AL

You clearly highlight how the label terrorist can be used and abused by self righteous nations. Some of those killed in Gaza no doubt were terrorists (if some were prospective suicide bombers their demise came early), but many were innocent civilians.

Israel continues to be unconstrained whenever it practices State Terrorism in Gaza or Lebanon. By State Terrorism I mean bombing and shelling civilian areas with a high risk of civilian casualties and a likelihood of terrorising the population.

The US is the only country that can hold Israel back but actually assists it in a joint US-Israeli strategy to aggressively police the Middle East. Australia meekly supports the US stand regarding Israel, just as Australia meekly supports the US on all other aspects of the Middle East, including Iraq, Afghanistan and a denial of any substantial Saudi connection with terrorism.

The Jewish vote in America and a highly effective Zionist propaganda machine (everywhere) mean that the US and Israel will continue their joint strategy regarding Israel’s neighbours. A test though will come over Iran's nuclear weapons development program. Will the US assist any Israeli bombing of Iranian nuclear sites or won't it?

Meanwhile many Gaza civilians continue to be bombed and shelled as an act of religiously sanctioned revenge – sanctioned, according to many Israelis by the Bible (a disturbing twist).

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Yes Al,
You “believe that only international pressure on Israel can bring a nation addicted to violence to heel and leadership on both sides mature enough to negotiate with honesty.”

Iran’s President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
on Monday, “Israel is destined for destruction and it will disappear soon,’’.
on Tuesday, “I’m very hopeful that we will be able to hold the big celebration of Iran’s full nuclearisation in the current year,’’.

So Al I am sure you have the plan to get this to work for BOTH sides. Please explain a little further. A few people may be interested.

And you state Israel's long-term future lies not with a superpower thousands of kilometres away, but in the Arab world.

Maybe that should read

Arabs nations long-term future lies not with a middle age religious mindset and diminishing oil reserves propping arm sales but in democratic reform.

Notice that most of the more wealthy and stable countries seem to be democratic?
If they cannot deal with their own problems internally how does anyone expect them to deal with external issues

Fishy... unfortunately, with this 'chicken or egg' situation, people ask "Kassam or Missile"... which caused which?

Well... I don't think it really matters because people like this author have a set view that its 'egg' or.. 'missile' and in any case I doubt that they care, because their agenda is something different from what we might expect.

Is it..'social justice for Palestinians AND Jews' ? No..it not about social justice its about a socialist approach to society.

Anthony, like John Pilger and sad company, are of the view that you can put diametrically opposed people side by side and they will magically just 'get along'.

Logic and others have clearly articulated the problems with the supposed solution proposed by the author and his ilk.

The general socialist approach is...

ONE state. All Palestinians have right of return, country is run on a secular basis for all.

Now this has so many holes in it, that it would make a good seive.

It neglects

1/ The religious aspects. (Orthodox Judaism and Radical Islam)
2/ The Cultural.
3/ The Political. (once all Palestinians are allowed to 'return' they will outnumber the Jews and seek political representation accordingly.

This last point has been made well in just this past week by Hamas demanding more say and basically threatening to overthrow the Lebanese government if not given.

Planta... you might provide some input here?

Hamas would still be present, and have strong support among Palestinians, and their charter would still be the same. The infantile gullability of those who proclaim "There election campaign did not include the destruction of Israel" is totally meaningless when their constitution says otherwise. People might have ELECTED them on a more benign platform, but that does not change one iota their real agenda which is based on radical/fundamentalist Islamic ideas about 'Moslem Lands'.

If anyone can actually ARGUE persuasively that I'm wrong here.. by all means do so, but DON'T just repeat/chant sloguns or mantras !

Background. "Palestinians live under 'ISLAMIC' law. Ok.. they understand it... they know it... they breathe it...

INTERNATIONAL LAW.
The latest Israeli massacre in Gaza - the killing of 19 Palestinian civilians ...- occurred precisely because the IDF regularly fires shells into heavily populated areas. Under international humanitarian law, a state is prohibited from such activity if the attack is likely to cause undue harm to civilians and will not gain any military advantage.

ISLAMIC LAW.
Chapter 1 : REGARDING PERMISSION TO MAKE A RAID, WITHOUT AN ULTIMATUM, UPON THE DISBELIEVERS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INVITED TO ACCEPT ISLAM

Book 19, Number 4292:
Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m". ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops

Chapter 9 : PERMISSIBILITY OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE NIGHT RAIDS, PROVIDED IT IS NOT DELIBERATE

Book 19, Number 4321:
It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

COMMENT You can only 'know' that women and children are present if you 'see' them. Mohammeds final words are telling "They are from them"

In other words.... its no big deal, they are all one and the same.

"ALL_palestinians_are_fighters" (Arafat)

Radical Muslims do NOT accept "International Law" except where they can see it as a tool for advancing their Islamic agenda.
International Law is a tool of Socialists. You can stick it.

