Yes. Multiculturalism has “had its day”. It has always existed only in the minds of dictatorial politicians who never consulted Australians before forcing it on us, and among left extremists who think fiddling with the makeup of society is fun and believe in that ridiculous mantra “in diversity lies strength”.

Most people don’t give a damn about the silly concept, except for the cost of propping up and encouraging “ethnic” organizations, as well as government departments devoted to policing naughty people who say something nasty about someone else’s culture or habits. The cost and trouble multiculturalism has caused in its 40 odd years is enormous, and some people are still yammering about it as though it were a good thing!

It is strange that they still feel the need to defend it, if it is such a wonderful idea.

This ex crony of the discredited champion of social engineering, Al Grassby, was actually commissioned to write this article. It seems that the out of date pro multiculturalists are feeling insecure; they think that they still have to push, push, push.

Fortunately for most of us, including new immigrants, they cannot tell us what to think, and we can get on with more important things, continuing to live the way we always have without the need to “embrace” the stupid ideas of minority elites.

Oh. I forgot the cost. That still galls, of course.

Andrew,

Good and sensible article.
Multiculturalism 'the theory' worked for the US due, in part to a good immigration policies and management.

If there are problems in Multicultural Australia, we need to look at the way we implement it.

Peace,

T

Great article.

But multiculturalism has always been under threat. That is, the Australian people have always felt threatened by newcomers.

In the 1960s I remember very strong antipathy towards European immigrants - i.e. who did not come from British or Irish stock.

In the 1970s the same for Vietnamese refugees.

In the 1980s and 1990s we saw strident racist campaigns against Asian immigrants.

Now attention has focussed on Middle Eastern people. Ironically, some of that racism has come from people of European decent, (former 'Dagos'), people who faced discrimination and vilification themselves back in the 1960s.

The anti Middle East phenomenon will subside in years to come and the focus will turn to some other unfortunate group. I expect black Africans that have taken up refuge here in recent times.

But despite these campaigns of intolerance, Australian society has steadily built itself into a robust, diverse and tolerant society. Many of the formerly despised peoples now occupy high position in our administration, community organisations and business.

True, in the 1980s we generally felt good about multiculturalism, priding ourselves on our national tolerance and rich diversity.

But nothing much has changed over the decades, except that the current campaign against multiculturalism comes at a time when the world feels less secure.

Insecurity has little to do with immigration policy, but multiculturalism is, nevertheless, a convenient whipping boy for those insecure folk who feel like lashing out at something.

They will settle down in time.

Andrew:

That's a panoramic view of some of the ethnic weldings that have happened in Australia and elswehere in the last 60 + years.
Forgive me if I make a few tiny, trivial (perhaps) comments.

1. I think we underestimate the power of feeling different, and feeling alienated. I walked through Germany once with a pleasant guy who entertained me by telling jokes about black men and their large appendages, day after day with no repetition.. He grew up in North Carolina in a time of the earliest school integration.
There were riots of some kind on beaches in Chicago,when people first saw large numbers of black people's bodies semi-unclothed.

2. The Daily Telegraph in Sydney has been running an anti-migrant, anti-Muslim line - perhaps because it senses the resentment among ordinary working-class Australians for the privileges that seem to be given to Muslims.

3. And the media have been identified in the police report on the Cronulla riots and their aftermath as important contributing causes of what happened on both sides. Who controls the media..??

4. Universities have been runing scared for some years. No Aborigine must be allowed to fail. We must at all costs show our sympathy for Muslims. No confrontation must be allowed which could show the university as unsympathetic to migrant aspirations, even if these people have been blatantly plagiarising. ALlowing this fear to dominate proper university testing and toughening of students only helps open the gates for resentment, as we saw at Macquarie last year. A sensible middle ground must be found between the extremes.

So once again Andrew, a fine piece which opens up many worrying issues. I fel that politicians will, like the Tele, sense the mood and push back the privileges extended to many migrant groups. It will be difficult finding a sensible common ground betwen Aussie triumphalism and ethnic polyglot diversity. We need good people to steer us through the issues and inform the electorate. The politicians only follow the throng, as we are seing with the turnaround in American opinion on Iraq. The people choose, and leaders follow.

Another valuable and thoughtful contribution - as well as a bit of a history lesson.

And Leigh................................. this boat has sailed - we are knee deep in immigrants and I am loving it -

Multiculturalism is the cultural status quo in Australia. Those who oppose it have the onus of:

a. showing they properly understand it; and
b. showing why we need governmental intervention to dismantle it.

Conservative opponents of multiculturalism have failed to show any proper understanding of the concept and of how it plays out in reality. Is it any wonder, then, that true conservatives like Tony Abbott continue to support it?

Omigod! The author went to "Lithuania, then to Japan, Shanghai in China and, finally, to Australia". Today mate you'd be told to rack off and be satisfied with being alive, and not go seeking illegal entry to our wonderful white country.

Well said, Irfan & Sneekeepete.

Can't work out Leigh where you're going with your post. "The cost and trouble multiculturalism has caused in its 40 odd years is enormous" 40-odd years? Why not 140? It's closer to 240. It's only since WWII Australia decided to give it a name and harness it; the "cost" of ignoring it would have been immense. Since I'm not a dictatorial politician, you'll need to accept there are some of us who prefer a little variety in life.

Not all monoculturalists are terrorists, but all terrorists are monoculturalists.

I'm yet to hear of a hijacker, suicide bomber or totalitarian zealot who had a multicultural outlook on life...

I normally regard sociological theories, and especially any talk of some sort of "collective psyche" as a load of hogwash, and I probably should continue to do so, however...

Given the suspicion with which newcomers to Australia since 1788 have always been greeted, I'm wondering if there is some sort of psychological-projection-whatsit going on, whereby the mob who are already here project onto the mob who has just arrived, all the undercurrents and unacknowledged tension that persist because this land is yet to be ceded by formal treaty with the original owners.

We have a habit in Australia of blaming entrenched problems going back years on people who just got off the boat five minutes ago. We direct to them the fear of disease, of raping women, of causing trouble, of taking land and wealth; despite the fact that we were doing a pretty brisk trade in all those things before they got here.

I reckon that must be pretty much how some locals around here felt in 1788 towards the settlers too. In other words, are we 'channeling' the hatred and fear that the original owners experienced? Is our denial of that situation driving some sort of over-compensation of hostility toward newcomers now? Does suppressed guilt bubble up as triumphal bluster and bravado? Maybe if we cleaned up our act and reconciled with the first Australians, those ghosts would be put to rest, and we could move on to a new chapter with a less troubled back-story?

I dunno. I don't believe in ghosts, or projection-mawhatsit, or being "in denial", or any of those psychological theories, and I don't know much about them and I care less - but there seems to be some poetic resonance there all the same, yes?

Multiculturlism has finished. Poeple only fight over differences the biggest differences for humans being Race, Culture(<in which religion is apart of). One would ask what a Homogenous, Peacful, Prospeous society can gain from this diversity. Uniformity of its people both racial and cultural served Australia so well for so long and was the very reason why so many people wanted to immigrate. One can clearly see that it is Uniformity of Australia and not diversity that made it so great in the past to the recent present.. so why do we now beleive diveristy is better option for our future?
Young people are being told this at an impressionable and programmable age, that against all reality and statistics that diveristy is good no matter how obsurd it actually is. We look back and we think "OMG THEY ACTUALLY YOUSE TO SACRIFICE PEOPLE SO THE CROPS WOULD GROW"
what will the vast majortity of white australians say in the future, as they reflect on past generations.

what will the future of australia look like.
* Its a police state, no ones fighting(much)..but free speech and way of life is greatly diminshed
* "WOW that imploded"
to youse who say that wont happen, I regretfully inform you that 1 of the 2 will, and i would add the remark "IS THIS A RISK YOU WOULD LIKE TO TAKE"

Political correctness is one of the more infurating things, but is on the way out, as it affects the majoirty of people in any given situation: if its racial, white people are affected, if its religous christians are affected i.e "no christmas lights" if its sexual preference, hederosexuals are affected "fairy penguin name now banned."
if you are a hederosexual white christian you might feel slightly frustrated< UNDERSTATEMENT
yet, given, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS still remains.

*ps my first ever post, 18year old in touch with reality and not fantasy

Unfortunately Professor you are at the interface where public opinion collides with the fictioneers who wrote the multicultural policy. Professor, you forgot to mention that in the 60s 91% of the public expressed opposition to multicultural ideals but I s’pose that small detail is of little importance.

I hope you aren’t too concerned about the abuse of Shanghai Jews professor. Some of our newly arrived simon-pure guests have indulged in their own brand of abuse. Recently we’ve had the head-line grabbing idiot from the 7th century giving us his version of tolerance. Who can forget one young female tennis player and her family who found nothing worthwhile in us. This girl’s father called us a nation of ‘bitch prostitute and criminal.’ In an artificial society the soft left trope of ‘tolerance’ is to be practiced by the host nation only or so it seems.

Professor, it’s interesting to dwell here a moment and think about the ludicrous situation of an eleutheromaniac whose only desire is to taste freedom. Perhaps he is fleeing oppression in his own country. What is the first thing that upsets him? FREEDOM. Not only that but the oppression he is feeling is the type of oppression he wants imposed on women. Hello tolerance. Has anyone seen tolerance? Toss in the fact that he’s a bigot and a racist. How on earth is your policy going to deliver social cohesion and crush racism?
I wonder if the Royal Flying Doctor Service, as it seeks funds to update its fleet, celebrates the fact that SBS and the various arms of the multicultural industry are well funded. One report puts the funding of multiculturalism at AUD$7.2 billion per year. How many life-saving Beechcraft King Air aircraft would that buy?

Professor, there is little point in identifying evil if we don’t act. An eidetic picture comes to mind of a deported criminal and the campaign to bring him back because he couldn’t speak the language of his birth country. Shouldn’t his situation have been a reason to celebrate ‘difference’?

Professor, you’ll have to learn how to apply tolerance.

"We live in a world now where unease about the “other” has escalated dramatically".

These are the words of the writer, yet it seems, as does most of his article, that his idea of reality is totally inverted.

We don't just live in a society, and world, where there is unease about the ethnic other, we live in a world where entire generations are indoctrinated to hate, to want to kill, the ethnic other.

Where the ethnic other is impure because they don't dress like us, and their morality is inferior to ours.

The problem is, those like the writer can't stand the idea that almost all of the racism in our world today, and in Australia, is perpetrated by non-whites.

Most are unwilling to face up to the fact that comments by Hilali about non-Muslim (non-covered) women asking for rape are widespread, as seen in the 70 or so racially motivated pack rapes that were investigated in 2000-01.

One year!

The idea of supremacy as well, is totally inverted by the writer. Again, Muslims in particular hold to the view that non-Muslims are immoral, and as we saw with the Hilali controversy, not only do nearly all Muslims agree with his views (as he is still there, no protests to have him removed) they, as I (having lived out in the trenches) always have known, most think white western women are sluts and whores.

Tanveer Ahmed, the Muslim Psychiatrist, is a breath of fresh air, as he tells it like it is, namely, that the vast majority of Muslims feel superior to us.

This attitude applies to most non-western ethnicities.

I wonder what the leftist herd tell themselves when they hear the liks of a Tanveer Ahmed. The cowards likely ignore his insight, pretending rather that he is some sort of anomaly.

It's interesting that the writer says many people are against multiculturalism now, and I hope so....

The good professor repeats one of the great multicultural pieties: only a tiny minority are the problem, the "vast majority" are all model citizens.

What rot. In the case of Muslims we know that in many Muslim countries support for terrorism and extremist Islam are actually frighteningly high. You can google Pew Global Attitudes and see that this respected survey group has found up to half of the populace in countries like Morocco and Egypt have been right behind ol' Osama bin Laden and his atrocities. In the UK, support for terrorism among Muslims has been polled at 20 per cent.

Why are we to believe that in Australia, these attitudes among Muslims suddenly plummet to negligible levels? It's simply crude propaganda. Of course these sort of surveys just aren't done in Australia, lest the results contradict the official line. Even when the grang mufti himself declares September 11, "God's work against oppressors'', we minimise, excuse, or just plain ignore his baldfaced support for mass murder.

....To implement a policy that protects redneck cultures from being criticised (how one can't be angry that infidels aren't allowed to swim next to pure, burqa-clad, Muslim women - and so must get out of the pool or cop a bashing by a gang of racists) is the height of intolerance, and it's great many now see multiculturalism as the racist policy that it is.

The writer must understand that all non-western European cultures have to offer is their food, although even then, only prepared according to western cultural standards, where meat is refridgerated and kitchens cleaned.

The morality of non-western cultures is backward, and only in this sense would I agree that there is a superiority attitude.

Then again, migrants agree that western values are superior since they flock here in the millions.

All we want is for them to leave their racist ethnic hatreds back in the cesspits they left.

If the writer thinks it is racist to want to expose racist cultures, he won't find many agreeing with him.

Multiculturalism is why feminists never attack Muslim beliefs, or why Greens Senator Bob Brown can hang out with the redneck Keysar Trad.

In some ways, Hilali did us a favour. To know that almost all Muslims agree with his sick views (which we know not only from mosque goers chanting "Allah Ahkbar", the Arab radio station 2ME saying all it's callers support Hilali, as well as there being no protest to have Hilali removed, NO Muslim leaders condemning him, and so on) means we can start dealing with it.

It seems the western world let in millions of rednecks, and I fear that we'll see in Europe (it will happen there first)governments voted in that go against their own tolerant nature.

MULTICULTURALSM PROTECTS REDNECK CULTURES FROM LEGITIMATE CRITICISM!

Old socialists, nipple-fed intellectuals never die. They just morally and intellectually wither away.

Professor Jacubowicz's support of multiculturalism is an infantile belching of the barren ideas that eventually, in our times, would put multiculturalism in its coffin.

SEE:"Multiculturalism:How a Pet Idea Became a Dinosaur".
http://www.con.observationdeck.org

Obviously.

nice to hear from a young bloke mate. Good first post, a bit emotional but still you tell it as you see it.. good4u.

MINISTRY OF CULTURE is to be appointed (mark my words) and the term 'Multi' is to be dropped completely. This ministry, will be tasked with the process of integration and assimilation without apology. Its guiding sentence will be 'many parts, one body' and while each of those cultural parts may be varying expressions of human culture, they will be all dovetailed into the predominant 'Australian' culture.
There will no longer be emphasis on the 'nose' culture or the 'ear' culture, what is a nose or an ear without a body ? Its so 'obvious' :)
The ministry of culture will be to strengthen and emphasise the BODY ...not its individual parts.

IMMIGRATION and CULTURE. All immigrants will be informed of:
a)The nature of Australian society.
b) Their abiding responsibility to assimilate and integrate in terms laid down by the Federal Ministry of Culture.

EMERGENCY SERVICES and CULTURE. All emergency services will be restructured to provide a reliable service based on the 'Body' culture not the nose or ear parts. Emergency service personel will be trained in 'emergency services' not 'cultural adapation'.

There will be no further references to, or training in, any other culture except the 'Body' culture.

A nose without a body to attach to is useless.

FAILURE TO COMPLY with this direction will (not might) result in.

a) Racist knee jerk backlashes
b) Violence and competitiveness.

If anyone doubts the non viability of 'Multi' culturalism they need read no further than this:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20761540-2703,00.html

Wow... such a surprise..Hezbollah is not happy to have 'Multi' culturalism they WANT IT ALL. and this, sadly is the nature of competing socio/religious/cultural systems. They have "different agenda's". If their agenda is not working out..simple solution get RID of that which impedes it..or FORCE it to follow....which is exactly what they are doing. ( I can't wait for the flack :)
Cheers MC supporters.

Leigh, I’ll try again for the umpteenth time to get you to provide some hard facts behind your assertions.

You made reference to

“dictatorial politicians”
• Who are these politicians, which party, when and where?

“Most people don’t give a damn about the silly concept”
• How do you know what most people think, have you conducted your own surveys?

“propping up and encouraging “ethnic” organizations”

• Which ethnic organisations are you talking about here? The Greek Clubs, the RSL?

“government departments devoted to policing naughty people who say something nasty about someone else’s culture or habits”

• Which state and federal government departments are policing?

“including new immigrants”

• Which new immigrants?

Why am I asking you for clarification you might ask? (given I have already written you off as a narrow minded bigot long ago).

The simple answer is this. I know full well you can’t answer me with credibility and this proves multiculturalism is working. Ironically, its people like you who provide all the goods reasons why we need multiculturalism big time.

Go on - prove me right again or don't answer at all. We all need a good laugh!

Leigh, I’ll try again for the umpteenth time to get you to provide some hard facts behind your assertions.

You made reference to

“dictatorial politicians”
• Who are these politicians, which party, when and where?

“Most people don’t give a damn about the silly concept”
• How do you know what most people think, have you conducted your own surveys?

“propping up and encouraging “ethnic” organizations”

• Which ethnic organisations are you talking about here? The Greek Clubs, the RSL?

“government departments devoted to policing naughty people who say something nasty about someone else’s culture or habits”

• Which state and federal government departments are policing?

“including new immigrants”

• Which new immigrants?

Why am I asking you for clarification you might ask? (given I have already written you off as a narrow minded bigot long ago).

The answer simple answer r is this. I know you can’t answer me with any credibility and this proves multiculturalism is working. Ironically, its people like you who provide all the goods reasons why we need multiculturalism big time.

