not presume to lecture us with your western, self-righteous claptrap.”

Well, sweety, the same rules of free speech which allow you to humiliate yourself with incessant whining, are the same rules which allow me to post, what you consider, is my “self-righteous claptrap”.

So, I guess, you can get used to them because, I will be stopping in no time soon, enjoy and learn or suffer.

Liam “good examples of capitalism” oh they are not good examples of anything, capitalism, socialism or stupidity but I guess for your quality of post, such sublety does not matter.

As for name calling, I am used to it. I only respond with like. If you want to keep up your prattle feel free to do so, as I said to the other troll, “the same rule of free speech etc.” I quite enjoy “troll bating” but your responses seem, in comparison, to be more like master bating.

re “shirt fronting”, I would likely be stepping over your shirt, a “two pot screamer” makes for a poor debating foe and with all you bravado and bluster, I would think 2 pots of heavy is well beyond the required level of lubrication.

Well, maybe we can end with a rousing chorus of “le internationale”

In the version I know, the phrase “working class” and “kiss my A**” are part of one of the versus, and another has something about a young lady reclining on the Rock of Gibraltar.

Good lusty stuff, Enjoy!

Col Rouge:
Quite a wide sweeping rejoinder but I notice you didn't answer any of the questions put to you.

Iluvatar:
You have a point about the hardships of African peoples.

It appears to me that a lot of poverty is caused by the cycle of violence and corruption in these places.

My friend's wife was born in Africa - she left because of that very fact. No future. She said Zimbabwe and the Sudan are about as overtly bad as it can get but other countries are just as bad but we don't hear about it.

So, it also seems that we all sit back here in our wealthy "hobbit holes" and pontificate, very few are prepared to DO anything. What to do?

I applaud the celebrities of Bono and Geldorf, not for their soft-touch Aid Concerts, but for their efforts in consciousness-raising in the GXX nations.

How long can we, as moral individuals (well some of us anyway) sit by and not at least say something to political leaders. Just throwing money at the problem is NOT an answer. (Frequently this aid assistance simply lines the pockets of the corrupt government officials).

Any thoughts anyone?

Agreed FU2!

If we look up the leadership ladder, the problem is there.

Although they would convince you it is someone else's doings and a mighty media to assist them.

Or in the case of Africa. Out of sight, out of mind!

It may take the Ebola to migrate before our leaderships stand up and take notice that the cure was better solved from the source.