Boaz,

“ONE state. All Palestinians have right of return, country is run on a secular basis for all”

FH: This is how it was run prior to 1948 under British colonies.

“1/ The religious aspects. (Orthodox Judaism and Radical Islam)”
FH: radical religious groups can be contained in a secular society. You also ignored that militant radicalism flourished after the land conflict.

2/ The Cultural.
FH: what does that mean? Arabs and Jews lived together as one culture for thousands of years until early last century. Unless you mean European Jews and local Jews (Ashkenaz and Saphardeem).

3/ The Political. (once all Palestinians are allowed to 'return' they will outnumber the Jews and seek political representation accordingly.
FH: Although this was the case initially, Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) lived with Jews until the state of Israel which in essence was a separatist movement. If they are all in one country as it was and all have equal rights, what is the motive for any of them to fight the other?

As for your comment re the prophet of Islam, here is an unanswered challenge since 1976 by Ahmed Deedat “Mohammed in the Bible”

http://www.jamaat.net/muhinbible/muhinbible.html

30 years waiting for a response from the church until he died.

Boazy, you keep asking for it and your house is made of glass:).
I won’t let you of the hook that easy anymore,

Peace,

Antony,

With the news of each latest Israeli atrocity in the Occupied Territories, it's easy to get the impression that Israel and the entire world Jewish population have gone stark raving mad.

It's reassuring to hear a bit of sanity sometimes.

Boazy

You asked "Planta... you might provide some input here?"

regarding

"3/ The Political. (once all Palestinians are allowed to 'return' they will outnumber the Jews and seek political representation accordingly.

This last point has been made well in just this past week by Hamas demanding more say and basically threatening to overthrow the Lebanese government if not given."

Well I'd say there has been sufficient animosity built up between Israelis and Palestinians to preclude stable coexistence within one democratic system.

On Hamas "threatening to overthrow the Lebanese government" I haven't been following things closely since the 2006 War To Free 2 or 3 Israeli Soldiers (in theory). I'd be surprised if Shiite Hezbollah, who are the strongest military force in Lebanon, would permit Sunni Hamas types to really seize the Lebanese government - a short term marriage of convenience if at all.

Its a mess getting worse. Hezbollah may well have 20,000 rockets now and Iranian nuclear weapons seem just round the corner...(potentially hidden anywhere in Iran or offshore). Also its unknown whether the Christian Republican Right (a la Bush) has sufficient power over the US armed forces to guarantee support for Israel. Israel would be feverishly working on the Democrats.

Pete

I say that the West should pull its troops out of every trouble spot in the world and stop supporting Israel with weapons or whatever they are accused of doing. Why do the sons of the West have to continually put themselves at risk to stop other peoples wars.
Let the Arabs and Israelies fight it out and get it over with.
Disband the united nations they are useless.

If we didn’t have satellite television to beam these constant tribal conflicts into our living rooms and the war technology and transport to get quickly to these trouble spots like 100years ago,then we wouldn’t be able to mount all these peace keeping missions anyway. For thousands of years these tribal wars have rages all over the planet and now suddenly we feel its our place to go and try and stop them all.

If two tribes are determined to wipe each other out then it cant be stopped forever, unless the West is prepared to keep troops there for centuries and even if they did as soon as they left the fighting and massacres would probably just start all over again.

The Arabs sided with Hitler in World War 2 and plotted with his generals to wipe out the Jews. After the War the West was left with the problem of where to put all of the displaced Jews. None of the Western countries wanted to take them so they let them flood into Palestine. So now the bitter territorial fight that once raged between the Germans and the Jews is now raging between the Arabs and the Jews. The problem has just been moved

To be Jewishly anti-Jewish is the luxury of only one who is unwilling to fight for the survival of Jewishness under the existential threat that is posed by Islamic fanaticism.

Loewenstein is doing this all in the name of his inveterate leftist ideological pride and purity. But the ideologues of the left are morally and intellectually a WITHERED species.

SEE:http://power-politics1.blogspot.com

Here's a Google video which popped up over the last few days:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6454254219830064032&q=The+Real+Enemy+of+the+Jews

To a godless technocrat like me, this seems to be logical and well argued. It shouldn't give offence, but no doubt I'll be chastised by someone out there.

Your weekend viewing...

Fellow Human ,

If the Arabs and the Jews lived together so happily as you say, then why did so many millions of Jews flee to the state of Germany(immigrated).
Why did the Arab leaders side with Hitler and help him in his goal of wiping out the Jews

I sometimes think that the widespread condemnation of Israel is indicative of racism - not against Israel and its Jewish population, but against the Arab world. There often seems to be an undertone of 'they should know better' - that we can condemn the Jewish people because they are civilised, educated and KNOW that what they are doing is wrong. And there is no point in condemning Arab atrocities because they don't know any better.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it. Israel is surrounded by violence, and Israel regularly involves itself in that violence. But it is also surrounded by rational people who surely understand as well as many Israelis do that violence from both sides is wrong.