Go on prove me wrong!

Yet another multiculturalism article with the same old responses. Its all a left wing plot (even though introduced by the coalition) or an anti Islamic rant.

Get used to it guys we have many cultures in Australia and everyones idea of the "dominant culture" is different.

Ho hum, yawn.

'migrants agree that western values are superior since they flock here'

My Father made my Mother and I ( i was 10 at the time and only knew about Australia from what i read in a kid's book - it had weird, deadly animals) migrate here in the 70's because he was sick of going to work in the dark, coming home in the dark, getting a pittance for a 40 hour manual labour job and freezing his manhood off in the winter months during each trip. The only two 'Australian values' he considered were warm daylight and the ability to be understood (We speak English as our first language) - and the ability to earn money to put food in his family's mouth. Every migrant will have their own reason, not the one's you imagine.

Try actually checking your facts before you make ill-informed comments revealing your stupidity and bias.

'All we (I) want is for them to leave their racist ethnic hatreds back in the cesspits they left'

So Benjamin can be free to keep his redneck racist ethnic hatred here where it can remain unchallenged by different views to his own.

The biggest problem i see with multiculturalism is that it encourages rednecks from one country come into close and enforced contact with the local rednecks without requiring either of them to respect anyone who does not think exactly like them or to do as they are expected they 'should' by 'decent society' (as seen by the eyes of the commentator).

Correct me if I am wrong - but didn't Hitler have a policy to ensure multiculturalism had no place in his ideal society?

A culturally 'pure' society is not necessarily a decent one. All society's have law breakers and discontent radicals within them.

Too right David. Leigh has a dig at so-called 'elites' (y'know, the ones not in power), while DB takes the opportunity, again, to paint all Muslims as world-dominating maniacs, plus a little glimpse of how a totalitarian response would work. Benjamin seems to believe being white is as close to perfect as we're going to get; while for many others, 'showing tolerance' is akin to 'being reasonable and seeing it my way'.

Well folks, today's Australia is largely immigrant, largely multiculral, was so before we were born, and will be so once we're gone. We can make all the laws we like but nothing will alter the tendency of people (you, me, immigrants alike) to seek an environment they're comfortable with. If you happen to dislike foreign culture, foreign ideas, foreign languages, old belief systems, and discovering that immigrants are a lot more like us than you think...then today's Australia is NOT the place for you.

Well, Steve Madden, it may be "Ho hum, yawn" in the sense that all this heat and friction over multiculturalism is embarrassingly petty.

But there are undercurrents out there that these discussions bring to the surface and are important to recognize.

I'm talking of course of the Boaz "Ethnic Cleansing" David rants (OLO fora passim).

Here they are again, predictable as Christmas and as subtle as a 747.

>>MINISTRY OF CULTURE is to be appointed (mark my words) and... will be tasked with the process of integration and assimilation without apology... The ministry of culture will be to strengthen and emphasise the BODY ...not its individual parts.<<

Melbourne bootmakers are already ordering quantities of shiny black leather in anticipation of its formation, and the tailors are firing up their workshops to churn out those tasteful black shirts, together with suitable badging. They're betting heavily on double lightning forks.

>>IMMIGRATION and CULTURE. All immigrants will be informed of:
a)The nature of Australian society.
b) Their abiding responsibility to assimilate and integrate in terms laid down by the Federal Ministry of Culture.<<

The concatenation of immigration and culture ensures that we do not mistake this for an at-the-border policy. The enforcers here are the ones authorised to knock on your door at 3a.m. in order to provide you with instant education on the nature of Australian society, and the opportunity to contemplate its essence from the comfort of a repatriation camp.

>>EMERGENCY SERVICES and CULTURE. All emergency services will be restructured to provide a reliable service based on the 'Body' culture not the nose or ear parts. Emergency service personel will be trained in 'emergency services' not 'cultural adapation'.<<

Not entirely sure what he intends with this edict. Apartheid, I suspect, at minimum.

>>FAILURE TO COMPLY with this direction will (not might) result in.

a) Racist knee jerk backlashes
b) Violence and competitiveness<<

Yep. You have been warned. Step out of line and the men in those nice new uniforms will pop round to your place for a quick whacking.

Now that will make Australia a better place to live, won't it?

You can't force integration. The 20th century is full with examples where this has failed. From communist suppression of the orthodox church to fascism to the stolen generation, people kept their cultural identity and forced integration has failed. I can't think of a single example where forced integration has succeeded.

Forced integration = ultra nationalism.

The current attacks on multiculturalism are based on Europe's identity crisis. Europe has for centuries been the source emigrants. ie Europeans left Europe to seek a better life in the US, Canada, Australia Argentina and the like. However since the 50's guest workers on "487?" style visa flocked to Europe and decided to stay. Recently Euros have woken up to the fact that there are many immigrants in their countries too. This coupled with the expansion of the EU and loss of sovereignty to the EU has given European countries an identity crisis. eg What does it mean to be dutch, will the dutch language go the way of Gaelic in the next 100 years? Frisian has already gone that way. Anyway what does it mean to be dutch? Speaking the lingo, being able to taste the difference between Gouda and Edam blindfolded? Being able to rattle off the names of soccer stars past and present? Belonging to the dutch reformed church? Belonging to the dutch hervormde church?

Howard and Hanson have jumped on the same bandwagon and have taken on all these issues that are not applicable to Australia. It is time that we take the debate back. Australia is a nation of immigrants. Each wave of immigrants will change Australia a little bit, but by the second and third generations the new migrants are as aussie as the rest of us.

Oh Steve Madden, perhaps next time don't get out of bed, probably best for everyone.

Regarding your comment "everyone's idea of the 'dominant culture' is different", did you even think that when you wrote this comment you wrote it in the "dominant culture's" language and dated with the "dominant cultures" idea of time. So when our major newspapers, television programs, textbooks, on-line forums etc are written in langauge other than English perhaps you can argue your point.

Great article Andrew. Thank you.

I remember the Russian and Polish arrivals in Bondi too, and how the kids all got along regardless of their parents' fears, learning bits of new languages, hearing stories about things we could only imagine. Then the Pacific Islanders came and we learned to sing together without feeling awkward.

Grassby's amazing suits, Frazer's compassion, Keating's Redfern speech, multicoloured kids at my own kids' schools.

Life goes on regardless. It's a matter of individual choice whether you make the most of it or make yourself miserable complaining about it and indulging paranoia.

Sparkles

The origins of our current time measurement system go back to the Sumerian civilization of approximately 2000 BC. This is known as the Sumerian Sexagesimal System based on the number 60. 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour.

Sumer (or Shumer, Egyptian Sangar, Bib. Shinar, native ki-en-gir, (from Ki = Earth, En = (title) usually translated as Lord, Gir = (cultured) usually translated as Civilised, thus "the land of the civilised lords") was an ancient civilization located in the southern part of Mesopotamia (modern day southeastern Iraq) from the time of the earliest records in the mid 4th millennium BC until the rise of Babylonia in the late 3rd millennium BC. The term "Sumerian" applies to all speakers of the Sumerian language. Sumer is considered the first settled society in the world to have manifested all the features needed to qualify fully as a "civilization".

Why don't you go back to bed and dream of racial dominance.

Flack I predicted and sure enough...it came :)

Pericles.. I'm using the imagery from Paul/Newtestament of a body with many parts. Each having its own function, but.. integrated into the whole..the body.
Noses without bodies are useless... do I have to repeat this 50 times ?
All I'm saying, is that it's more socially and nationally beneficial in terms of harmony,to have all cultural subsets being part of, rather than being isolated/insulated from, the main body.

Sparkles picked up on the flawed logic of Steve, who indeed DID use the 'predominant' cultures language to make his post.

Pericles.. you always jump to either Adoph or Mosely as the intended direction of my 'rants'. I fail to see this.
For this to be valid about my posts, I would HAVE to be advocating 'everyone must become a NOSE and nothing but a nose' get me?
Am I saying that ? errr no.

Other critics leap onto the "white superiority" bandwagon. "You think you are better than us" is implied.

Then its "All an Islamist plot to take over the world"

YES, That is absolutely correct. Note the word 'Islamist' used in the sense of radicals. Let me QUOTE from an Arab Sheikh in Lebanon or Gaza or somewhere.. shown on the Doco "Obsession: the threat of radical Islam" spoken in English !

"We once ruled the world, we can do it again !"
Recent Al Qaeda statement "We will not stop till we blow up the Whitehouse"
British Intelligence "There is a plot to explode a Nuclear device in England"
Same source 700 active terror plots being monitored.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20759752-2703,00.html
<The Iranians want Saif al-Adel, a 46-year-old former colonel in Egypt's special forces, to be the organisation's No3, after bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri.>
Why ? Proxy use for nuke !

Now.. the thinking man sees this clearly. He does not immediately send all Muslims to Baxter because of this moron, but what he DOES do, is beef up intelligence, and protective powers to monitor the ONE community "from which" this element comes.

Good introduction to start with the "Negative" of Immigration, that is overwhelming Australian communities.

Got the gist of the vision, plan and agenda of Immigration. This has been said before.

Got a bit muddled up with the "Positives", before concluding, that multiculturism is alive and well and doing Australia proud.

I just take my "uncovered meat" and the "uncovered meat" and "infadel" of my family and live happily ever after.

Some comments on the article:

'We live in a world now where unease about the "other" has escalated dramatically.'

Really? Wasn't the "other" far more feared during the two world wars last century? Isn't it true that now most countries in the world have a far greater mix of ethnicities than 'before'?

Perhaps it is only the author's unease has escalated dramatically, or at least revived from 'back then'..

Tell me, Professor Jakubowicz, when you look around at Sydney now, compared to when you first arrived, can you seriously say that unease about the "other" has increased? In Sydney today the mix of culture and race is truly unprecedented.

I believe this hanging onto of old fears is what drives your ideological Multiculturism movement. So many people lost so much before they came to Australia, and many (like you, Professor) deep down are afraid that this might happen to them again. This shows clearly in the victim mentality so strongly presented here. You are not a victim anymore.

Many immigrants have no time for 'Multiculturism' - they just want to get on with their lives. They're not obsessed with trying to regain what they might have lost before. Important also is the fact that often the people who are able to 'escape' to Australia are/were the ones who could afford it! Like in the New Orleans hurricane, the poor were/are often left behind. It follows then that those who lost a lot of wealth in their previous countries perhaps lost degrees of prestige and power as well, and very much seek to regain it.

I heard a story recently about a man who lost his whole family to the Nazis, but his family was able to send him to the USA (he was only 12). Now, he is mega-rich. He lives in a massive mansion by a lake in Switzerland, with a garage for more than 12 cars carved into the hillside. His philosophy?: "I lost everything, so I vowed to become so rich and powerful that nobody could ever hurt me or my family again".

No more victimhood!

The multi cultural question is resolved - it is part of us. So I have know idea what the fuss is all about - unless of course one doesnt like the way we are - if that is the case too bad I guess.

YOu can clammer all you like but no oe will unscramble these eggs -

And BD it is time to walk away from the Islamic Dominance thing - it will given your insistance, and that of others, probably become a self fulfilling prophesy sadly - I know you are bif on the prophets - but this will be a socailly engineered outcome if ever there is to be one.

And dont be so sure that there arent other groups out there with dreamsof taking over the world - because there are: they too are mad - just like the Islamic extremists

Good piece, Andrew, and written from the inside. Alas, but as always, there are people who don't even want you to say anything at all. Just keep saying it. There are lots who read, think and act responsibly.

Oh dear...why do so many have have such an animated affection for foreigners? Are the chardonnay anti-imperialists at work here? Or is it something more sinister with multiculturalism becoming code for "I hate white people" (and I am sooo ashamed to be a westerner...sob...sob).

Get real people. Multiculturalism provides some with a means for power and control as demonstrated with the jailing of One Nation founder Pauline Hanson when the popularity of the One Nation party threatended the status quo. Can't have people voting out multicult can we?

Criticism of multiculturalism comes under the banner of 'hate speech' thanks to totalitarian racial vilification laws and helps to explain why not many people dare to speak against it, even on this supposedly democratic forum.

Not all multiculturalists are against equality but all multicultural societies are houses for tinderbox inequality (France, South Africa, Sudan (ethnic genocide currently taking place), Australia (violence at Redfern, Cronulla). Need I go on...better leave before I implicate myself as breaching any racial vilification laws that jails dissenters

Seeing that the author is a refugee for him to be critical of the Australian immigration program would be biting the hand that feeds you.
I think he should just be quite and thank his lucky stars that Australia was there for him when he need it. (And that goes for all other refugee’s)
Remember the refugee needs Australia! Australia does not need refugee! So if you are one of the lucky ones who manage to get into Australia you should be seen and not heard for you have no right to speak when it comes to the issues of this great country especially when it comes to deciding who comes hear.

Yes multiculturalism is here to an extent but it does not need aggravating. Once again it a story of why do we need people who care nothing about Australia becoming two faced and calling themselves Australians? I mean what can an uneducated refugee who can’t speak English and is culturally challenged when it comes to western civilization do that people who are already hear cant? Is it becasue there is a critical shortage of goat herders, suicide bombers and mad clerics in Australia that we contiune letting these people in? Please enlighten me.

Culture:
noun: the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group
the attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization (Eg: "The drug culture")
a particular society at a particular time and place
all the knowledge and values shared by a society
a highly developed state of perfection; having a flawless or impeccable quality

So what is multiculturalism? multiperfection?? mutliknowledge? multisets of shared values?

Australia has a unique and EVERCHANGING culture - to reflect the far more mobile populations we all share on our planet. Since the advent of cheap air travel and worldwide telecommunications (and the dreaded Global Economy) the genie is OUT of the bottle, people. The pathetic attempt of some to shove their heads in the sand while vainly trying to bung the cork back in the genie's bottle is a futile attempt to go back to a fantasy of the perfect world that has never existed.

Since 1770 Australia is, and always has been, the sum of all people in it and ruled over by a plutocracy, once dedicated to the UK for it's existance and now to both the US and Japan, with China coming up on the rails...

The current Muslim fanatic 'peril' was once the 'yellow boat-people peril' post-vietnam, the 'communist hoard' post WW2, the 'wog and dago' european hoard post WW1 and the chinese and afghan hoard during the 19th century gold rush, all of whom 'threatened' to turn us into their own society where the whites were the minority.

Australia did not survive because the whites all realised the danger and banded together to force these hoards to assimilate or deported the 'fanatics'. We survived because there is no threat to a society ruled by the wealthy.

Unless the morons can all stop fighting with themselves and see just who truly benefits most from any society in opposition to itself. And who are the ultimate 'losers'.

Thank you Andrew for a stimulating and challeging article. I was encouraged by Don Aitken's post to add my support.

My current focus is public education in rural Australia. Current political trends surely do advance "an agenda of supercilious and corrosive superiority, with an absolute disregard for the consequences." People of goodwill have been standing by. Probably because the political management of education in Australia gives lipservice to social justice. But the thrust of the educational change that is being promoted by government is towards requiring the narrow, exclusive and superior values of a conservative Australia that never really existed anyway.

Teachers in their community schools are still grappling with the task of learning for the realities of living in the ways that you described. Let the values of multiculturalism prosper, to enable the learners in those schools to contribute to "a modern cosmopolitan society."

The multi cultural question is resolved - it is part of us. So I have know idea what the fuss is all about"<sneekepete
As I type this in an extreme majority all white suburb, I cant help but think that statement is incorrect. The only time I am an active participant in this policy is when I eat chinese food.

As of last year we just excepted African refugees. Its obvious that the relocation from a poor african country to an australian suburb benefits the african refugees, but can you point out how this will benefit the majority of people in my suburb?
is it another case of extreme minority wins out against majority?(where not even asked the question *do you want to except refugees?*, b4 it is shoved on us!)
do you put a new piece of fruit and a dance move(multiculturalism) above the peacefulness and cohesian of the current community?

WHAT WILL MY COMMUNITY GAIN FROM THIS (african refugees)? AND WHAT CAN THE COMMUNITY STAND TO LOOSE FROM THIS? <fair commonsence question, wheres the on air live national debate about such fundamental issues?
Fact is, they need to learn(I could make a statment in these brackets but am worried about free speech in this country) alot of things to get on in this community i.e: english, how to drive a car, the currency,etc etc etc.
if we need Immigrants(i.e labour), would it not be an economically and socially a better option(not to mention common sense)to pick someone from i.e britain whos culture, language, way of life etc was considerably more closer to us.
there are enough british immigrants to choose from, as they are leaving there country at an exponential rate(can you put to and to together.)

I am a human and I have a soul, and when I see people starving in certain countries etc, i say i would like to help them, BUT NOT at the peril of myself family and friends, my freedom to feel safe and general way of life, we need to support them in their country

bennie stated "you'll need to accept there are some of us who prefer a little variety in life."
there is enough variety in a homogenous monocultural society, physically(genetically): green eyed red headed women, blue eyed dark haired women, blond haired brown eyed men(all of the one race) and culturally sport for example (afl in the southern states nrl in the northern)< but this is natural genetic and cultural diveristy, not fake forced diversity.
How much forced fake unnatural diversity do you want? and at what cost? there was enough natural diversity in 1930's australia without all the (no go zones and tribes, extreme crime of modern day australia)
"you'll need to accept there are some of us who prefer a little variety in life." YOU HAD IT, safely and naturally! pre multiculturalism!