We don't just need to condemn Israel - hell, that has never worked in the past. I don't have a solution, but I have been alive and politically aware long enough to see countless summits, talks and ceasefires fail.

Well said Anthony

David Boaz

Now David remind us all. Why was it you think Israel should b e allowed to carry out ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

David Boaz

It is you who is tied to dogma. Tell me when is the next scheduled Palestinian election?

Looks like Israel has been too clever for its own good.

The Jews without doubt do not lack intellect. Their success in Israel is not only related to plant husbandry - including saving water with innovative ideas, but also in military technology. Israel right now is easily the world’s most powerful small nation.

Next door, unfortunately, are also sons and daughters of Abraham, the Arabs, but a tribal line born of a different matriarch. In fact, according to the more nastier critics, though they may look alike, the differences between Israelis and Arabs is as striking as the difference between chalk and cheese.

Different to the Jewish religion, which despite historical persecution has remained surprisingly positive, today’s frustrated Arabs are more likely to look at suicidal bombing as a thankful escape from an uninspiring life.

Recently the Arabs have advanced to using low-range rockets, the Israeli airplane retaliation strikes ten times as severe.

Nevertheless, before the movement of Jews to Israel as the result of the Hitlerite Holocaust, the few Israelies permanently living in Israel and Palestine got on reasonably well with the Arabs.

Worrying the desperate Palestinians even more, is that in the late 1970s the US illegally allowed Israel not only to go nuclear, but also the chemistry and know-how to build its own arsenal of atomic rockets, not only filling the local Arabs with rage, but angering Iran to the point that the former Persia is now well ahead with nuclear site construction, most of it underground

Summing up taking the scientific overhead view, there is little doubt that US favour of Israel has gone much too far, which in political science language has with the added nuclear weaponry of the US and Britain on the side of Israel, got Arabic nations, including Iran, well askew of an ethical ME power balance.

No wonder there is so much Islamic terrorism in the world.

Yes, certainly Israel will lose even it wins. It is so interesting also that we have former so-called undemocratic nations like Russia and China, coming out on the side of fair play.

Reality check:
Islam was not a problem before 9/11.
Islamophobia is a product of the Israeli agenda.

It is a war on two fronts, one is militant Islam and the other is socialism, both being founded on ideals grounded in fantasy.

Antony says that the international community practices hypocrisy when condemning the democratic election of Hamas. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organisation by Australia, Canada, UK, EU, Israel, USA, and banned in Jordan and has a stated policy of promoting obliteration of Israel and therefore cannot be equated with the election of Avigdor Lieberman, who is regarded as a right wing politician.

The Hamas Covenant cites the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a work of fiction created by the Russian secret police. Hamas accuse the Freemasons, Lions Club, and Rotary of being organizations promoting "the interest of Zionism." Hamas also accuses those organizations, and the "Zionist invasion" in general, of being "behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds."

In addition Antony says that Israel lost the war in Lebanon. This was not a war it was a battle, the war is ongoing. There is no evidence that supports the contention that the recently smashed Lebanon has won any war or battle.

Antony mixes opinion with lies and parades it as "truth"

What utter rubbish.

This idea that Israel wants to commit violence is irrational drivel.

It seems to me that a simple way of analysing, among the mayhem, of who is in the right is to see how they live, how they treat the vulnerable in their societies, how they treat those of other religions.

Yes, you all already know don't you.

Well, for those who don't, let's look at a few simple things that should help you make up your mind.

Palestinian terror groups, one of which is now the government (indicating that the people are genocidal maniacs given Hamas charter, of not removing settlers but of conquering greater Israel) launch attacks from mosques, ferry ammunition around in ambulances, use women as shields, and much worse, whearaes Israel doesn't.

In fact, if we elaborate on this, we see that Palestinians play on Israel's humanity, as they hide in mosques, shoot from mosques because they know Israel won't attack a house of worship.

I wonder if they'd reciprocate?

Sucked in though, because those women Hamas cruelly ordered to be shields just recently, to smuggle terrorists out of the mosque, were shot at by Israel.

Will they learn? Of course not.

To hide in mosques, shoot from them, ferry ammunition in ambulances shows that the Palestinians KNOW that Israel are humanitarian, and they play on that to their strategic advantage.

Does Israel indoctrinate it's children to be suicide bombers at young ages?

How many of you Muslims here know that Hamas regularly uses mentally disabled teenagers to take bombs over?

How many know that, since Bethlehem was given over to Hamas, Christians have had to flee due to persecution. It was bad enough under the PLO, but unbearable under Hamas.

How many of you know that Muslims don't care about Palestinians at all? How many have protested about the appalling conditions Palestinians are kept in in nations like Lebanon, & Jordan?