Multiculturalism, defined as the abandonment of one’s own culture in order not to offend the feelings of those who have fled their “superior cultures” for the likes of ours, while in pursuit of protections afforded to them by their new country (formerly ours) in an attempt to utilize their new found freedoms to better the situations of their own kind, while using the cries of racism and xenophobia to establish a microcosm of their former countries on the unsuspecting and naïve new land they now call their own. Please, I take great pleasure in the thought of multiculturalism and its decline here in the states as well. For years I have had to listen to the mantra of the left and the need to embrace all cultures but my own. Why should I not take pride in the achievements of Western society? Why does the west continue to prosper? Why do so many millions flee their own countries for ours? I am not ashamed to admit I believe the West is superior in many ways and this doesn’t make me a racist to say so. We tell others to take pride in their cultures why is it different for those of European descent? Unless the West wakes up and realizes that millions are looking to take advantage of our laws and will exploit every loop hole they can under the protection of the moronic left, Western culture will fade into history just as the Romans did during their malaise that allowed mass amounts of foreign peoples into their society without proper assimilation and loyalties leading to their eventual decline.

Dear Andrew,

This is a great article! Multiculturalism has been tarnished in Australia in the last couple of years. We must do whatever it takes to make the Government and Australia's society realise that multiculturalism remains one of the most important values to Australia's regional and global identity!

Cheers,

Jieh-Yung

Obviously

I was happy to ignore your poor grammar and spelling in previous posts but I must pick you up on this one “As of last year we just excepted African refugees” I think you mean “as of last year we accepted African refugees”

Excepted means to leave out or exclude. So I guess you are saying as of last year we excluded African refugees.

Maybe an English language test should be mandatory before you are allowed to leave school. :)

Obviously obviously has learned to use SpellCheck since his/her first post.

It is to your credit as anyone who uses Youse (Used) and hederosexual shows their own ignorance more than their intelligence.

Perhaps obvioulsy might one day realise that SpellCheck cannot stop him/her using Excepted when they mean Accepted or tell him/her why to plus to doesn't make fore.

Your youth can be forgiven you - your limited wisdom can be appreciated and allowed for, but if you intend to make comments on this forum ( as is your right) you might do well to consider that almost everyone here has more intelligence than you and if they say something it is probably for a good reason ( just like you think you have - only they likely have more experience of why they could be wrong than you possess).

Read what they write - if you dont agree with it or understand it try asking why they said something - some (not all) will reply positively and you may gain in knowledge and wisdom - it will take a lifetime but the benefits exceed the disadvantages of not gaining wisdom.

You would be wise to learn that and give a little more thought to your next posts.

Welcome to OLO : )

It's obvious - obviously, how you might benefit from being knee deep in our swarthy brothers and sisters - As I so often find myself and indeed revel in them and their crazy un western ways

- I have lived in suburbs where I could eat the food of a different nationality 7 nights a week - thats one beneift - but marginal.

But you are an active part of it even when you dont know it - your taxes pay for multi lingual publications, interpreter services in hospitals and grants to organisation of Non English SPeaking BAck grounds - that must make you feel better straight away.

And if you are expecting African refugees - half your luck! to ask what benefit you will receive assumes that you deserve one in the first place -

it also presupposes their presence will have a negative impact - but after peoples heads stop snapping around taking a gawk - the pian associated with a sore neck will pass and all will be right with the world

What minority is winning what over whom? - if the rules let them in - and they do - although our gubment is trying hard to change that - in they come and adjust we do

There is no on air debate - no referendum - none needed: the building blocks are in place - we just need to sit back and feel the vibe - get jiggy with our African brothers and sisters.

Driving aint no problem neither is the money.

And we are not excluding the British.

I still fail to see how immigrants can be equated with a form of peril. Cant understand why you would feel unsaf

Ella Na Soo Thixo
Poso tha alaxo
Otan tha moo thosis
Kati na sfaxo
Ella valeh stihima
Yia na kerthiso
Afto then ineh pimma
Yia ta skoopithia.

English Chelsea fan (Hey!)
This is your last game (Hey!)
We're not Galatasary (Hey!)
We're Sparta F.C.

Surely we became multicultural when the First Fleet arrived. To the existing ancient culture was added two main forms of Chritianity plus Judaism.

The conservative Anglo-protestants have ever since tried to make their culture the only one but a monoculture was impossible.

Multiculturalism is the realisation that we are a range of groups, none of which has a God given right to wipe out the others. The Anglo-conservatives however are still trying to impose their culture on all the others. Each culture absorbs values from the others except where there are unbreachable differences. Then the parties should learn to accept each other.

As a Jewish descendent of 19th century immigrants I am in no way prepared to accept the concept of a virgin birth or a son of God but I have always had observant Christian friends who do and we learn from each other even when we can't agree. That is multiculturalism.

What has changed for me with the multicultural policy is that I do not have to regards myself as an appendage to Australian society. And to those who say we should all become the same, which sameness do you want? Perhaps we should all believe in the Earth Mother or would we all become Jewish?

The answer to you monoculturalists is that you don't know.

"Recently, disturbing trends have emerged within the broad body politic. As part of an increasing conservatism in contemporary politics, attitudes towards people have been changing. The Tampa election accelerated the process. Instead of respect and understanding of difference, leaders from both sides started to speak of difference in terms of threat, of not being able to fit in, of being “un-Australian”.

Leaders, who should know better, began to speak of Australian values as though the essential elements of a peaceful society are exclusive to this country and strange and unacceptable to some who have come to our shores. Particularly, disguised by the use of careful language, views many regard as extreme have been given respectability."

Malcolm Fraser
http://www.australiansall.com.au/

Justice,Security, a Fair Go

Logic... no, we did not become 'multi' cultural with the first fleet.

We had a number of different ethnoreligious groups who MELDED and MERGED and in spite of their various ethnic backgrounds (but they shared many common cultural traits such as language) they became.... AUSTRALIANS.

One potential problem (and it was rightly perceived to be a real one) was the issue of Irish Catholics and English Protestants. Given the history of Ireland under British rule, it would be completely understandable for this historic baggage to have come with the convicts and settlers. But its pretty much faded,gone.. and in its place we now have AUSTRALIANS (yes..I'm shouting that word)

What is an Australian ? He/She is one who loves THIS country and their part in it MORE than their own ethnicity. They are prepared to call themselves 'Australians' first and everything else is a poor second, and that my friend should include Jews such as yourself.
Being Jewish would only become an issue if the State asked you to worship idols or do something totally against your faith.
But if Australia is attacked by Jews.. you will either fight with us against them or at worst be executed outright or at best detained. Of course Israel will never do that, but you get my point I'm sure, and its not a joke. So that reasoning can apply also to Muslims, and Chinese or anyone.

The problem with "Multi" culturalism is that of (dis)loyalty under external threat.

Yung.. listen up dude. Lets say you are a persecuted, hated Chinese businessman in Indonesia, and China decides to step in and 'protect' its ethnic kin, errr are you going to fight them with all your strength along with the Indonesians or....?

SNEEKY... my goodness mate.. you need some hard work :)
I'll spell it out.

1/ Islamic RADICALS do.. repeat DO want to rule the world. (Did you see the doco ?)
2/ Moderates will NOT fight the radicals. They are too scared.
3/ Only USA supported regimes will fight the radicals.
4/ This is NOT a 'current wave of anti migrant ranting'.

BOAZ_David

Surely you don't really mean that the aborigines melded and merged with the newcomers, or that the newcomers even attempted to meld and merge with them?

And the Chinese were never fully accepted. During the Boer war and WW1 the Irish disputed the need to fight for the English. And besides everyone who is not of English, Scottish or Welsh background has problems with the issue of the English royalty and the idea of Australia as an Anglo-Saxon country.

The real issue of multiculturalism as I understand it is that it rejects the principal of Anglo-Christian cultural domination. Of course that distresses the conservative Anglos like John Howard who want everyone else to adopt their culture and norms and forget their own individaul cultural inheritance. They talk about a melting pot but don't want any ingredients but their own.

This has nothing to do with new groups who reject the dominant culture altogether. They are the ones who the rest of us all have a problem with. My personal belief is that anyone who wants to immigrate here is allowed to bring their own culture with them but must accept the dominant culture as a given.

obviously,

the world is bigger than you and your suburb, have a bit of compassion mate.

In response to the smug and condescending remarks directed towards the poster 'obviously':

'BrainDrain' - Who the hell do you think you are? "..shows their own ignorance more than their intelligence", "Your youth can be forgiven you..", "your limited wisdom can be appreciated and allowed for", "..you might do well to consider that almost everyone here has more intelligence than you..", "..you may gain in knowledge and wisdom - it will take a lifetime but the benefits exceed the disadvantages of not gaining wisdom", "You would be wise to learn that and give a little more thought to your next posts", "Obviously obviously has learned to use SpellCheck since his/her first post"..

How conceited and patronising! Tell me BrainDrain, what's the difference between 'hoard' and 'horde'? You used the incorrect word four times in one of your posts. You even spelt 'obviously' incorrectly in the same sentence that you were criticising that poster's errors (which happen to be errors made by many people)!

'Steve Madden' - "I think you mean 'as of last year we accepted African refugees'" - what on Earth else could 'obviously' have meant? People with the incredible intelligence of yourself and BrainDrain should realise straight away that 'obviously' is writing how he/she speaks, and in that sense expressed him/herself perfectly well! The content was pretty clear, and the thoughts and sentiments were genuine - in fact it contained no personal snubs, addressed the topic at hand and was generally quite polite.

'sneekeepete' - "..to ask what benefit you will receive assumes that you deserve one in the first place" - Another snobby snub! Australia's current Multiculturalism policy states: "This multiculturalism policy provides a framework for maximising the social, cultural and economic benefits that cultural diversity brings to all Australians". SO isn't it perfectly fine for 'obviously' to ask what those benefits are?
(ref: http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/settle/_pdf/united_diversity.pdf)

'Carl' - "..have a bit of compassion mate" - didn't 'obviously' say "I am a human and I have a soul, and when I see people starving in certain countries etc, i say i would like to help them"?

Yet again the sneekemeister is stung into action! a snobby snub indeed Ev! I think the kid can fight his own battles

I simply contend asking what is in it for me implies there ought to be something in it for me - and for some maybe there is nothing - so what? - I dont operate under that kind of Weltanschauung. Life is more than self interest for some of us.

He can ask what is in it for him and I can say maybe bugger all. That still does not remove the right of any one who is legitimately entitled to live some where to be bothered by others who feel uncomfortable about nothing.

And BD - To say say need some work indeed!

I agree there are Islamists who want to rule the world - In the words of Mel Brooks in The History of the World part 1 and reprised in Robin Hood Men in Tights and earlier still in the Pproducers "It's good to be King!" - a whole lot of people want to rule the world.

So did the Russians we thought and they thought that was an American plan - we think the chinese want to - or some do - like I keep on saying constant demonising of any group radicalises them - that does not abbrogate them of the responsibiltiy to play nive - or to forgive them their sins when they dont - it is just simply shows us the need to be sensible - and that is sadly lacking here from time to time

The dominant theme here is every that Islamist yearns thus as a collective - every Muslim who is not an extremist is just bidding their time or giving tacit supoprt - the basic tenet of the faith is to dominate the world etc etc

As for MC - the first fleeters did not meld and merge - the Irish for example were vilified - and that persisted well into the second half of the 20th Century - particualrly if they were Catholic

LOGIC
no, the Aboriginals did not by and large blend/mix interbreed, but some did.

The case of indigenous people who's culture is so vastly different from that of the newcomers, and who's physiology is so vulnerable to previously unknown diseases, makes them a special case.

Australia's identity has grown up largely apart from the Indigenous and they and/or their culture have not been assimilated into it.

This does not mean that such a goal is not a worthy one.

As i've argued in a separate discussion I think its a good idea.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=164

I had an interesting discussion with 2 yr 9 boys at Gym yesterday, they had not even heard of "Multiculturalism", nor could they articulate what is their own culture. but a few questions quickly showed they have one. "Does you mother serve each person individually or do you take food from common bowls set on the table" "What language do you speak" "What do you do when you are introduced to someone"

French Culture. "Kiss the hand of females/Shake the hand of males"
Maori Culture "Rub noses"
Japanese Culture "Bow"
Australian Culture "Shake hands of both genders"

Ours is just as valid as any other.

Let me be clear though, I argue in that link that the Australian culture of tomorrow should absorb as much good from our present cultural mix as possible. That way we will be enriched rather than divided.
I prefer the 'Body' metaphor... hands, feet, arms noses, ears..all are connected to the body and have no life of their own apart from it.
The "Body" is the culture which had come to be up to the end of WW2.

"Reflections on a Multicultural Nation"

My view is different as I do not believe we are a multicultural society. We have been multi-racial since 1788, but not multicultural despite the best efforts and millions of dollars spent since 1970. The term being adopted from Canada by Al Grazzby because it was fashionable.

The basis of our present day culture,adopted mainly from UK, is the rule of law,our justice/legal system and our democratic political system. We insist that these basics take precedence over any cultural or religous directive affecting all persons in Australia.

I cannot think of any other culture, maybe NZ, that is TOTALLY acceptable or in line with our Australian culture. There are many aspects of other cultures that are not allowed in Australia. Either because they are against our laws or socially unacceptable.

Example of these are:- Polygamy, honour killings, pedophilla, incest, bull fighting, cockfighting, some foods not allowed, oppression of womren and female circumcission to name a few. Then we allow freedom of religous practice, choice of religion, equality of women and a democracy that many countries/culrures do not have.

Therfore we have far too many differences with other cultures to claim we are multicultural.

For the want of a better word, we are mono-cultural, with an acceptance of aspects of other cultures that do not transgress on the basic values of our own culture.

There are many flaws in the imposed policy of multiculturalism and the differing meanings of the term to different people. The sooner the term goes and we look to intergration instead of highlighting differences the better we will all be.

Why in the world would i want to be like you Banjo?

Surely there better Australian role models than monocultural xenophobics?

“the world is bigger than you and your suburb, have a bit of compassion mate”-Carl
one of the more uncompassionate statements of herd.

Carl

Wow, my family and friends live in this suburb(<not winging ,just a fact), which has greatly increased in all forms of crime, due directly to this policy.
Once again, the safety of your (fellow Australians)<had to say it) is apparently worth less then that of the refugee. Don’t accuse me of exaggeration, as the statistics cannot be released, until the pc is dropped(fact).
Maybe, just maybe, when the pc is dropped, and the statistics are released, peoples opinion like yours might immediately change.

Your statement is infinitely and dangerously wrong.

First and most obvious, my compassion has been stated in a previous post “I am a human and I have a soul, and when I see people starving in certain countries etc, I say I would like to help them, BUT NOT at the peril of myself family and friends, my freedom to feel safe and general way of life, >we need to support them in their country< so that part of your statement is WRONG, was that not compassion in an commonsense way?

secondly “the world is bigger then you and your suburb”. How can I answer this, it has an infinite amount of responses. The world to, is bigger then this country in which we are discussing, why not mention that to the author, “author, the world is bigger then you and your country”, Where does that statement lead?

This country is full of suburbs correct, as this topic is immigration and the multicultural policy, its effects are first and foremost, going to be felt by me, and ALL INDIVIDUALS IN THEIR SUBURBS! Is the world bigger then all Australia’s suburbs? Your statement could never be answered.

“the world is bigger than you and your suburb, have a bit of compassion mate”-Carl
Well i say my suburb in Australia is like a brick in a house. If to many bricks crumble and brake, then the house will fall down! And Some are showing cracks.

obviously

The issue here is multiculturalism, immigration and refugees are separate issues. But I will digress.

142,930 immigrants this year, up from 120,060 from last year. About 4,000 refugees.

This is Howards "smoke and mirrors" trick. While dramatically increasing immigration each year since elected he has pandered to the anti-immigration mob by being tough on refugees. Guess what the dills have bought it.

I don't know where you live but I suggest any percieved increase in crime is due to economic factors not african refugees.

(Digression (parekbasis in greek, egressio, digressio and excursion in latin) is a section of a composition or speech that is an intentional change of subject) :)

B-D EVERYBODY wants to rule the World! - Didn't you hear Tears for Fears??

It is up to Australians to show them they have another think coming if they want to rule Australia - that is the job of all Australians - or at least the ones some of us vote for to do it on our behalf. ( for now, for now - but come the revolution - KA-POW!)

Ev - thank you for your opinion - forgive me I thought this was an OPINION forum? I exercised mine as freely as you and Obviously may do - if anyone actually learns something from it all well and good. Unlike Obviously, i don't use spellcheck and when i type i infrequently hit ' l' before 's' - or any one of a number of similar errors and do not always pick them up before posting. I wrote hoarde originally but knew that wasn't kwite rite. Having to listen to an 18 yo tell me and everyone else why (in their entirely UNhumble if 'polite' opinion) our arguments in favour or anti the topic are wrong when it is clear that they do not posses the ability to correctly understand the 'youse' (sic) of some words- simple basic words (to and to equals? - you really would need to read ALL Ob's posts to understand why i was being so patronising and smug) - was more than i could 'bear'. Your opinion (and i see it has a shred of cred) has been duly noted. I stand by my decision to exercise mine in Obviously's case - thats who the hell i think i am - wanna make something of it?? Obviously obviously didn't - maybe that should tell you something? Or are you his Mum?