They can't leave the camps to work or live in the community, as their hosts won't tolerate them as equals.

Nice people.

Benjamin, maybe Israel does not want to commit violence, as you say. But surely with nuclear-tipped rockets ready to fire, let us say that Israel is much to over-ready for it, which in scientific power-balance language means that the opposition, the Arabs, are morally right to do the same.

No need to take sides here, but if the Arabs can't afford to match Israel, in power-balance theory, Iran as an ally, is entitled to be the Arab's protector.

There are some interesting books in university libaries on the subject, Benjamin. Not so much about GWB's God and Evil, but more about World Court Ethics.

Keith : ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians – So the mass graves and execution squads I am sure we will see them exposed soon. Strange that countries at peace with, having accepted, Israel (Egypt and Jordon) seem not to be having many battles?

Bushbred “ little doubt that US favour of Israel has gone much too far.” Or maybe it in favour of the one true established democracy in the Middle East. But if you want them to support the Syrian and others who’s stated aim is the destruction of a democracy. Well that is sad.

“US illegally allowed Israel not only to go nuclear”. Gee I thought the French provide the technology? But are you saying that the US should have intervened somehow to stop them going Nuclear. So you agree they should stop the Iranians?

“But surely with nuclear-tipped rockets ready to fire, let us say that Israel is much to over-ready for it, which in scientific power-balance language means that the opposition, the Arabs, are morally right to do the same””

So you reckon that in to protect them selves the Arabs morally can do the same. By that same argument the Israelis had the right to protect themselves by using FRENCH help to go nuclear to protect against all the Arabs nations who stated aims was the destruction of Israel. A country that

Israel, the 100th smallest country with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, was one of the very first nations to offer substantial aid and to send medical rescue missions to Islamic people in the stricken tsunami areas. Israel mobilized 150 doctors and relief teams as well as an 82-ton planeload of supplies for Sri Lanka. Israel also sent aid to India and Thailand.

The scientific technology employed by NASA to beam video images from its Mars land-rover back to Earth was developed by two Israelis.

An Israeli group of scientists from the Israel Institute of Technology developed methods to improve the efficiency of solar-hydrogen, non-polluting powered cars.

Continued

Continued...

Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem where medical staff — both Jewish and Arab — work together to save Jewish and Arab lives.

Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood

Israelis have developed very advanced hydrology technology that allows crops to grow in the most arid conditions. Israel has shared this technology with other peoples, including the Hopi Indians.

The X-Hawk rotorless helicopter, the first helicopter to have the capability to move in tight spaces, is now in development in Israel.

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel. The Pentium MMX chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Voice mail technology was also developed in Israel. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree is about 18 -20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli trees are now yielding about 400 pounds a year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

The article should read "A country a beakon in its own region."

Source for content I have misplaced. sorry.

Big Fish, you already know that praise has already been given to Israel from this side of the argument. Have had a fair bit to do with Jews as a farmer trading in wool and also made good friends with Australian Jews in
the military during WW2.

Anyhow, this Middle East problem should be handled by a World Court, and not a court made up from political appointments. Certainly the biggest weakness of modern democracies is the allowance for ruling parties to fill positions in a judiciary that should be above politics. Social scientists have been grumbling about this for years - with nothing done.

Further, talking about democracy in the Middle East, Big Fish, there was an interesting article in the Guardian last year about an Iranian female judge, who still retains her position, even though she talks about Iran needing to be more democratic.

Yet at the same time she heavily slates both the US and Britain concerning the way as so-called democratic nations
they virtually take possession, as they did with her country just after WW2, placing in the puppet Shah, and commandeering the oilfields. She believes the Arab countries are quite capable of working out their own democracies.

With our record over the years in the Middle East, Big Fish, the only sort of democracy we will ever allow is the old colonial Dyarky democracy, meaning double-rule, with all key government appointees matched by a British commissar.

The only difference if Iraq is ever captured tne commissars will be American, able these days to do their dirty work from the White House

israel was established by jewish terrorists, european invaders supported by american money and guns.

a 15% population of jews can not establish a jewish state by voting, so the zionists replaced voting with military violence. then, after establishing themselves with mass murder, the zionists ask "why won't our neighbors leave us in peace?"

they are rather like bandits who decide to stay in a home they have invaded, who complain endlessly that the owners, and their neighbors, won't stop throwing stones through the windows.

the zionists will get peace when they invite their moslem neighbors to join them in a secular state of palestine. the south africans managed a similar integration, and it's likely that all the peoples of the middle east would welcome this (only) just resolution of the situation.

if the zionists can not endure the thought of not being members of a religious state of israel, the present state of chronic guerrilla war will continue for generations but end the same way: in a secular state of palestine. this path to the same end will kill and maim thousands more, and make jews who support zionism despised around the world.

Palestinian Jews, Muslims and Christians did live peacefully side by side until the exclusivist Jews took over in former Palestine. This has been very well documented. But unfortunately for the "Jewish State" the people they have been evicting, massacring and victimising since the 1930s are not the pushover that was confidently expected. Slowly but surely the Palestinians are expanding the resistance and acquiring educational and technological parity. The only possible peaceful future will be a secular democratic state. (It works here and elsewhere). Otherwise it should be obvious that an increasingly insane and dangerous Israel will one day face its nemesis. Meanwhile I and my friends are ashamed of our government at present: not only one of only two states to refuse to sign Kyoto, but also one of only seven out of 192 to vote against a UN motion condemning Israel for the recent murder of civilians.

Demo and Kang

What biased and inaccurate information you peddle.

Israel was not established by Jewish terrorists and half of its Jewish population is not European but middle eastern in origin. There were some terrorists on both sides but the Jewish gangs were at least of holocaust background and fighting for their existence. Some of them did bad things. So did the Arabs who attacked and slaughtered Jews who had lived there for hundreds of years.

The Jews applied western science and agricultural techniques allowing a tiny impoverished land to support a large population. The surrounding lands are not achieving anything remotely like the same results, suggesting some entrenched problems there. And don't blame Israeli occupation for that, I include oil rich countries which Israel has not attacked.

I know of no Islamic state that has ever given Jews or Christians completely equal rights in law or education with Muslims. Israel in common with all western democracies has given Muslims those rights. This does not mean social acceptance, no state can ensure that.

Regarding Israel's objection to a single state with a Muslim majority, who can blame them given the track record of such states? And regarding the question of force used by Israel what practical suggestions can any of you offer?

Get real!

Palestine: Peace, not Apartheid

It’s the title of a new book authored by former President Jimmy Carter.
Not surprisingly, some US politicians took issue with the book’s title before it was even released however more water is given to Jewish citizens than to Palestinians; non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel; Israel's policies have involved planning regulations prohibiting Palestinian building on 40 percent of Gaza, 70 percent of the West Bank and 80 percent of East Jerusalem. While restricting Palestinian development, Israel builds housing for its people in the occupied territories. Imprisonment without charge is commonplace for Palestinians, whereas this would be forbidden for Jews. There are also Jewish-only highways that cut through the West Bank .

A few years ago, the Israeli government was shown to have a 70:30 policy in the City of Jerusalem which to maintain a 70 percent Jewish population over 29 percent Muslim and 1 percent Christian minorities. This has been accomplished through home demolitions, denial of building permits, ID card confiscations, and residency revocations.

This year also saw many Palestinian-Americans denied entry by Israel to the Occupied Territories to visit families, or attend weddings and/or funerals. And then there’s the ugly concrete wall, built far into Palestinian territory under the guise of security, ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004. Laypeople who’ve seen it nickname it the Apartheid Wall or the Land-Grab Wall.

Nobody expects instant miracles to come from Carter’s book, but hopefully, it will spark the sort of robust discussions that even Israeli society and media already engage in – discussions that many are fearful to raise in our own country for fear of being labeled “anti-Semitic.”

Chad

Typical Arab propaganda. Make sure you are differentiating correctly between Israeli citizens who are Muslems or Christians and those in the occupied territories who are not Israelis. Rather than reading a book authorised by an ex-American President how about reading the Israeli legal code.

And regarding the wall it does in some places go into occupied territories which can be considered unjust but it is there to stop murderers from their nasty grizzly business of blowing up people. The Israelis find that distressing as would any Australian.

The reasons for limitations on movement are because of the habit of a number of outsiders of carrying explosives with them. No civilized society can tolerate that.

One book that appeals to your viewpoint, ignore all the rest. And don't throw in that carnard that anyone who objects to the Arab view belongs to a Jewish lobby or accusations of anti-semitism.

For as long as good followers of Islam try to apologise for the murderous fanatics within their ranks the rest of the world will suspect all of them. Lay off Israel it is a tiny piece of land do something good with all the rest. That means stop blaming others and get to work. Even Kofi Anan is getting tired of the Islamic governments.

Arab propoganda?

Perhaps South Africans who lived under a brutal apartheid regime would be offended by the title. Yet, interestingly, South Africa’s own Bishop Desmond Tutu and others have referred to the Israeli Occupation of Palestinian Christians and Muslims as 'Israeli apartheid.'

How are the situations similar? Well, in a 2002 speech in the United States, Tutu said he saw 'the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.' Back in 1999, former South African statesman Nelson Mandela told the Palestinian Assembly: 'The histories of our two peoples correspond in such painful and poignant ways that I intensely feel myself at home amongst my compatriots.'

South African author Breyten Breytenbach, who spent nine years in prison for resisting apartheid, wrote in 2002, "I recently visited the occupied territories for the first time. And yes, I'm afraid they can reasonably be described as resembling Bantustans , reminiscent of the ghettoes and controlled camps of misery one knew in South Africa ."