Banjo - well said - a voice of reason! If only there were more like you.

Rainier,
What makes you think that I want you, or anyone else, to be like me? And I'm facinated to know why you think I am a monocultural xenophobic?

I have a right to my assesment of our present culture. Was some of the examples I gave incorrect or was the assesment accurate and you simply did not like to be informed that we are not multicultural.

Can you name one group of people from overseas that do not have to alter their culture somewhat when they come to live here. How can we call ourselves multicultural if we do not allow others to practice ALL their cultural aspects. Spaniads, for example, cannot conduct bull fights here even though it is very much part of their culture.
After I wrote my last post, I realized that Kiwis do the Haka before football matches and we don't and they say "fush an chups" when they mean "fish an chips", so I guess we are a bit different.

People from other cultures can still have their different cusine, which I enjoy at times, hold Dragon parades, beer festivals, maypoles with children in colourfull costumes. You know all the nice things we were promised when multiculturalism was imposed.

Perhaps you would like us to be multicultural. If so what cultural matters would you allow to let migrants feel more at home? What about child marriages, FGM, carry firearms in public place, prevent young women from higher education? I really would like to know just where multiculturalists draw the line on cultural practices.

I am not fearfull of foreigners and I do not care about ethinicity, but i do care about community cohesiveness and to continue to push Multiculturalism will never acheive that.

A Jakubowicz,

PART I

Multiculturalism protects passive and active racists from fair criticism, and thereby from overcoming the grip of their herd instinct.

By “racism” we mean the tendency of one to identify as primordially a member of some ethnic/moral collective rather than as individuals whose sense of collective patriotism is held not for any transitory and contingent customs but for a particular State constitution, rooted as it is in universal ethical principles that lie beyond the grip of the ethno-herd instinct. This goes for all members of the State, new and old, regardless of their length of time as patriots.

Those within the State of “Australia” who cannot get their minds off their “ethnicity” (e.g. Irish, English, Vietnamese, Greek, Lebanese, etc.) are to be deemed “racists”, since it is such people who typically herd together into separate suburbs, employ only their own kin, never join the armed services or other such essential service jobs (police, fire, ambulance), nor partake in volunteer activities that benefit those beyond their ‘community’, and in general foster division via the moralising and victimisation of identity politics.

We believe that “multiculturalism” is unjust to the principles of such a constitutional patriotism, in that it promotes the divisive herd instinct of the “customary self” over the prosperous “ethical self”, the self that FOSTERS ASTRONOMICALLY MORE DIVERSITY, TOLERANCE, AND CONSIDERATENESS THAN DOES MULTICULTURAL IDENTITY POLITICS.

Identity politicians like you, Andrew, are in my opinion the most ethnocentric people of them all. You conflate class with ethnicity to garner support for your unsupportable argument that places the blame of the problems associated with “minority” integration entirely onto the white-anglo-saxon members of the community, when all the evidence points to it being totally internally generated.

Take your claim that “We live in a world now where unease about the ‘other’ has escalated dramatically”.

From my perspective, assuming that by “world” you mean “earth” (rather than “West”), your statement could only be true if by “other” you mean “white-anglo-saxon”. But since I know you mean everybody BUT white-anglo-saxons, your assumption here reflects your ethnocentric bias which prevents you from ...

PART II

... even considering the possibility that it could be otherwise.

And what do you mean by: “a complex society has to see everyone as having an equal stake in its success if it is to prosper”?

From my perspective this is best achieved by promoting integration, which is not a cultural genocide but just an overcoming of xenophobia. Whist there is truth in saying that “Australia was a society with a racist past seeking to prevent or avoid a racist future”, there is also truth in saying that those like you who cannot get their minds off their ethnicity and who are thereby oversensitive about it, are the identity politicians who foster “Cultural hierarchies that force obeisance of some to others, that corral [not so much] minorities [but individuals] into ghettos of hate and poverty, and that demand a singular consciousness”. (Even at the mild end of the spectrum we have "Woglife" forums: http://www.wog.com.au/forum/default.asp)

You say: “multiculturalism has not had its day, though there are those who fear change in themselves and will do everything in their power to ensure it disappears from the political lexicon”.

From my perspective IT IS YOU WHO FEAR CHANGE in yourself, for you cannot, like the vast majority of white-anglo-saxons, get over your being rooted in your ethno-soil. It is identity politicians like YOU who cannot overcome your sense of alienation, no matter how subtle, when away from your kin.

You attack all fair criticism of your politics by religiously demoralising it as “truly evil”, because in your opinion it is “advancing an agenda of supercilious and corrosive superiority”.

From my perspective it is you who has the sense of superiority, for to assume that “constitutional patriotism” amounts to a blind cultural conformism is to miss the point entirely. Nobody has EVER asked you to jettison your precious “heritage” UNLESS it conflicts with the very principles that sustain the possibility of diversity and tolerance. Ghettoisation IS a potential problem in this regard, and we will not stop being critical of it because of your threats of our “disregard for the consequences”.

abyss - 5 star's

It takes years for a melting pot to achieve a new identity. Even then it does not produce a single strain. In Britain the Scots, the Cornish, the Midlanders the upper classes the working classes all have different cultures and not always the same set of values. And Britain is one of the greatest of the ancient melting pots. (Celts Romans Anglo-Saxons Danes Normans etc.)

To my mind the biggest gain from multiculturalism is to ensure the melting pot is made richer by giving the smaller varied groups a higher profile and therefore making sure some valuable ingredients are not left out.

If multiculturalism is indeed dead then our children have lost a potential richness in their lives.

Logic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

By AD43, Roman conquest of Britain begins< first sign of this “greatest of the ancient melting pots”

For the next few hundred years, the Kingdom of England would fall in and out of power between several West-Saxon and Danish kings. For over half a century, the unified Kingdom of England became part of a vast Danish empire under Cnut, before regaining independence for a short period under the restored West-Saxon lineage of Edward the Confessor. < I wonder how they fell in and out of power?

im guessing these times where full of peace and stability(wink).

The Norman conquest of England was the conquest of the Kingdom of England by William the Conqueror (Duke of Normandy), in 1066 at the Battle of Hastings and the subsequent Norman control of England. < more of this “Great melting pot”

The Anglo-Saxon kingdoms tended to coalesce(definition-come together or form a whole) by means of warfare. < theirs your answer! That’s the fact! And the only way history will not repeat itself, is if we become a police state!

Yet you make the statement “And Britain is one of the greatest of the ancient melting pots. (Celts Romans Anglo-Saxons Danes Normans etc". My god, the “greatest melting pot” lead directly to mass death, social upheaval, poverty ( due to displacement etc.)

“If multiculturalism is indeed dead then our children have lost a potential richness in their lives.”
You tell me of the richness that those children "who were in that great melting pot" gained from multiculturalism? And tell me of what they lost?

obviously

The English language was one great product of the British melting pot and so were Shakespeare Dickens, Coleridge, Conrads. Pinter et al.

I had the experience of leaving Australia in 1965 and not returning until 1974.

On my return I noticed the difference immediately. Young Australians were more vibrant more expressive than when I left. People were much better dressed, the arts flourished in a way that had not happened before. The country was no longer a boring English colony, the cities were lively even on Sunday. Food was at last edible. (My 19th century Jewish backround had retained a sense of enjoyment of food).

In the intervening years Melbourne has become so much more exciting like a European or Asian city. We now see ourselves as Australians not as a backwater of Mother England. (Perhaps our Prime Minister has missed out on all of this). I could never countenence a return to the bad old days of Anglo-Saxon monotonous mono culture..

Braindrain,

If the way you interpreted my post is any insight into your character, then you have chosen the correct name to post with.

How dare you call me a racist? Go over my post, and come back with anything in it that was racist.

All you people are is a slogan, if one doesn't agree with your views, they must be a redneck. I'm the son of a migrant too, although my father embraced this place wholeheartedly.

If you thought my comments about western values being superior were racist,your more intellelectually challenged than I thought.

Do you honestly think you could show that western values aren't superior to those of cultures that use Sharia, caste systems, and other backward practices.

I look forward to your response, but be serious if you do.

You are so weak, you try to say your parents came here to make money, as though that's all you want from this place. For a start, that is incredibly rude, and probably explains why non-western migrants hardly ever join the fire brigade, police, and all those vocations that show they consider this their home.

Anglo's are the glue holding this place together mate. If it wasn't for people with western values, this place would be like the dumps you left.

Don't forget that.

Bennie - you may have the same name as I, but your intellectual capacity obviously isn't the same.

How do you get, from my post, that I think white people are superior to others? Go on, go back over it and show me where I said that, you leftists make me sick.

When you can't win the argument you get all spiteful and make things up.

I said western culture is superior, which is much different. I don't care if all Australians are yellow in a hundred years time, as long as they all share the values westerners share, of equality for all (not just those in the "tribe"), of democracy, freedom, yes, all those things George Bush says that make you self-hating leftists cringe.

Do you think you could show me that the values of Islamic culture say, or Asian culture, is superior to western values, which are essentially human, universal values?

Try yourself to death, you can never do it.

People are flocking here to live under a system with those values, from all over the world, especially Muslim nations.

To think western values aren't superior means you are a bigot, as you don't believe that non-westerners should live under values of equality, democracy.

Yet you call me a racist! Go and cry, your argument is destroyed!

"...Must understand that all non-western European cultures have to offer is their food, ..., only prepared according to western cultural standards

The morality of non-western cultures is backward

Then again, migrants agree that western values are superior since they flock here in the millions

Multiculturalism is why feminists never attack Muslim beliefs, or why Greens Senator Brown can hang out with the redneck Keysar Trad

MULTICULTURALSM PROTECTS REDNECK CULTURES FROM LEGITIMATE CRITICISM!

The problem is, those like the writer can't stand the idea that almost all of the racism in our world today, and in Australia, is perpetrated by non-whites

I wonder what the leftist herd tell themselves

All we want is for them to leave their racist ethnic hatreds back in the cesspits they left.
"

Redneck Racist Benjamin's quotes above all show him for the arrogant, blind, far right, raving white supremacist he truly is. Although to be honest he seems to equate all 'non-westerners' as Muslim extremists and is incapable of understanding (or perhaps of merely showing that he understands) that the world and multiculturalism is about much more than current history and those who follow the Islam religion.

"All you people are is a slogan".

And just exactly which 'people' am I, Red? ( and the slogan is....?)

"Do you honestly think you could show that western values aren't superior to those of cultures that use Sharia, caste systems, and other backward practices."

I honestly believe you to be incapable of understanding idea i have raised and that no-one will ever convince you of just why you are so very wrong in much of what you say and why it's mostly a load of racist ethnicist crap unworthy of being dignified with an intelligent response, Red. I am certain you could regale me for hours on end with one-sided views of why you believe you are 'right', Whitey.

cont...

cont...

Anglo's are the glue holding this place together mate. If it wasn't for people with western values, this place would be like the dumps you left.

And just exactly what dump is that Red.... go - on take a wild guess - I can't wait to see you try to figure it out...

"To think western values aren't superior means you are a bigot, as you don't believe that non-westerners should live under values of equality, democracy."

UNbelievable!

It's obvious that your that tiny little thing between your ears you laughingly call a brain has convinced you that the word 'Racist' is to be limited only to people who claim their own 'race' (define 'race' first dork) is in all ways superior to the one you choose to align with most strongly (no little 'dark skinned skeletons' in your lineage, are there Whitey?)

Maybe you know a better word for someone with an unreasonably held view of their 'own' culture's supremacy. Anyone called you a 'Culturalist' lately?? How about Klan member?

As for misinterpretting and jumping to unfounded conclusions - I made the comment about my father wanting to feed himself and his family with a JOB so you couldn't try to slur my family as being dolebludgers and that was the ONLY reason I made the comment. My Father had ABSOLUTELY NO belief that the Culture here was in ANY way superior to the one he lived in for the first 40 years of his life. I can state categorically that the culture here is in no way better than the one i left - just the weather is, and because of THAT the lifestyle, than if i had stayed at 'home'.

As for why 'non-westerners "don't" join the Police, Ambulance and Fire services as i have seen you and others claim, (then, clearly, there are only western run Police, Fire and Ambulance services in non-western countries?) Maybe it is a NUMBERS thing, Maggot!

Go crawl back into the rotting carcass you were swallowing.

No, wait! that's not very nice....

Don't go back into it. Just go away.

Braindrain - Something about you says your name describes an event - unfortunate but gee whIz self evident - why are you so angry?
in fact you are so angry I CANT EVEN TELL WHOSE SIDE YOU ARE ON.

Banjo wants to know where "multiculturalists" draw the line. Well, I consider myself a multiculturalist, and I draw the line where the law is. All multiculturalism is saying is that, beyond the law, the state (and other people in it) have no right to dictate to you how you should live. It doesn't seem that controversial or dangerous an idea to me, and it protects individuals from undue interference by the state, or from overbearing neighbours who want to tell them how to live.

I don't see how it's got so muddled up in some people's heads with support for Sharia law or being some sort of threat to the cohesiveness of society. Provided the law is upheld, the rest is up to individuals' private conscience.

A real society develops from the grass-roots, spontaneous, unforced action of people acting of their own free-will. Anything else is just tyranny, whatever friendly-sounding label you wish to apply to it.

And I'd like Benjamin to substantiate his claim that "non-western" migrants aren't joining the civil defence forces such as police etc. I wasn't aware that the forces kept records on that sort of thing. Care to elaborate Benjamin? My guess is that in Benjamin's world, members of the police force (whatever their race) are by definition, "western migrants", whatever ethnic background they may have. Thus he neatly avoids the epithet of racist and can maintain his claim of western cultural superiority. But it's a circular argument Benjamin. The rest of us can see that even if you can't.

Benjamin, what you fail to see in your claim of cultural superiority is that many other people from different cultures feel that their culture is superior to yours. You are headed for permanent conflict with those groups unless you are all prepared to negotiate. If not, the future, like the past, will be one of genocidal warfare.

Western values have produced many great things. They also produced Marxism, Fascism, Nazism, the Spanish Inquisition, and an imperialist drive that has decimated populations on five continents since the sixteenth century. It's difficult to consider ideas like "democracy" and "freedom" as being part of western values, and then to look at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay without vomiting.

Try living in a country that's been on the receiving end of western values (pick any country you like, including a number of western ones). How many people can be murdered in the name of freedom and democracy before the words cease to mean anything at all?

Your ironclad belief in the superiority of western values seems to act as a soporific that makes it impossible for you to see the myriad failures of western cultures. I suppose it's easier to rant and rave at the perceived imperfections of other cultures, than to turn that laser-like perception inwards and consider how we might improve our own culture, or even live up to our espoused values in the first place.

Mercurius,
Like you, I am perfectly satisfied to see all people in Australia obey the rule of law, irrespective of their heritage or citizenship.
I do not know if many multiculturalists share this view.

If there is a problem with something it is up to our legislators to correct it. For example SA recently made a law prohibiting the human consumption of dog meat.

However my point is that, with so many aspects of other cultures not allowed, how can we claim to be multicultural. Some of the cultural practices not allowed here are very important to other cultures. I used bullfighting as an example but there are many others. We require all to obey our laws irrespective of a persons cultural beliefs.

We are somewhat hypocritical to maintain we are multicultural.

I understand that in India there is different laws governing different cultures. That, to me is multiculturalism, so the best we can claim is partly-multiculural. It is not clear cut, hence the ongoing debate. I think it better if we abolish the MC policy alltogether and promote integration.

Could you pro multi-culturalists, answer me these questions three:
Give answers in same way 1/2/3

1/ what has DIVERSITY given you?

2/ what would INCREASED DIVERSITY give you, that you haven’t already gotten?
Note- The answers to questions 1 & 2, can only be things that you can not get from a holiday

3/ And Is it worth the obvious negatives, and increasing extreme risks? i.e (crime, ethnic gangs, race riots, terrorism...).


Do you at least admit that the most Dangerous places in the industrialized world, are the most ethnically diverse (meaning no dominant race) like Los Angeles or Johannesburg.

“I could never countenence a return to the bad old days of Anglo-Saxon monotonous mono culture.”-logic, are you incapable of entertaining yourself? If you were born 70 yrs ago, would every waking minute, for you, be some type of inescapable monotonage? As I stated in a previous post, we had natural diversification (of a much more minor nature) of culture i.e (afl southern, nrl northern states), and no one complained how boring it was.

Don’t you understand! What is the difference between 1970’s Australia, and 1970’s middle east? We drink the same water that they do. We breath the same air that they do. The very thing that made Australia so great, peaceful, prosperous, safe, fun, was our “bad old days of Anglo-Saxon monotonous mono culture” the very thing you disgrace with your comment!

If the “bad old days of Anglo-Saxon monotonous mono culture” equals, peace, safety, prosperity, unbeliviable lifestyle etc, then you my friend have an considerably different definintion for bad, then what I do.

“Banjo wants to know where "multiculturalists" draw the line. Well, I consider myself a multiculturalist, and I draw the line where the law is.”-mercuris
have you seen Argentina, are you prepared for a possible future, which is a violent police state, because that’s what happens when you draw the line, instead of circleling the problem and solveing it .

obviously

When I was completing my course almost everyone at Uni was planning to go overseas, and many of us did. Coming from a family with two cultures (ie multicultural) we already ate better food than the average Anglo-Australian. Modern medical reserach shows that the food we ate was healthier.