Chad

Carter has a long history of being anti-Israel.

It is time that Muslims took a good hard look at themselves and the left looked at the Israeli side.

The long history of Palestinian terrorism against Jews -- which began in 1929, when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ordered the slaughter of more than 100 rabbis, students, and non-Zionist Sephardim whose families had lived in Hebron and other ancient Jewish cities for millennia -- was motivated by religious bigotry. The Jews responded to this racist violence by establishing a defence force.

Christians were also targeted in most Arab lands. A one state solution as you would like would see would inevitably mean Jews and Christians treated as dhimies and classed officially as second class citizens and be encouraged to leave as they were in Egypt and Lebanon.

In Israel the equivalent does not occur despite your desperate search for authors who agree with your incorrect view. Bishop Tutu should look no further than Darfur to see how a people are really persecuted.

Face up to it, Israel is tiny, half its Jewish population has a middle eastern persecuted background and most of the fighting was started by hostile Muslims. The fact that Israel with its small population has had the maximum success, in living standards and technical progress as well as militarily is surely an indictment on Muslim leadership who use Israel as a scapegoat for their own short comings.

Loewenstein's article is a hodge-podge of unsupported and unrelated accusations, presented without any context, and strung together under a nonsensical headline, as if together they somehow form an intelligible argument -- Beit Hanun, negotiations with Syria, Lieberman, Diaspora Jewry, charges of rape, corruption, military solutions that have failed, blah blah blah. From this incoherent non-argument, Loewenstein draws an appropriately muddled conclusion: Israel must be pressured and brought to heel.

Pressured how? To do what? And how exactly will this vague pressure bring "leadership on both sides mature enough to negotiate with honesty"? Is Loewenstein satisfied with the current leaderships and governments of the Palestinians and Israel’s other neighbors, or should they also be pressured and brought to heel? Does he approve of their military and diplomatic policies? Is he satisfied with the activities and opinions of their diaspora populations? No word from Loewenstein.

I shouldn’t be surprised. Loewenstein’s website helpfully provides a link to this review of his book: http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=1311

Mr. Loewenstein, a 57-year old Muslim woman -- a perfectly innocent civilian just going about her life -- was recently killed before her husband's eyes in a horrendous attack close to Beit Hanun. She was simply crossing the street near her home -- a heavily populated area that is regularly shelled. Her body parts were found scattered over a 50-meter radius. Her murderers are the leaders of a nation in serious decline, whose peace movement is virtually non-existent, where corruption is rampant, and whose "military establishment" is addicted to such "military solutions", despite that they have failed miserably to achieve their aims.

There have been many such events. From what you write, I would expect you to consider growing militancy from the victims of such bombings, their families, their neighbors, and their people, to be justified.

But this Muslim woman, the mother of a colleague of mine, was Israeli, and she was killed in Sderot by Palestinians firing from Beit Hanun.

Chad, President Carter explicitly stated that the "apartheid" in the title of his book refers not to Israel but Palestine. Carter: "Inside Israel, there is no semblance of apartheid, it's a wonderful democracy with everyone treated the same. Arabs and Jews both have the same privileges; there's no allegation of any kind of discrimination."

Thus, your accusation that "non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel" is mistaken, and simply not true.

What President Carter won't tell you, although it's perfectly true, is that the most apartheid-like practices in the West Bank and Gaza are those of the Palestinians, themselves. For example, under Palestinian rule, selling land to a Jew is a crime carrying the death penalty. And many sectors of the Palestinian population, including Christians; political dissidents; Muslims who oppose fundamentalist rule; and those judged too friendly to Israel, Israelis, or Jews, are regularly persecuted by their own government.

To answer some of your other accusations:

-Jews as well as Arabs can be subject to administrative detention without charge, thanks to the draconian security regulations we inherited from the British.

-There is no 70:30 policy in Jerusalem; Jews constitute less than 70%, and since 1967 the Arab population has grown faster than the Jewish population. And recall that when eastern Jerusalem was under Jordanian occupation, there was a strict 100:0 policy – Jews could not live in Arab-ruled Jerusalem then, and Jews cannot live in Arab-ruled Palestine today. If portions of Israel’s capital are given to a Palestinian state, the situation there will be the same. Even official Palestinian negotiators have concluded that the large Jewish neighborhoods in eastern Jerusalem must remain under Israeli rule in any peace agreement: Palestine, with its apartheid-like policies, does not want to incorporate a significant Jewish population.

-97% of the security barrier is not a concrete wall but a fence, it is not built "far into Palestinian territory" (most of it closely follows the Green line), and it is unfortunately necessary due to the Palestinian suicide bombings, which are war crimes and crimes against humanity. See http://www.idf.il/media/fence-eng.wmv

Did you know that Palestinian license plates in Zionist entity are color-coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

Did you know the United States awards "Israel" $5 billion in aid each year?

Did you know that yearly US aid to "Israel" exceeds the aid the US grants to the whole African continent?

Did you know that "Israel" is the only regime in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

Did you know that "Israel" currently occupies territories of two sovereign nations (Lebanon and Syria) in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?

Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the so-called "Israeli" Defense (read Offense) Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed by the IDF?

Did you know that "Israel" refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?

Did you know that "Israel" routinely confiscates bank accounts, businesses, and land and refuses to pay compensation to those who suffer the confiscation?

Did you know that the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders, is the Jewish AIPAC?

Did you know that "Israel" stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

Did you know that it was not until 1988 that "Israelis" were barred from running "Jews Only" job ads?

Did you know that four prime ministers of "Israel" (Begin, Shamir, Rabin, and Sharon) have taken part in either bomb attacks on civilians, massacres of civilians, or forced expulsions of civilians from their villages?

Did you know that the "Israeli" Foreign Ministry pays American public relations firms to promote "Israel" to Americans?

Did you know that "Israel`s" settlement-building increased in the eight years since Oslo?

Did you know that settlement building under Barak doubled compared to settlement building under Netanyahu?

Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

And finally do you know who the terrorist is now?

I came across an interesting video today

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7594290623147041732&q=Crimes+of+Zionism&hl=en

You can’t deny the truth.

Chad
"Did you know that Palestinian license plates in Zionist entity are color-coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews? "

Stop this nonsense. Sganot has explained how you misquoted Carter. Can you really expect any more credibility?

A problem with UN declarations is that voting is largely based on the number of countries voting and not the number of people in them. There are a large number of small Islamic nations so they have voting rights way out of proportion to the numbers of people they represent, and they vote in a block. Most of them are lead by despots.

The reason that Israel occupies foreign territories is because their inhabitants, or rather their leaders threatened to destroy them, attacked them and fired roockets at them. They continued this even after they were defeated in their hideous aims. They then brainwashed children to kill themselves while they killed Israelis in total disregard of international stsndards of morality and of the Koran.

Even Kofi Anan is getting fed up with them.

If the Arabs in Israel want to leave for other Arab countries there is nothing to stop them. I notice that they don't. I also notice you don't live in these Islamic countries prefering to enjoy the better way of life that we have established. Do you think the Israelis don't want to preserve the same standards for themselves?

Chad,

1) False. Jews and non-Jews in Israel use the same yellow plates. The PA is a different jurisdiction, and has its own plates.

2) False. Currently, annual US aid is ~$2.6 billion.

3) False. US aid to Africa exceeds US aid to Israel.

4) False. Pakistan declined to sign. Iran signed, but what good did it do?

5) False. Israel withdrew from Lebanon completely.

6) Prisoners of war? It happened to terrorists in the Bus 300 hijacking. As a result, the head of the Shin Bet was forced to resign.

7) Whom?

8) False. (Where do they come up with this stuff?)

9) Yaaawn… 7-year-old “news”…. BTW, AIPAC isn't "Jewish". And gosh, the most powerful lobby is the menacing, nefarious American Association for Retired Persons.

10) Name them. If this is true, it is a damnation of the Security Council, not of Israel.

11) Do you have some reference for this claim?

12) You may have missed a few...

13) Good.

14) Oslo didn't include a settlement freeze, it's been more than eight years (you are regurgitating old propaganda) and the period since Oslo also saw unilateral withdrawal from all 21 settlements in Gaza and 4 in the West Bank.

15) False. Netanyahu was PM for ~3 years, during which the settlement population grew by an annual average of ~7.8%. Barak was PM for <2 years, during which the settlements grew by ~7.9% annually. You forgot to mention that Barak put forward peace plans that would have put ~97% of the disputed territories under Palestinian sovereignty, done away with most of the settlements and normalized the situation of the rest. From that point, there would be no more settlements or settlement growth. Arafat turned it down.

16) Palestinians are of course a minority among the world's refugees. But because of the unique way in which the UN defines Palestinian refugees, as opposed to all other refugees throughout the word, and the unique way in which their situation has been artificially maintained as a weapon against Israel, their refugee status has persisted grotesquely and numbers have grown unnecessarily.

17) Yes.

Chad

Do you know that the Prime Ministers of Iran and Palestine are calling for the destruction of a complete state recognized by the UN? What other governments are doing such a thing?

Do you know that the Palstinian refugees are the only war time refugees not rehoused by friendly nations elsewhere?

Do you know that some middle eastern nations are publishing anti-semitic filth including quite sick cartoons and even the naive hoax "Protocols of Zion."

Do you know that recent refugee problems in the world are largely occuring as a result of regimes claiming (falsely) to be Islamic?

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. The Islamic world has made its own bed and only they themselves can change that. The Americans mistakenly thought they could solve the problem by getting rid of the evil Saddam. Initially the citizens rejoiced but then the Sunnis and the Shi'ites started killing each other.