The Australia I left was incredibly narrow and prudish. Censorship laws made us look ridiculous and prevented us access to some of the best literature and films. Intelligent discussion was limited and discussion Forums like the one you are taking part in could not have existed. We were insular and technical advances were held back by a conservative community.

How different it is now!

Take part in other cultures. Enjoy the company of Greeks, Italians, Turks and our modern theatre. Go to a few foreign language films. Better still enroll in a course in another language. Watch SBS. There is a marvellous world out there. I only wish I could live forever to enjoy it all.

Open your mind, you are missing so much.

Braindrain, (make sure you read my post to Mercurious too, it will benefit)

Your attacks of a personal nature, i.e, "maggot" and other nonsensical terms only reinforce that, having lost the argument, you resort, as do many, to name-calling.

Constructive criticism is welcolmed, and I'll even change my outlook if you show me where I'm wrong, but insults do nothing to further one's argument. I learnt that when I was about 13, mabye 14, embarressingly late.

You, in a cheap attempt to answer my questions, which you weren't able to do, actually quote comments I made that are totally logical.

The only one that could be construed as not proper was the one about Australia being held together by Anglo's, I should have said western Europeans, but still, as I've said before, and do again below to Mercurious (who doesn't seem to get it either) Asians and middle-easterners, and by Asians I include Indians to Afghani's, do not, repeat DO NOT, join the vocations like the police, fire brigade, ambulance, but ESPECIALLY volunteers.

Why is this hurtful? As it obviously was given your name-calling.

You still must, somehow, think I'm wrong to suggest that western values are superior to non-western ones, although you don't show how, but altering my comments as if to suggest I am some sort of white supremacist is cowardly.

You can say I'm a European Enlightenment supremacist, a title I'll gladly accept as a badge of honour.

But trying to twist my words as though I believe white skin is better shows you are grasping at straws.

Why can't you answer my argument, instead of name-calling?

Show me how, say, Indian values - caste system, are better than those I, and you as you live here too, live under in the west? Oh, by the way, millions flock every year to live under those values. To deny that they are better is to give creedence to those value systems that Africans, middle-easterners, and Asians, are fleeing in horror....

....Systems like what gave rise to Australia's first political assassination, with Cabramatta councillor Phuong Ngo doing only what comes natural in Asian politics, murder your rival.

Or with Arab politics, as we seen during the Auburn election with gunshots fired at the poll booth, with Sunni's bashing Shi'ites with iron bars because they voted - as voting is un-Islamic you see.

Go on, show me how non-western cultural values are better than western ones....or are you such a coward you can only hurl racial insults like "whitey"?

Mabye you're insulted because I say western values, but what I mean is that they are human values, it's just that they started in the west.

To be against this is like saying just because one particular tribe of cavemen were the first to use fire, that no other tribe should use fire because they then lose their own culture and become like the culture of the tribe that uses fire.

Try harder.

I'll have to answer Mercurious in my brothers post, antiBigot, an apt name......I might add.

obviously

By the time I was your age I had lived in 19 different countries (my dad designed electronics for naval warships).

The one thing I learned is that wherever you live people are the same. They strive to put a roof over their heads, care for their kids and improve their lives.

This was true even in apart-hate Sth Africa, I have lived in Jo'burg.

You may wish to demonise people because of their ethnic or racial backgrounds but this is a fallacy.

Crime, gangs etc are a result of social inequality. If you demonise a group it is only natural that they fight back.

Cabramatta was once exclusively Italian, then Vietnamese, now Middle Eastern. It is not the race it is the poverty that beeds these ghettos.

Go and say hello to your african neighbours, you will find they are just like you.

Benjamin.

You are a zionist racist, don't worry there are many more of your comrades on OLO.

Mercurious,

I have had to answer you in my brothers post, he won't mind. Won't happen again. It took a while to answer Braindrain as...well, the name says it all really...

Mabye you shouldn't read this because it destroys your cheap argument and will make you cry. You attack me before even hearing my logical response as though

I'm racist. How weak. Your cheap comment that I think my values are superior and so do others so it will lead to conflict is stupid.

Western values tolerate all others apart from intolerant values, this is why so many come here mate. This is also why western nations are diverse with many religions, whearaes muslim lands, those where there are still christians, india has a caste system, so they don't value equality. if you've ever met a south korean who comes from japan, you will know that japan is a racist dump (wealth means nothing, look at saudi - illegal to be non-muslim there!).

So others who claim their values are superior, unless they can show REASON in why they are better, they will be ignored. Western values are based on logic and reason. Do you disagree?

How do I know they don't join the police force, military, you ask? With they, you must mean non-westerners (to say "they" sounds awfully derogatory don't you think? Your not some sort of redneck are you?)

For a start I don't believe your that ignorant, as you must have eyes, you must see that almost all police are European in nature, even in areas where 90% non-western, like Bankstown, Cabramatta (where I grew up).

I have seen figures everywhere over the years, from the police website drives that are desperate to get them in, and in government statistics.

I saw a full page double story about a year ago when a Muslim joined the fire-brigade, which shows you how rare that is....

...A 4 Corners documentary about 3 weeks ago (that's on the leftist ABC, mate) of the state of our military readiness spoke to the head of Duntroon academy, forget his name (you could probably find out from the 4 Corners website) and he stated that only miniscule numbers in the military are non-anglo's let alone non-western It's worse in the police, with a Daily Telegraph report after the intake of officers this year at Goulbourn revealing that in the current police force, there are 4, repeat, 4 Muslims, and 17 Asians, although this excludes the Asian

Crime Squad which has translators to deal with Asian gangs, which, like middle-eastern gangs, make up about 1/3 each of N.S.W's crime.

Just these two groups!

Astonishing isn't it? But racist to report it? No. Hey, I don't say these things as a "See I told you so" type of mentality, rather a horrible sadness that those who have come here since the policy of multiculturalism was initiated, particularly the Vietnamese and Lebanese, have been encouraged to think of this place as nothing more than a place to make money (as Braindrain spitefully claimed, as though that's all this place is good for) and educate their kids.

I also knew that they didn't join such vocations from my own eyes, as I grew up in Cabramatta in the 1980's and early 90's.

Steve Madden was it?

You call me a zionist racist?

Why?

Or are you so weak you have no reasons?

Show me how saying that western values, i.e, human rights, the way we live in western nations, is superior to non-western values, like Sharia Islamic law, or caste-system India, is racist?

Go on, show me.

If you really think they aren't superior, go and live in Iran. You won't though, because you believe western values are superior!

Hey hey, you must be racist too!

So weak!

benjamin - anti bigot

Smart ass for logging in under two names. Gets you in twice as much brown smelly stuff.

How many other rules are you willing to bend?

No matter how hard you deny it you are a racist, does not bother me, I just wish you would acknowledge it.

Why do you decend to an anti Islam rant on each thread you participate in?

BrainDrain correctly called you a maggot. I will go further, you are a racist maggot, please admit it.

What a sad sorry life you live, but I expect that comes from living in a socially deprived cesspit.

Did you get your ass kicked by a lebo? Is this the reason for your hatred?

You may live in a weird little world, but don't think we all share your hatred.

When Gandhi was asked what he thought of "Western civilization" he replied "It would be a nice idea`'.

Inky,

You have a point. I allowed myself to become (too?) angry. The one thing i truly can't tolerate is one-eyed, myopic, self-justifying Intollerance trying to pretend it is fair-minded and 'typically' Australian.

I did think it was fairly clear that I was angry at that aspect of Red.. sorry, benjamin the antibigot (surely related to 666 the Antichrist) and that whatever side It is on I am 'agin'. Personally I don't believe Australia is 'multicultural' I believe there are a number of ways we segregate ourselves (most of us belonging to more than one segregation at once and we form One 'culture'). Some hold tightly to values that others see as somehow 'wrong'. Frankly, why the hell bikie outlaw gangs are tollerated in Australia I haven't a clue but that is just my opinion - apparently not shared by all.

I should control my anger - after reading Red's latest posts the anger has subsided and I now feel only pity for it.

Red, Whitey, Blue, Maaaaate.

Not willing to guess which cesspool i crawled from?? I thought you would be too much of a coward to try that but i would have so loved to see you blow the sawdust out from between your ears when you tried and failed.

I repeat that you have not got the intelligence or desire to see exactly why you are so reviled and W R O N G!

I still think you have done nothing to deserve such a considered reply (i thought about it for under a second) but just so anyone else here can consider why your 'argument', for want of a better description, is so incapable of being sustained...

The topic is (Multi)culture. As stated, I dislike that term as i feel it inaccurate and open to misinterpretation /abuse.

You have abused it to cover a range of your personal bigotries (presumably though, not all). Culture encompasses History (of countries, states, cities). Changing culture is not something that can be done quickly or easily.

You have managed to reveal a tiny fraction of yourself correctly (European Enlightenment supremacist)...

could ever make as to why you should be ignored in future.

Iraq, under it's old name Mesopotamia, is the Cradle of Civilisation (sure, but what have they done for us lately? I can almost hear you scream) While your relatives were chasing mammoths under a nomadic hunter/gatherer 'culture', Saddam's antecedents were building the first cities and establishing agriculture and economics. When your later ancestors were wiping blue woad over their faces and declaring war on the closest tribe - Persian astronomers were inventing the system of time we use today and mapping and naming the heavens along with numerous other building blocks 'Westerner's took advantage of to help build their own empires much later in time.

But that is diversity and history and irrelevant to the likes of you.

So, why are you wrong today?

Because you imply that most of today's technology owes it's 'creation' to 'Western' societies (thanks entirely to the ripping off of the third world and slave labour, both foreign and domestic) that somehow makes 'western' culture superior and other cultures 'backward', as if all that counts is money and technologic superiority and the benefits that can flow from them (while ignoring the many negative - porn, drugs, crime, poverty sexual and economic inequality, all 'perfected' under today's Western Culture).

Not that you could ever appreciate it but there is far more to life and culture than that.

The other main reason you are so wrong is in your myopic view that Western culture is somehow non-violent and humanitarian. While any other culture is violent and of imperfect intent. (compared to perfect 'us') Thus 'proving' your argument (lol) to YOU.
If you have ANY intelligence above that of a maggot then use it to see why your views are entirely false or do I have to do ALL your intelligent thinking for you?

ALL cultures have virtue in them - ALL cultures have that which is either misunderstood (taking history into account) or is just plain bad judgement. This includes the one's Australia most closely ties itself to - the ones you claim are 'superior'.

Steve - it's pretty clear that Benjamin (or is that "antiBigot"?) has a couple of roos loose in his top paddock :)

Rainier,

"When Gandhi was asked what he thought of "Western civilization" he replied "It would be a nice idea"

Missing premise: The world from Gandhi's perspective is necessarily the true world.

"Which ethnic organisations are you talking about here? The Greek Clubs, the RSL?"

Missing premise: The RSL patronage comprise a distinct culture which is predominantly a low brow redneck white-anglo culture we should cringe at.

Steve Madden, BrainDrain,

I would be interested in hearing a more articulate reply to Benjamin. Not because I agree with him but because a position is only as good as the amount of criticism it can withstand, and you have not offerred any.

Steve madden.

Will you come to the realization that the brain is an organ, and like other organs was subject to evolution. Do you at least acknowledge the fact, that as the human skin colour(eyes, organs, hair etc) evolved extreme differences between races, so to did the brain continue to evolve and diverge (fact-natural selection, it is an organ, races will think and react different to situations, no matter how their brought up or taught!)
Until you realize that like our skin colour, eyes, facial structure can’t be changed, you to, cannot change the brain( no matter what you may think). This pre requisite wants us to protect ourselves family friends (genes, quite simply)

Believe it or not, We are both exhibiting this pre requisite in our behavior right now, though we find ourselves at the opposite side of the fence. As mine is based on the facts of life and nature, that dropping multi –culturalism would be an advantage for me and my family (both now and taking into account a possible future risk of this policy) , yours is based on that the human soul and spirit will over come our human pre requisites, and the so called benefits of multi-culturalism will benefit yourself, family and friends.
But unfortunately that is a dangerous concept, that most people presently cannot shake.

What abyss? You want someone to explain the bleeding obvious about Benjamin’s intellectual myopia? Having problems understanding it are you? What’s so bloody hard to understand about someone who knows jack about world history, culture, and boldy claims a Euro-centric chauvinistic perspective is worldly? Don't you watch American News TV? Puleeze!

obviously

I think you had better read something about DNA. What we call race is only skin deep. The brain is not related to skin colouring.

Steve Madden

Why do you call benjamin a zionist racist? Is this a double barrelled insult or do you associate the two. They are in fact in no way interelated. And why have you descended to nasty agression and insults, it degrades you?

Time to face facts, multiculturalism is murder through immigration. To be more exact, a brand of anti-imperialism. It is designed to degrade and undermine the host Western European society. Genocide can be committed through mass immigration, and it would appear that is exactly what some people have in mind. The problem is this: Western European society is among the most successful in the world, and the rest of the world can't stand on their own to feet. Instead of actually taking responsibilty to empower themselves, third worlders need to rely on white guilt and live like parasites in their society.

“The brain is not related to skin colouring. Skin colouring is only skin deep”

I disagree with this .

Even the brains of ferocious killers like female crocodiles are hard wired to protect those who are biologically closest to them. Their babies.
Human brains are hard wired the same way. We instantly recognise the tribal and biological features of our own offspring.
That’s why mankind is incapable of multiculturalism we are hard wired to protect and ensure the survival of those who are biologically closest to us, our children, our extended families and through centuries of tribal marriage,our tribes.

Our first allegiance is always to our tribe. You can certainly see this with the Arabs who are supposed to be loyal to Britian when they hatch bomb plots against the British when their old tribe is at war with Britian.

So I disagree with the idea that the brain has no connection to race.
I think the human brain is acutely aware of its tribal origin. It’s a survival mechanism.
I also disagree with the utopian idea put forward by some and particularly some religions that all men are brothers.
Biologically all men aren’t brothers. In fact a lot of mankind has had no biological connection for thousands of years, if at all.

Hells Angel represents a great reason for these sites to exists - if only to reveal some of the black souls that inhabit this place - multiculturalism is like globalisation of people - bring it on I say.

A whole bunch of posters tell us we are the envy of the rest of the world - albeit based on the efforts of those cultures that have gone before us - and then in many cases the same people tell us it all stops now: we have evolved as a race and a culture - any more change is for the worst - we are as good as it gets - and every one wants to get here and rain on our parade - they want what is ours.

It makes me chuckle more than some what.

We are here due to the efforts of those who went before us - and I dont just mean the one or two generations "that made this nation great" type of crap - I mean waaaaaay back.

Personaly I like to think of myself as eventually being mere compost for the crop that is to come - we will all be past over soon enough, turned into the ground and provide food for civilsations to come - we are showing signs of decay already as a society - like fruit rotting in a bowl, desperate for some housewife to chuck us out - only to be reborn in the civilisation that will floursih from out of our rotting carcasses.

Obviously wants to know some benefits of diversity. I have many positive examples from my own life, which I have documented elsewhere and will repeat again below if requested.

But for this occasion, I am going to use Obviously as the example.

Obviously considers his own suburb to be the gold standard by which all else should be measured. This is narrow-minded.

Obviously slags off the entire cultures and nations he has never seen and knows little or nothing about. This is ignorant.

Obviously strikes up paeans of praise to a time in Australia before he was even born and about which he has no direct knowledge. This is foolish.

Narrow-minded, ignorant and foolish. The chief benefit of diversity for me is that I didn't turn out like Obviously, obviously.

Obviously, it's not too late. Soon you'll be able to move out of home. My advice to you is stop listening to what your parents tell you about Australia in the 1970s and how great your backyard is.

Benjamin is no maggot, people. Calm down.

But Benjamin - sure it is not racist to point out the distribution of ethnic groups in different jobs. However it is absolutely racist to ascribe characteristics to ethnic groups based on their occupations, which is what you have done repeatedly. You infer that Asians, Indians, Afghanis and middle-easterners lack civic pride as Australians because of low participation rates in certain occupations. I'm afraid the shoe fits Benjamin; you are racist. It would be just as racist to conclude that Indians and Asians and Middle-easterners are smarter than Anglos because so many of them are doctors, scientists and engineers. Or that Anglos are filthy people who can't drive, because so few of them are cleaners and taxi drivers.

When I went to try out as a Naval officer in 2002 (found out I was colour-blind, dammit), the room was full of young Australians from Asian and Indian and middle-eastern families. Not sure why so few of them ended up being selected. Would you care to enlighten us with some racial theories Benjamin?

Well, this will draw the crabs, but here goes nuffink...

Banjo, I've been racking my brains trying to think of a reason why the SA govt. felt it necessary to ban eating dog meat. I can't be bothered wading through the Hansard (perhaps you’re having a lend of me?), and it's much more fun to ponder this directly. I can think of all the reasons it couldn't be....

It couldn't be out of concern for animal welfare, otherwise the live sheep export trade would be banned.
It couldn't be because they're endangered, since dingoes are already protected.
It couldn't be for reasons of public health, otherwise they'd ban alcohol and tobacco too.
It couldn't be because of disease, or we'd have banned chickens yonks ago.
It couldn't be because they're pets, otherwise we'd ban eating rabbits, guinea pigs and carp.
It couldn't be because it's cruel to farm dogs, because it's no less cruel to farm pigs, which are just as intelligent and social as dogs.
It couldn't be because of ethical concern, because the ethics of eating dog are no different to that of beef, lamb, chicken, kangaroo or fish.
It couldn't be because there's a massive unregulated black-market industry because, well, there isn't.
It couldn't be to protect our other meat industries from the competitive threat of the unbridled surge in demand for dog meat because, well, there isn't one.
It couldn't be because the stout burghers of Adelaide are worried about their foreign-looking neighbours dognapping and eating their pets or because they're a bit suspicious about that Chinese take-away they had last night; because we live in progressive, tolerant Australia where we've all moved on from that, haven't we?

So, I'm at a loss. What WAS the reason?

Sounds like just another nanny-state law. Fancy passing a law to tell me what animals I can and can't eat. I'm quite capable of making up my own mind. Provided it's cruelty-free, properly controlled for health & safety, and ethically farmed, it's on my own head what I eat and it's not the State's or anybody else's business.

Mercurius said: "Fancy passing a law to tell me what animals I can and can't eat."

There are many animals you're probably not allowed to eat:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/

In some states in the USA, it's illegal to eat roadkill. Dunno about Australia.. if it's fresh, why not?

'Finger lickin' good..'

Back on topic though, questioning the policy of 'multiculturalism' is not 'evil', as the author suggests..

Mercurius,
I really do not know why SA passed the law. I read it in a national newspaper. Just a small article. You know a gap filler.

I was curious enough to inquire to NSW Health Dept, as to if we had the same law or not, but got no reply. I asked at the Health Dept of my local council and the receptionist was shocked that anyone would want to eat dog meat. My inquiries revealed nothing.

Anyway as far as I know that is SA law. I do know that landowners can get permit to cull kangaroos in NSW, but each killing must be tagged and left to rot where they fell and one cannot use the carcase for any purpose. what a waste!

On topic. Do you not think we are hypocritical in claiming multiculturalism when we do not allow so many aspects of other cultures? I think we simply tell prospective migrants we ARE multicultural and the poor buggers are not informed differently untill they get a visa.

Wow not a single positive argument for multiculturalism except “I like multiculturalism because it’s nice.” Or “it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy” How this policy of united in diversity remains would be a mystery if it were not for loud mouth minorities.

All you people who are pro MC I am surprised to see you posting on the weekend. I would have thought you would have all been taking part in one of your other favorite pastimes down in Melbourne of violently protesting and attacking the good people of the Vic police force! Maybe you put down your petrol bomb and anti Australian banner just for a minute to go on to OLO huh?

Sneekeepete – “Personaly I like to think of myself as eventually being mere compost for the crop that is to come - we will all be past over soon enough, turned into the ground and provide food for civilsations to come - we are showing signs of decay already as a society - like fruit rotting in a bowl, desperate for some housewife to chuck us out - only to be reborn in the civilisation that will floursih from out of our rotting carcasses” ………………….. Amazing! you have just cancelled yourself out of any meaning full discussion for the future of this country. Maybe your contribution to Australia should be chucked out sneekee but you should speak for yourself I hope to contribute greatly to this great nation.

Of course western culture/civilisation is superior and everybody knows it. They would not be risking there lives in the millions to move to a western country if that was not true. To argue this point is like trying to argue the earth is flat. But hang on a minute maybe some of you people think the earth is flat after all you do think that Australia is the cultural equal of Iraq

I was talking about what is to come Easy times - I expect to be around for a while to come but gladly accept what ever fate history and this life vomits up for me - the sneekemeister still has buckets to contribute - high quality stainless steel type buckets - full of snide wit - innuendo - sarcasm - bitterness - sneering leftist contempt - you know, the usual stuff - even though I am caught, for now, in a slightly nihilistic frame of mind I will never stop. And I must admit I liked that paragraph you so kindly gave more air time - I am if nothing a shameless self promoter -

Our culture is not superior - let me make that perfectly clear. The assumption that it is pretty much just a delusion of granduer held by the fearful. I will not embellish on that assertion overly much - mainly because I cant be bothered today. And really what is the point? Because as we all know paranoia is often associated with such delusions of granduer - and there you have the link between fear of multiculuralism and culture - reason will never shake off such a delusion. So I wont even try any harder.

We have what a lot of other places do not have - space - stuff in abundance (unless you count water and tolerance)- and a certain amount of freedom - that is why, in part, people often flock and sometimes float to our shores, like flies to a cow pat - not because their culture is worse than our - they just want a bit of what we have.

How do you explain ex pat Brits or Yanks - they all swim in the same culural swill that all westerners bathe in - Am I right?- and yet they come here in droves

“Go and say hello to your african neighbours, you will find they are just like you”-steve.

Just like Kenyans legs, and white peoples legs produce different results in a long distance race (Fact! due to differences in lungs, oxygen, genes (24 of 25 best long distance runners from Kenya), so to will Africans, Arabs, Europeans think along different lines (due to the prerequisite’s of their racial groups), they to will produce different results in any given situation (not touching intelligence, just touching on future decisions of this increasingly divisive country), but these results will (without a police state) lead to mass social disruption, upheaval, generally a lot of violence and so forth.

The day the country is 25% Arab, 25% European, 25% Asian, 25% African will be a dangerous time, for which any major decision has an extremely high chance that it will upset 75% of the increasingly frustrated and divisive country. Thoughts?

The one thing I learned is that wherever you live people are the same. They strive to put a roof over their heads, care for their kids and improve their lives.” –Steve madden

That is simply not enough! It is just NOT enough to bind us together (period). Never has been in the past, never will be in the future. In fact using that statement, I can come to the conclusion that I have just as much in common with an African for example, as I do with the mouse in my cubboard, as he too wants “a roof over his head, care for his kids, and improve his life”.
Point, it’s just simply not enough, and the problem is that what you’re seeing now of these gangs, riots etc, is that in 30 years time they will be far worse... (does anyone actually doubt that? How much are your prepared to take?).... With small (but growing), in the open street battles, much like Los angeles.

Cont....

There is no such thing as multiculturalism in practice. The closest we can come is sharing our cultural heritage. Governance and law must come from some initial culture, hence an England, Russia, Saudi Arabia, or an Australia. There must be some stability at ground level of social behavior. Constantly rewriting law and recreating a form of governance to incorporate each new migrant culture would be the result of practiced multiculturalism. Meaning Sharia must be adopted by a democracy in a truely multicultural world including the culture of being Muslim, and Jewish Rabbinical laws to include the Jews and Aboriginal tribal laws, and Polynesian, Hindu, Chinese, etc. etc.
It's not possible to exist with such fundamental discord with in a society. It actually negates the meaning of "society".
Even children born and raised by parents of different cultures have a dominant culture for everyday life's rule.

sharkfin

I should like to see the research that you have done to justify that brains are different between races. Have you produced a new theory which supercedes DNA? Why can't you accept scientific evidence?

aqvarivs

But Australia IS multicultural. Ever since the First Fleet. And we all live by the British legal and parliamentary system as does India, South Africa, Israel, Canada etc. That is no problem.

What some people are trying to do is put the brakes on our multicultural traditions and force everyone into one mould. Usually the one that they were brought up with. That is selfish.

What would be wrong with a mixture of Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Jews living together under English style law? It worked in Cochin in Southern India. They enjoyed the highest standards of living in the sub continent. The Synagogue and the Hindu Temple even share a semi-detached building.

Obviously

Wrong, Kenyan’s are good at running because it is their national sport, they live at altitude and are full time athletes paid by the Army. Has a Kenyan ever won a Marathon gold medal at an Olympics? NO. How many Black Africans have won an Olympic marathon gold medal? (5) How many Europeans or Americans? (16).

So now that your genetic superiority theory is disproved. Next

Do you know the percentage of people born overseas in Australia in 1901 compared to 2005? Guess what it is actually lower now than it was at federation. Do you know where over 70% of these people come from? Great Britain and New Zealand.

The day the country is 25% Arab, 25% European, 25% Asian, 25% African will never happen, not if the statistics of immigration since the abolition of the white Australia policy stay similar (which they will).

If you have mice in your cupboard I suggest rentokill, by no stretch of the imagination are mice people. Maybe they should be banned because they are illegal immigrants who refuse to speak English :)

Gangs, riots etc. are a symptom of social inequity not race, my first sighting of a “riot” was in England no race involved Mods v Rockers 400 of them having a good punch-up because they were different. Triumph and Norton v Vespa and Lambretta.

Nice try but thin on evidence, just more I don’t like them because they are different. They are not different, they are people.
I fear for my country when obviously bright young kids like you know no better, I can’t blame you it is all you have been taught by the vile government we have had in power for the majority of your young life.

I really don’t give a stuff, I will be lucky to live much longer, But you can make things better, don’t let the easy path of racial vilification overtake you.

Rainier,

Why do you consider RSL patrons to be an "ethnic" group?

"puleeze" what? You assume I have no knowledge of your perspective on the world, and am just another Manufactured Consentor. I am very familiar with your adolescent Chomsky/Pilger conception of the world, as well as with what so many in search of foundational meaning and purpose find so appealing about it. Adolescent crap that fulfils the teen spirit I say!

Ever considered that a tacit premise of such anti-Americanism is that the U.S. is assumed to be the only agent of responsibility (i.e. worhty of criticism) on earth? You've been brainwashed, not me.

I suppose you'de vote Al Jazera No 1

‘Race simply isn’t skin deep, the plain fact is that racial heritage affects real world performance.”

Steve,
I had a better post, but decided to answer your “keyans are only good at long distance cause its their national sport” Statement. Do you actually believe that. I have a distinct feeling, if Kenyans immigrated to Australia, their children to, would have a better chance, then white kids, at being good at long distance running.

http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/national_post_2001.htm

“East and North Africans who share an evolutionary history have clocked more than 60% of the best times ever run in distance races. Kenyans win 40% of international events.” “The Nandi district in East Africa's Great Rift Valley, with only 500,000 people -- 1/12,000 of Earth's population -- wins an unfathomable 20%, marking the greatest concentration of raw athletic talent in sports history”. SNIP
"Very many in sports physiology would like to believe that it is training, the environment, what you eat that plays the most important role," "But we argue based on the data that it is in your genes whether or not you are talented or whether you will become talented. The extent of the environment can always be discussed but it's less than 20%, 25%." SNIP
Humans are different, a product of the inseparable relationship of genes and environment. Popular thinking, still reactive to the historical misuse of "race science," lags this new bio-cultural model of human nature. Society pays a large price for not discussing this subject openly, if carefully.

I mean Richard Dawkins believes this. Stephen Hawkins backs him up and refers to him in he’s books when he (briefly) moves away from more complicated subjects to the supposedly obvious subject of evolution.

“I can’t blame you it is all you have been taught by the vile government we have had in power for the majority of your young life.”-steve, I don’t listen to them. I make my own opinions and judgements based on my own observations, and if I listen to any one, its Richard dawkins and Stephen Hawkins.

Either your wrong, or your Smarter then Stephen Hawkins, which one?

Abyss-mal?

Why do you consider RSL patrons NOT to be an "ethnic" group?

They do have an ethnicity don’t they?

And if they do wouldn’t you consider this ethnicity to be unaccountable to how we sociologically define all ethic interactions? Why do you argue for this ethnicity to be deemed invisible?

What an odd premise this is!
•
You scribbled: “You assume I have no knowledge of your perspective on the world”
.
I wouldn’t assume you knew anything actually.

• Apparently I only read Leftist propaganda – LOL!

I’ve read everything from Hitler’s Mien Kampf to Phantom comics. Do you really think you are what you read? How shallow of you -, really, you need to get out more. There’s big wide world of ideas waiting patiently to save you from your own ideological prison. Go on, give it a go. I won’t laugh at you! Promise.

And finally - correct me if I’m wrong but I do believe the Democrats have recently regained some respectability for America’s flailing world reputation.

Me anti-American? No way.

I just loathe fascism anywhere anytime, especially when it purports to be ‘democratic’.

Just to demonstrate to you that I do appreciate your comments here’s a lovely quote from comrade Noam himself -

“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all”

Peace brother!

Logic,

I wasn’t disagreeing with the concept of there being no difference between human brains at the DNA level what I was disputing, was that this argument of sameness is always used to defend multiculturalism. I was explaining that the brain is hardwired to be tribal therefore it is antimulticultural.
Take tribalism out of the equation by having lots of intermarriage between the ethnic groups(intergration) and you lesson the danger of territorial warfare.

I believe that at the DNA level man is the same species the world over and no race is superior to another. But then I don’t believe wars are about superiority. I believe that mankind is involved in a race for genetic survival and so we go out of our way to ensure the survival of those who have the closest genetic links to us.

I think my post was probably a bit confusing as to what I meant , comes of not being able to think straight when I sit up too late at night , sorry.

you need a good smack Obviously - you are young, it seems, full of piss and vinegar - you will have to wait until tomorrow night but - ...maybe by then you might have grownup a bit - your early humble intro- ooooh I am only young and new here "- belied the under current of hatred and arrogance so typical of your kind"- you'll keep

What a load of crapola! People who disagree with multiculturalism are not evil people, they just hold a different opinion. However, such is the view of the blind set of ignorant fools such as this author. You only have to see read the language to see that this mug would sell out his own family. Shameful, very shameful.

Multiculturalism is a farce because it does not encourage people get along with each other but segregates them. I have been in stores in Cabramatta to witness non-Asians refused service. If that happened the other way, mugs like this author would be up in arms.

Assimilation is not the way either. The key in intergration where people can keep who they are but have to integrate and follow societies written and unwritten laws of the nation they move to.

Being multiculturalism is to accept all of one's culture including honour killings, female circumcision and more. We pick and choose what we want. We take the food, watch the dances and say..."How pretty", yet we say no to everything else. If you want to keep all your own way, stay where you are. You move to any other nation, integrate and become one with the community.

Spider

I will try again. WE ARE ALREADY MULTICULTURAL.

"You move to any other nation, integrate and become one with the community."

By this reasoning the First Fleeters and the rest of us should have all adopted the Aboriginal culture!

When the First Fleeters decided to stick to their own culture(s) which of the several new introductions should they have followed?

And should the Aborigines have changed their culture to that of the invaders or stayed with their own? And which invader culture, the Protestants, the Irish Catholics the Jews (or the convicts)?

When the Chinese arrived which of the many existing cultures should they have followed? And which should later immigrant groups follow?

If one culture is to be imposed on all the rest, which one and why?

That the majority of 'cultural groups' have contributed significantly to the social fabric of this nation more than they have damaged it.

But this fact goes relatively untold in this never ending witch-hunt for isolated incidents to paint non-white groups with the same brush.

I sometimes wonder if its cultural envy because there really isn't a cohesive and tangible white Australian culture, just symbols and trinkets and national days. Real Cultures are something much more substantive that this.

It’s embarrassing for me to read such uneducated and uncultured views coming from so called 'true blue Aussies' reminiscing and lamenting a national cultural renaissance that was - and will never be.

Racist sentimentality for a largely imagined white Australian culture is nothing more than a culture of racism dressed up in the charades of nationalist iconography. What’s so hard to understand about this? I see and hear it all the time. Oi oi oi

Rainier & Logic,

Passionate & sensible comments.

Peace,

T

Deary me - the racial determinists have a new champion - Young Obviously - in a matter of a few posts has gone from a timid self declared newbee to a bastion of conservative views and attitudes that ring with echoes of the White Australia policy.

The myths he clings to about race simply are just that - from a genetic point of view there is actually greater differences within racial groups than between them - that is you are more likely to have a vastly different genetic code from the white guy down the street to that of your swarthy Iraqi living in Sheparton or Brunswick - or the sprightly Kenyan chasing Chris Mottram around the park - or the nut bag running North Korea - Isn't that a comforting thought?

Ah how I yearn for the diversity of Brunswick - the shops, the smells the streets where the average chick can be fully outfitted in one shop - Give us a burqua with the lot thanks!

As long as we have kids harbouring the kind of myths cluttering up Obviously's head there is a slim possibility his dire predictions about social disharmony might come true - that is why so many feel compelled to highlight the grave error of his ways.

As for me I still think the Obviously scenario of social uproar is highly unlikely to visit us - like I have said b4 most of this MC drivel has been driven by the irrational fear fostered by the two Bumbling Bees - Bush and Blair - Here like elsewhere the Islamophobia has spiled over into the MC debate and here we all are shooting the breeze together - about pretty much nothing. Go back to your villages

Spider,
"If that happened the other way," (non-white shopholder refusing whites service)IF?? Which country/planet are you living on man? white refusal to serve non-whites happens daily, is part of our 'culture' - Wake UP to yourself!

Logic
First Fleeters used Terra Nullius to claim Aus. They believed there was NOONE pre-extant to them in Australia to have a culture to adopt, hence we now have the First National UK-based (so the Dutch and other Eurotrash foreigners could not claim it for being here first)Culture - but we aren't racist it's just these Abo's don't exist or aren't human - take your pick.

Rainier, (while back)
Unsure if you confused Ghandi with George Bernard Shaw's quote "Chritianity: Possibly a good idea. If anybody tried it"
No so-called 'christian' political leader ever has.