Blaming others just means that the real problem is ignored and gets worse and worse.

I’ll address logic’s first rebuttal because unlike some, I’m not paid for PR.

Color-coded license plates for non-jews in “Israel.”

http://nigelparry.com/diary/ramallah/plates.html
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2006/11/ban-on-palestinians-in-cars-with.html
http://www.annadwa.org/news&reports/e-newsletter/letter5.htm
http://www.imemc.org/content/view/22770/1/
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/578/60/

President Jimmy Carter asserts in the book that “Israel’s” current policies in the Palestinian territories constitute “a system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights.”

http://www.forward.com/articles/carter-book-slaps-israel-with-‘apartheid’-tag/
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11400
http://tearsforlebanon.wordpress.com/2006/12/01/palestine-peace-not-apartheid-former-presidet-jimmy-carters-new-book/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Peace_Not_Apartheid
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/11/15/18329970.php

“If the Arabs in Israel want to leave for other Arab countries there is nothing to stop them. I notice that they don't. I also notice you don't live in these Islamic countries.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28316-2005Apr5.html
http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/newsletter2005/saudi-relations-interest-01-21.html
http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/archive/2005-04/2005-04-08-voa3.cfm?CFID=7696105&CFTOKEN=53923230
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6fa2e087fffe075985256fda0070b8d0?OpenDocument

Lowerstein is channeling Dr Goebbels.

Chad

It shows how superficial your reading of these web sites is. The one on number plates distinguished between "Palestinian" and "Israeli" number plates. Different countries different number plates. Not between Muslims and Jews.

The Wikopedia reference hardly supports Carter's book. Did you actually read it?

None of the sites given by you in reference to my comments about Israeli Arabs being free to leave even mention them.

Please learn the difference between Palestine and Israel. All Israeli citizens have a vote and equal rights in law. They are different countries. You seem to have some confusion on the subject. And read articles before quoting them.

You seem to be blinded by your prejudice.
You can’t deny the truth.

Chad

Read those websites, they just don't say what you claim they do. You are the one that is blinded by predjudice.

For your information I have a University degree and am very capable with the English language.

I find it hard to believe that you actually read into them the claims that you made. I cannot force you to think but I do ask other readers to take the trouble to click onto those sites and read them rather than to believe your often ridiculous claims.

Chad

On a previous post if I am not mistaken you are the one who believed in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a fake if there ever was one.

Color-coded license plates for non-jews in “Israel.”

Jewish settlers living in Bet El settlement near Ramallah do not get plates with an "R" on an orange background. They have yellow Israeli plates. In other words, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Jews and Arabs have license plates that show their race. - ref. http://nigelparry.com/diary/ramallah/plates.html

A ban was imposed on 'Palestinians' riding in cars with Israeli license plates (Israeli license plates are yellow with black writing; 'Palestinian' license plates are white with green writing, so the two are easily distinguishable). - ref. http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2006/11/ban-on-palestinians-in-cars-with.html

President Jimmy Carter's Book

“Because of powerful political, economic, and religious forces in the United States, Israeli government decisions are rarely questioned or condemned." ref. http://www.forward.com/articles/carter-book-slaps-israel-with-‘apartheid’-tag/

In April 2003 a "Roadmap" for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was announced by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan on behalf of the United States, the United Nations, Russia, and the European Union (known as the Quartet).The Palestinians accepted the road map in its entirety but the Israeli government announced fourteen caveats and prerequisites, some of which would preclude any final peace talks. ref. http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11400

Arab Countries

The report presented a harsh assessment of Arab governments' efforts to stifle political freedom, saying political participation in the region has "often been little more than a ritual" and elections typically preserve the status of "ruling elites." ref. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28316-2005Apr5.html

The report, which also charged Israel with impeding the political and economic rights of Palestinians, said the U.S. detention of Arabs and Muslims as part of the war on terrorism was undercutting efforts of reformers to make democratic changes in the Middle East. ref. http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/newsletter2005/saudi-relations-interest-01-21.html

All these quotes are from the first two sites of every arguement which i generously extracted for you.

Chad

Regarding number plates, the Palestinian administration issues Palestinian number plates not Israeli number plates, as you would expect.because Palestine is not Israel. In Israel the Israeli administration issues Israeli number plates regardless of religion or background. The Israeli and Palestinian number plates happen to be of a different colour.

The settlements are regarded as part of Israel and therefore Israeli number plates are issued. I agree strongly that the settlers should not be there. The number plates are not colour coded according to religion and Israeli Arabs, both Muslem and Jewish are given indestinguishable Israeli number plates all of the same colour. What in fact the Arab governments outside of Israel do is not the responsibility of Israel.

So President Carter sided with the Palestinians. Both of the President Bushes, President Reagan and President Clinton took an opposite view. What does that prove?

You quoted a report that showed up faults on both sides. Good, you are now showing less bias.