I (mis?)heard Ghandi quoted as saying after someone had handed him a bible while in prison and asked what he thought of Christians - 'Christianity is a wonderful religion. I have yet to meet any Christians in this world'. This must have been after his London Education

Ghandi Quotes:
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
"There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but none that I am prepared to kill for."
"Yes I am (Hindu). I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."
"Where there is ONLY a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence."

Gandhi believed that at the CORE of every religion was Truth and Love (compassion, nonviolence and the Golden Rule). He also questioned hypocrisy, malpractices and dogma in all religions and was a tireless social reformer.

He was prepared to put his life where his mouth was, fasting until his wishes were met by his fellow Indians. He was Assassinated by a Hindu radical after he achieved independence for 600 million Hindu's and Muslim's from British colonialism and demanded his Hindu's abide by the terms of the agreement they made, but were trying to welch out on, with Indian Muslims to separate and reparate, to avoid the deaths of millions...

(cont.)

Ghandi was educated at University College London (Red will Love that 'fuel' for his 'fire') and became a barrister. Western 'Culture' taught him, through personal experience, who the true racist's are and he developed ALL his major values (and even got his education) courtesy of non-western caste culture and non-western philosophy and religion. In spite of this he was voted runner-up to Albert Einsten as Person of the 20th Century by western culture's Time magazine. A feat neither benjamin or, at the rate he's going Obviously, will ever come close to.

Benjamin and Obviously to note - Ghandi was a 'cesspit' dwelling non-westerner who's values and humanitarian ideas were self-taught, albeit borrowing some of the common features of Humanity even western cultures claim to follow but show scant regard for (like equality towards all men) and could teach you more about humanity than you are ever likely to 'get' at the rate you are going.

I correct myself - benjamin is NOT a maggot - maggots have a Necessary purpose. Maggots do not have free will and an ability to determine truth from fiction that allows them to choose to be unlike the other maggots who only operate from instinct rather than intelligence. A feature benjamin and, from the sounds of his latest posts theme, Obviously, might also share.

If the Policy of Mutliculturalism (hating that word more) allows Australia to be more affected by the likes of Ghandi and less by the likes of Benjamin then it is no bad thing. If what some pose is true however, and all it brings in are reasons for bigot's to thrive and distrust of other cultures, ethnicities, etc. to grow and fester and destroy those values of freedom and tollerance for all who value it, that our fathers fought two world wars for, then, if that sad case is true, it should be stopped now!

How do we decide? By majority vote? Or rational reason? Just who ARE the majority here? (OLO) - and who are the most rational ones?

Logic……. If we had all stuck to your “logic” we would be running around Australia with out any pants on, sticking spears in one another, sleeping in grass huts and eating grasshoppers. Tell me one benefit white Australians have gained from living with aboriginals. (no disrespect to aboriginals, just torpedoing logic) New cultures are welcome as long as the benefits they bring out weight the negative!

I don’t think there is a single culture in the world that can add anything to western culture. I am sure some of you people will say that they can add things “it being nice having them around” and “silly dance routine” or “some stone age ritual” I don’t know how any of these things benefit Australia but according to some they do………….

I think half the problem with people who are pro MC is that they have no sense of nation. A nation is a group of people with common beliefs and attitudes. With this MC is only doing only one thing which is destroying our concept of a Australia as a nation. After all if everybody on earth was so alike we would all be living in peace with a one world government and all peoples would be at almost identical stages in there social and economic frameworks. We are not alike (which is good and bad) and I still have not seen a single argument saying that if we stopped MC tomorrow we will be worse off

Braindrain & Mercurious & Steve Madden,

I'll give it one last attempt, but I'm not surprised by the irrational name-calling, although if I wasn't nice I would complain and have you suspended.

Grow up.

Both have failed miserably to answer, and I suspect the bitter anger towards me reveals you are either supremacist Islamists, or their far leftist allies, or simply incapable.

I will attempt one last time to explain, but if all you do is call me names I will conclude that none of you can show how western values are inferior to those of other cultures, such as the barbaric Indian caste system or Islamic Sharia.

Coupled with your anger, your refusal to answer only shows you know my argument is sound.

You comment on Iraq as a civilisation, thereby bringing genetics into it, a tactic used by racists, revealing your prejudices by commenting that I am asking "what has Iraq done lately?"

How little you understand me, pre-judging me without knowing.

By smearing "my ancestors with mud on their faces", you again reveal racism, bringing skin colour in (if you read my last post you will know that white skin is irrelevent, it's actually quite inferior to be honest, what with melanoma)...some white supremacist I am!

Of course mesopotamia was the cradle, so what? What has inventions of cultures got to do with it? I simply subscribe to the view that westerners live better, in a moral & values sense, and it seems two million non-westerners - who flock to the west each year agree with me.

What makes you so furious about this reality?

You mention the west ripping off technology from the third world, again revealing prejudice yet talk about an ignorace of history! It was the values of the European enlightenment that led to profound discoveries, all of course built on the work of other civilisations, but so what?

I bet your so ignorant you don't know that only 1.5% of all slavery was committed by the west, and that Britain & the U.S actually stopped slavery, at home and abroad, at significant cost...

..Although, in Australia, and other western countries, we still have slavery cases - all involve those from non-western countries, here is just one example of a Muslim telling a U.S court that it is his culture to behave in such manner (which is all I am saying yet you attack me viciously).

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2006/11/014093print.html

There have been many slave cases this year in the U.S I've followed, all involving Muslims, not southern Texans.

Australia had it's first slavery case this year, again it was a non-westerner. I believe such instances occur because the cultural values of such groups are excellent breeding grounds for intolerance, as seen in their own nations conclusively.

On western history, which you deride, why do you want to see western history as filth? This is racist.

You bring up Iraqi history to show that our culture came from here, again this is true. What is your point?

All I'm saying is that we have better values, morality. It can only be that you consider us all different tribes that you bring this up in the first place.

I don't think that way.

It doesn't matter that civilisation started there, it's about the way we live now. Whether people can handle criticism, have safety nets for the poor, treat each other fairly, it is this I am proud of about Europe and the west.

But all are invited to live like this. Just because the enlightenment happened in Europe doesn't mean it's an exclusively white thing.

You claim all culture has virtues, again revealling ignorance. Does this extend to the Taliban, or Nazi Germany, or southern Texan rednecks?

You can't possibly believe Nazi Germany, even though highly advanced technologically, were good people. They only extended tolerance to those who thought the same way.

I am not against those of other cultures, I am against their values, and despite your vitriol, you haven't shown me that it is racist.

I also forgive you for your insults.

anti-Benjamin-bigot

"There have been many slave cases this year in the U.S I've followed, all involving Muslims, not southern Texans"

Try reading something other than Islamic hate sites you may learn something.

http://www.polarisproject.org

I will apologise for calling you a maggot, the other adjectives still stand.

Go on complain and have us suspended, didn't you know dobbing is un- Australian.

You are the one showing peurile tendancies, sorry I won't grow up I nearly hit my head in doorways already. :)

logic,
Australia has not been multicultural since the first fleet. We have been multi-racial, which is an entirely different thing. Everyone was subject to British law (even aboriginals)until 1900 (Federation). After that Australia began its own identity. Since then we have evolved a different culture from Britain. We do not have the same social hierarchy as Britain, and our Senate is based on the USA Senate.

The term multicultural did not come into being until about 1972, when Al Grazzby borrowed it from Canada.

How can you say we are multicultural when we do not allow so many aspects of other cultures. Our laws take precedenance over any other religous or cultural beliefs. Child marriages and FGM are important aspects of other cultures in India and Middle East/north Africa but not allowed here.

We are mono-cultural, but with an acceptance of other cultural aspects providing they do not transgress our basic cultural values.
So other cultures can practice SOME of their culture, like religion, folk dancing, music, their cusine and so on.

Rainier,
" That the majority of cultural groups have contributed signifiently to the social fabric of this nation more than they have damaged it".

I agree, but you cannot claim that multiculturalism is responsible for this as the contributions of those that came before multiculturalism was even thought of wsas also of great significance.
So multiculturalism does not have anthing to do with that.

As I have said before, multiculturalism divides people into tribes or groups, each trying to find their place in the pecking order and lobbying politicians to get that place. Politicians are the only one to gain from multiculturalism by chasing the ethnic vote. that is why Labor politicians go to the end of Ramadam at Lakembla and John Howard will be guest speaker at a big Chinese dinner before the next election.

Banjo, you ask whether laws that ban certain cultural practices mean we fail to be a genuinely multicultural society. I think not. I mean, the British recently banned fox-hunting. Does that make them less British?

An Englishman today cannot bait bears, hunt foxes, go to a public execution, beat his wife, or smoke inside a pub; but I’ll be you he feels just as much an Englishman as one who used to do all those things quite legally in generations past. Culture isn’t fixed, it changes and evolves like everything else. Ask me to find a culture that is fixed, eternal and unchanging, and I’ll show you Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt...you get the idea.

Culture is more than a set of practices, and it certainly isn’t demarcated by laws: it’s an identity – and that identity can also change and evolve, through any permutation of legal changes or, for that matter, changes of homeland.

So I think your distinction between multiculturalism and integration is a false dichotomy. They’re not mutually exclusive. You can identify yourself by any number of different “labels” and none of those need preclude you from contributing to Australian society.

Go back and look at the initial policy frameworks of multiculturalism as devised by Al Grassby and as promoted by Fraser – and today under Andrew Robb. There’s nothing there that precludes integration: it simply allows people to participate in Australian life while bringing with them other aspects of their identity.

The Australianer-than-thou people on this forum howling their outrage at multiculturalism, and the belief that different laws present a problem for cultural identity, all assume quite wrongly that culture is fixed, that multiculturalism means wholesale acceptance of other cultures, that change is a weakness and our brains are genetically fixed to think certain thoughts.

Since “obviously” is such a fan of Richard Dawkins, he should be aware of the power of memes in influencing thought. He should also know that genetic studies have found more genetic difference within ethnic groups than between ethnic groups, despite the “extreme” differences he postulates.

Benjamin, yet again you are asking me to deny that which I never said. The written record shows I’ve said nothing to you about Iraq, about “mud on faces” or Mesopotamia or the west stealing technologies from the developing world. I haven’t called you “irrational names”. I’ve even defended you against the most egregious insults hurled your way in this place. I’ve not written in anger, or fury, and I defy anybody to find such in my comments. Yet Benjamin you ascribe all this, and worse, to me.

The written record of my comments throughout this forum and others shows the many elements of Western cultures I have praised – and those I have criticised – which is a far more even-handed treatment of the West than your triumphal, one-eyed, unquestioning praise.

Yet despite all this, in return, you offer to me the McCarthyist tactic of putting words in my mouth and asking me to deny I said them. This is the same Star-Chamber, Stalinist show-trial treatment you gave me when we last debated two weeks ago.

I concluded then you were debating in bad faith, and decided it was best to ignore your comments in future. When I saw your comments on this forum, I thought to give you the benefit of the doubt and respond. I shall not make that mistake a second time, and I won’t be verballed by you again in this place.

And for the record, I did show in my post of November 20 precisely in what fashion your comments were racist; in that you attribute certain characteristics to certain ethnic groups based upon their prevalence in certain occupations. That you would ascribe this to race without consideration of other factors is textbook racism.

But, I have learnt my lesson – debating you is a waste of time because you do so in bad faith.

Sneekepete,mercurius

“The myths he clings to about race simply are just that - from a genetic point of view there is actually greater differences within racial groups than between them”-sneekepete ,
accept that difference between races and species is considered the important factor of evolution, as opposed to the difference in the genetic pool of an isolated population. I will expand later.

“The myths he clings to about race simply are just that - from a genetic point of view there is actually greater differences within racial groups than between them”-sneekepete ,
Sneeke you’re not just in my opinion, but also infact factually wrong in not admitting to race. Race does exist As follows....

Stick with me now (concentrate), an example of your flawed statement.

Think of 100 individuals of one distinct race ( RACE A) as cups of water.
Each cup (individual) is filled with different amounts (types of genes) of water.
Now think of 100 individuals of another distinct race (RACE B) as cups of water.
Once again each cup(individual) is filled with different amounts(types of genes) of water.

The difference within RACE A’s cups of water (individuals) is 50ml to 250ml, meaning 200ml (or 200 genes difference within RACE A.)
Now the difference within RACE B’s cups of water (individuals) is between 100ml and 250ml (or 150 genes difference within RACE B)

Now we compare RACE A with RACE B, meaning 150genes and 200genes (only 50 unique genes difference between racial groups)

CONCLUSION:
200 genes difference within RACE A.
150 genes difference within RACE B.
*only 50 (unique to each race) genes difference between racial groups A and B*

SUMMARY:
But here’s the catch.

Those 50 genes are the most important, they are the distinct genes that cause the RACIAL characteristics!

Those 50 genes in that test case, play an extremely important role in defining a race’s physical and mental characteristics, i.e. (straight/curly hair, bone/facial structure, hormones, muscle development, cognitive(<wont expand on that), development patterns, parts of (culture), susceptibility to diseases, intolerance to alcohol, hunter/gatherer, tribe to civilization mentality......etc)

The importance of these unique racial genes?
Cont.....

If part of Race A’s (50 unique genes) is as in the above example of water, e.g salt, now theirs a fundamental and real difference between A and B. We now have salt water and fresh water. We have our races.

^ That statement goes to prove that percentage “from a genetic point of view there is actually greater differences within racial groups than between them”, is not correlated with importance.

Neanderthal shared 99.95% of DNA as we do, thus showing that the most minute differences are the most important between RACES and SPECIES.
A monkey (not sure which one) has 98% the same DNA as us. Once again that minute 2% difference (as opposed to the genetic diversity amongst an isolated population of humans being bout 15%), plays the most important role. As the 2% led to a hairy creature (species) who spends his time in the tree’s, as apposed to a hairless, biped, making mass civilizations and using advanced communication.

Mercuris- memes do not explain anatomical differences amongst different peoples brains.

This statement “should like to see the research that you have done to justify that brains are different between races. Have you produced a new theory which supercedes DNA “-Logic, the Tasmanian aboriginals had 13,000 yrs of pure isolation and got their unique DNA. Theirs your case study. They were a true race!

Your only grounds for an argument come from the plausible fact that “if one person of African decent broke into the European population, then he would have an 80% chance of being the father of all Europeans alive today.”-dawkins. Though technically true “but the genes of this person would over thousands of years become so diluted, that it is in fact plausible, that none (genes) would have survived’-dawkins. So the Europeans became a race!

But if anyone tells me that race does not exist, if anyone tells me that the Tasmanian Aboriginals were NOT a race (due to 13,000 years of genetic isolation), they then refuse to believe in evolution, and suffer from an inability to take the multicultural blindfold off and notice reality.I,now,know,a,way,to,get,around,the,word,limit,but,will,not,abuse,this,site.

5 THINGS EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT RACE (USA context, but relevant here as well) http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm

Our eyes tell us that people look different. No one has trouble distinguishing a Czech from a Chinese. But what do those differences mean? Are they biological? Has race always been with us? How does race affect people today?

There's less - and more - to race than meets the eye:

1. Race is a modern idea. Ancient societies, like the Greeks, did not divide people according to physical distinctions, but according to religion, status, class, even language. The English language didn't even have the word 'race' until it turns up in 1508 in a poem by William Dunbar referring to a line of kings.

2. Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.

3. Human subspecies don't exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans simply haven't been around long enough or isolated enough to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface appearances, we are one of the most similar of all species.

4. Skin color really is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently from one another. The genes influencing skin color have nothing to do with the genes influencing hair form, eye shape, blood type, musical talent, athletic ability or forms of intelligence. Knowing someone's skin color doesn't necessarily tell you anything else about him or her.

5. Most variation is within, not between, "races." Of the small amount of total human variation, 85% exists within any local population, be they Italians, Kurds, Koreans or Cherokees. About 94% can be found within any continent. That means two random Koreans may be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian

Banjo

You are confusing law with culture. Our laws often forbids culturally derived practices. eg smoking in pubs, drink driving, child marriages.

You are also confusing the existence of mixed cultures with a government backed policy that acknowledges that this cultural diversity exists rather than trying to socially discourage variations.

When my Jewish niece married a boy of Irish Catholic background all the guests joined in both traditional Jewish circle dancing and Irish jigs. Guinness was drunk by both sides. And they all loved it. That is what multiculturalism is about.

Obviously - look to the facts no one is denying the existence of race - go back and read what I said - it is however merely a label to differentiate - between groups.

Raineir has spelt it out in more detail than I can bother with - but read his post carefully - it is easy

Go back to the books - there are genetic differences - minor - cosmetic - BUT as I said there is a greater likely hood that there are more differences (genetic) between you and me - assuming you are a white anglo type as am I - than between me and Osama Bin Laden or Idi Amin.

It might be convenient to think the way you do but you are mistaken.

I know it is an old remedy to what seems to ail you - and you may never have even heard of it - but I suggest you take a Bex and have a good lie down - you seem a little frazzled at the moment.

It seems my vitriol (and support of similar-minded OLO'ers - apologies to those i offended with it) has achieved some purpose and benjamin can now express ideas without relying on the racist-type language that i showed was so prevalent in earlier posts (undercurrents do still exist in his new Clark Kent persona).

I’m still waiting for an answer on what:
'people' you think I am;
my 'Slogan' is that is all I am to you; and
which 'cesspool' i crawled out of?

You currently seem to think I must be a:
Supremacist Islamist,
one of their far-leftist allies, or
incapable.

It is you who is incapable of understanding that I am a moderate who is passionately opposed to the kind of simplistic bigotry you first chose to express your ideas with (moreso than the ideas themselves), as much as i am to the fanaticism within the followers of all religions, not just Islam.

Now that we are both able to clearly and more rationally express ourselves, lets find some common ground, since it seems MC requires we both live in the same country, leaving our mutual disgust in the playground where it belongs, OK?

I 'prejudged' you on the basis of the 'style' of argument presented and your apparent incapability of seeing anything other than your own self-righteousness. That style has lately been modified. I don't yet see in you an ability to see much, if any, further - sorry to say, but it is what your choices of words evoke.

It’s impossible to address your questions directly without acknowledging they have some kind of legitimacy and I and many others do not believe in legitimising even slightly, the limited view you adopt your belief and perception to. If that makes us weak in your eyes, so be it. It’ll bring you nothing but grief in the long run. The world won’t side with you over Reality.

I urge ALL to look up 'Confirmation Bias' and read why it’s 'the most subversive of all behavioural FLAWS'. We ALL have it. Some to extreme degrees.

Iraq was brought in to (cont.)

show non-western culture was far advanced of western culture at one point and that it still carries much that's of value and today we are richer for it - a fact completely lost on you. You accuse me of bringing genetics into it - nothing is further from truth but you cannot see that. Why?

'smearing "my ancestors with mud on their faces", you again reveal racism':
Wrong! I was not smearing or being racist - the smear was of actual warpaint (woad) on a person's face (still done by western military to this day), NON-derogatory and was to describe the period in your ancestor's evolution relative to Iraq's for comparison and appreciation - not to imply 'anglo's are inferior as you seem to want to make it. It seems you are the one who has to grow up here? I am not the one making ill-informed claims of cultural superiority.

Although the west has ripped-off a little technology (Chinese Gunpowder) that also was not what i was saying. I meant the West rips off the third world (and ensures they stay third world in the process) by consuming their resources, including labour, without giving FAIR compensation. We get benefits, companies make huge profits, they get to stay in poverty and are paid a pittance of the nett wealth. Slavery was a minute fraction of the ripoff.

The Real motivation for your millions migrating? to where the Money is! (values fall a distant second).

Western 'culture' is far more 'advanced' than female genital mutilation - we just cut boy's foreskins off. Western culture has made pornography into an accepted part of free-enterprise while hypocritically making censorship laws forbidding the display of love and affection (killing is fine). Laws against drugs and paedophilia while some members of the moral elite indulge in one or both (unless 'caught'). When did christianity wipe paedophilia from it's clergy?

You show only the worst of non-western culture and equate it with a concocted half-fantasy of the best from western culture. That is what I call 'racist'. 'Me'-good,-them-bad. Follow any of that? Try-putting-the-worst-of-Western-up-against-the best-of-the-rest-and-see how-you-go? (Sorry-OLO)

Braindrain……………. The people in the 3rd world are poor for 2 reason 1. They are not civilized and have not gone through a gradual change over hundreds of years like people in the west have and 2. The main reason they are still poor is because of hideous dictators and criminals I mean officials who run there countries. The 2nd reason is the main one and if we could just get rid of the corruption these people/countries would start on their way to catching up with the west.

From what I am reading in your posts Braindrain you seem to think that the west and the rest seem to be equal when in comes to the issues of morals and you stumbled around trying to prove this by compare female circumcision in Africa with that of baby boys in Australia. You should look into how each of these is done and then you will see that they are worlds apart.

The only reason pedophilia is seen in the west is because we have the time and money to chase these people. Other countries are just trying to make ends meat and don’t have the time or resources to investigate or track these people down.

The West is as equal in morals with non western countries as we are when in comes to economics development.

Obviously and Banjo, admitting ignorance is not a weakness, staying loyal to lies is. You were taught and acculturated into believing big porkpies about race and racism growing up (so was I).

But its time to move on now and get with it. I sense that you want to be fair minded etcetera, but this is contradicted and compromised by those same myths you think are facts.

Others here have taken the time to explain very important perspectives to you both and others. You don't owe them anything other than to try and understand what they are saying and acknowledging it to yourselves.

Racism is a white problem and white people need to work with each other to confront it. The effort must begin with an understanding of the privilege that comes with being white. . .white is normative, average, ideal, and therefore preferred.

Racism is not my problem but i know its effects all too well.

Rainer, Rainier, Rainier.

What i have said is not a lie. i was quoting dawkins. if i am lying then he too was lying to me. im gettin sick of people taking my quotes from dawkins as someone's racist opinion.

"people have more difference in genes bewteen races as opposed to races compared to each other".

well a stunning conclusion is that, for particular genes, you are more closely related to some chipanzees than to some humans (me included), lets bring them over and join our multi-cultural mission.

"BUT as I said there is a greater likely hood that there are more differences (genetic) between you and me - assuming you are a white anglo type as am"- but once again rainier, now listen closly, as with the chimp to human comparisson, the more differences (genetic) between you and me, dosnt mean anything, as PERCENTAGE(amount of genes) dosnt CORRESPOND WITH ITS IMPORTANCE!

conclusion "race does exist, people prefer their own type, certain types will always (at evryones peril) struggle to intergrate, and i really do believe multi-culturalism will unravel spectacuarly one day across "australia,europe etc"

Obviously, either you're profoundly dyslexic or just too proud to admit you have it all wrong.

In terms of your arguments, I'll take my cues from genetic science and scientists thanks. They are much more reliable than your convoluted mix of racism, culturalism and animal behaviour theories.

And by the way, I'm not white. But we may indeed share exactly same genetic makeup and lets just assume that we do - because it just proves quite clearly that intellectual competencies are not informed by genes.

Lets change the word genetics to KIN.The mature cells (adults) split off and create new cells (CHILDREN) . Its called the cycle of life. We old cells reproduce to have some chance at cellular (genetic) immortality in the coming millenniums here on earth.
It is our ONLY chance at immortality if heaven turns out to be not real.

We will guard our cellular offspring (our children) with out life. We also know that our extended family has cellular connection to us. We know our tribe also has the CLOSEST cellular connection to us through tribal intermarriage.
If we feel our kin are being denied access to the resources they need to survive we will go to war or commit acts of violence if necessary to ensure that although we as the old cells must die our closest related cells will survive.
Its that simple no matter what some science textbook may say about genetics.

if i have it wrong, dawkins has it wrong, site "The Ancestors's Tale", read it!

If a lion as a species is so closely related genetically that there is virtually no difference between them then why do male lions go out of their way to prevent other lions from mating with their females. They obviously instinctively know that their offspring are genetically closer to them than another lion.

Humans although they may share much the same DNA with other humans are also aware that those they have most recently bred amongst are more closely linked to them.
This idea that some scientists are trying to push to stop war among mankind that the genetic connection with people we haven’t bred with for a thousand years or not at all is no different to people we have recently bred with is obviously flawed.

Rainier,
What a dissappointment you are, at least Logic and Mercurius attempted to argue their point of vieww. You have no arguement so you launch a personal attack. You first labeled me a "monoculturist xenophobic" and now you say I am "racist". Well let all see you substanciate those claims.

Also, if you consider Australia a multicultural society then show where my assesment that we are simply multi-racial is incorrect.

In case you have lost the thread of the debate, I will say it again.

We are a multi-racial society and not multicultural. We only allow aspects of other cultures that do not transgress our basic laws, values and social standards. Therefore we should not claim to be multicultural. In doing so we are fooling ourselves and deceiveing others. We should be upfront and honest, especially with prospective migrants.

Multiculturalism is a theorecical ideology that in practice is a farce. The sooner we begin a policy of integration the more harmonious our community will be.

You are very good at the odd snide remark, now let us see your debating skills.

Part I

Hey Braindrain,

you said:

"Although the west has ripped-off a little technology (Chinese Gunpowder) that also was not what i was saying. I meant the West rips off the third world (and ensures they stay third world in the process) by consuming their resources, including labour, without giving FAIR compensation. We get benefits, companies make huge profits, they get to stay in poverty and are paid a pittance of the nett wealth. Slavery was a minute fraction of the ripoff."
and...

"The Real motivation for your millions migrating? to where the Money is!"

First, name any major invention that has not come out of post-enlightenment culture? And by that I include anyone, of any race or background, who grew up and was influenced by a European enlightenment culture and so learned how to be inquisitive, open to new ideas etc, scientific and inventive.
Give us some proof that the West "steals" all the resources from the third world. Also, who gets "huge benefits"?, China?, Japan? or South Korea or even Taiwan? How much of the exploitation that happens in China for instance (and I use China as an example because they produce most of the worlds basic factory goods) is for the benefit of the West as compared to the benefit of China do you think? Why do you think China grows so rapidly and the their poverty reduces so rapidly (although not fast enough); why do you think South Korea and Japan are successful 'once backwater Asian nations' (to use bigoted imperialist jargon) now, but there are many other nations such as North Korea, most of Africa and the Middle East that are poor, divided and weak? To put it all down to the first thing you see is childishly simplistic. 'Oh, me see a rich man next to a poor man so me think rich rich man take from poor man'! You idiot!

continued....

Part II

Why do you think that at the time Columbus found the Americas, the Spanish and English nations and cultures were just as civilised and rich, but now their respective colonies show what I am talking about. All the Spanish/Portuguese colonies are corrupt and weak while all the British colonies are peacefule, stable places of wealth.
Oh yeh, and the FACT that slavery (not including that that still happens today all over the non-Western world) was 98.8% committed by non-Atlantic countries, but that those such as yourself think otherwise, only further strengthens the belief that those such as myself hold, that contrary to your greatest fears, you and your ilk are bred and trapped by the anti-American, anti-Anglo Hollywood mentality. That's right, you think that the USA is God and ALL of earth's history is just the history of the British empire, meaning that any other culture or peoples are nothing and not worth even acknowledging as equals or even there. Yes buddy, this is what you think deep down in your little subconscious, racist mind of yours!

Oh yeh, and this is real antiBigot, my brother Benjamin was just using my account before.

Braindrain, Mercurious, Steve Madden (wasn't that a gridiron game on PC a few years back?)

I take your repeated non-answers to mean that you indeed can't show how my assertion that western values are SUPERIOR to non-western values.

Steve Madden trys to counter my point with evidence to support my point, thank you, no wonder you're all so angry!

On your link it shows WESTERNERS who help the victims of NON-WESTERN slavery. Now, unless you can find a site where Texans own blacks, you are on my side.

Again, just because it's mostly Muslims who traffic in slavery (western world involvement less than 2% of world market back then, 0% now) doesn't mean I am anti-Muslim, as you can just as easily find African or Asian slave traffickers.

The point is, they are all NON-WESTERN.

Braindrain laughably claims that migrants only come here for money, and this comment shows he doesn't even read his adversary's posts, as I already answered this.

Can you show me where third worlders are flocking to Japan, Saudi Arabia, other gulf states - which are all very wealthy? Of course you can't.

I can show you though that many Asian migrants go there for work and are held captive, raped, not paid. It's so bad the U.N have been pressuring Arab nations to consider Asians human beings!

That point was your weakest yet Braindrain.

No wonder you far leftists with your slogans of "bigot" or "supremacist" - even though I've showed it's you who are racist by bringing genetics into this debate with your vile "ancestors with mud on their faces" remark.

Thankfully, most posts see this.

Argument finished, Braindrain must have been the one who was always left off the debating team, although to be fair, you had no chance showing that western values are inferior to non-western values, and so at least you...well, no, you didn't try.

I'll answer one aspect of Madden's post that I didn't before, about me suffering his wrath for questioning the loyalty of non-western migrants, who don't join the police, fire, ambulance, military, and especially volunteers...

...On an individual case by case I completely agree that one can't question loyalty, but when one notices specific trends across the board, I think it's justified.

I'm very surprised by your claim that when you visited the Defence force to gain entry, a commendable action, that you seen those from these particular groups everywhere.

I'm not doubting you, and it's possible that on a given day there were some, but when the head of army intake says that only a handful applied this year, one tends to listen to him more than one person's experience.

But to call this racist is bizarre, it's simply factual. Is one racist to point out also that Asians become doctors at a very significant rate?

Of course not, and by you saying this earlier, you have made my point for me, thank you.

Again, no wonder you are so angry, your evidence is used by me to prove my case!

By agreeing to this, you are saying that non-westerners aren't discriminated against in the workforce, and indeed, they do dominate the health professions.

While one can argue that the motives in most cases is money and not an ethical affection for society, that is a different argument, although easily proven.

How can you not agree then, that if they don't join the vocations I describe above, that is, the community minded type jobs, this means they care little for our society?

One can show this is the case when one considers their insular culture, the fact that they all live in the same areas (Cabramatta Fairfield, Epping - which both have shocking levels of random violence - the type of which where 30 rats bash one person, often stab) and also that in 1994, 1/3 of all health professionals in the Cabramatta-Fairfield area were involved in the largest Medicare scam in our nations history, one can form fair opinions of this society.

Again, your comments strengthen my case.

Thank you.

Obviously, I know it’s not obvious so you won't be able to see it until someone explains it carefully to you.

Lissen up!

You carefully and cleverly (for your current level of ability) created ONE very specific example through which you tried (alas failed - you really do need someone to teach you about science and experimental method of Hypothesis testing) to explain to us dummies about those '50 genes' (relax! I understand you just gave us the 'General Idea' and it’s not the actual number that’s important to your theme you developed) being the 'really important' ones determining a person's race.

The problem you simply cannot grasp is that however many number of individual genes you think it actually takes to define 'race' sufficiently for your purposes, ALL members of what you believe (falsely) you can identify as belonging to just one race will show more DIFFERENCES in those particular 'racially characteristic' genes (the 50 in your case) BETWEEN THEIR OWN 'race' and more SIMILARITES (in those 50) with members of other 'races' thus completely disproving your own unique brand of 'logic'.

I'll say it more clearly - Genetics shows you to be just plain WRONG! Good attempt at theory - completely inadequate when trying to match it with Reality though.

I repeat – it’s NOT Obvious (dare i say, Black and White?) but as you grow up you may learn, if you keep an open mind, that only the very stupid believe the world is entirely obvious. The more you look, the more you find hidden in it. (There exists an infinite variety of 'grey'). Learn to look beyond the bleedin’ obvious. That helps to eliminate both personal bias and stupidity in one go.

Back to your drawing board, I'm afraid (and use facts others can and have verified scientifically, not just your own opinion, as to what makes a 'race').

Are you familiar with the concept of an Optical Illusion? Race is nature's Optical Illusion... it is more in the eye-of-the-beholder than in reality. All is NOT as it seems to our fallible human mi

Banjo,

I’ve formally studied and researched the underlying premise of your arguments for years. Not that this means jack here. But it should tell you that there are ideas and theories that you have NOT explored or don’t want to take seriously because you already ‘think’ know it all. You don’t. Why persist in believing your knowledge in this area is optimal and unique?

When and if you become much more informed about these issues I’ll be happy to debate you anywhere/anytime. Fundamentally, we are not discussing race/cultural theories – we are discussing your denial of the broader knowledge - scientific, socio- psychological facts about racism and culture.

Your use of culture is particularly problematic in that you appear to think it’s biologically determined. This essentialism in belief underpins and informs how you discuss race and culture as interchangeable but conveniently different when it suits your own prejudices.

For instance if you met me for real you would instantly recognise that I am ‘racially’ different from you but then also familiar with your culture. (whatever it is) This does not mean I’m culturally the same, it just means I have had to adapt while you have the privilege of never having to adapt on a daily basis.
And that’s why you’re a racist Banjo, you don’t understand your own white privilege.

This privilege means that you can:
• Arrange to be in the company of people of your ‘race’ most of the time.
• Or do not have to educate your children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
• feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social

My point is that people from different cultures appear to be clans oriented by those who do not recognise their own clan orientation as a ethnic culture – such as whiteness. Understand fully your own before you proclaim on others?

Can you really tell peoples race or culture by looking at them? You appear to think you can you can. Do this sorting exercise and see how you go – http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_00-home.htm

benjamin and your undeniably misnamed 'brother' antibigot.

You latest rants shows you for who you truly are inside, even when you refuse to see it yourselves - Intelligent people can.

You have both proven yourself incapable of understanding what is written here and why your myopic vision is reviled by most who can be bothered reading it anymore.

I have responded 'appropriately' to you in my discussion on values but i shall, from now on - in what you will only ever be able to perceeive as weakness in me and strength to your closed mind's view of your own supremacy (you claim you are an ethnicist supremacist and I am a 'Supremacist Islamist' or left wing loonie. You only see things in Black and White and are incapable of appreciating or understanding my moderatism) - ignore the pathetic whinings and bigotry of your posts. I had hoped you capable of listening CAREFULLY to rational discussion, you let me down badly. Worse you let yourself down. (Confirmation Bias)

There are none so blind as will not see, blinded as they are by their own hatred to wisdom in the words of others who cannot share their bias, as you continuously and corruptly and inaccurately see in mine.

Goodbye. ( I'm not going anywhere - don't get your hopes up.)

Rainier,
What utter garbage you write. Have you really studied anything?

There are no underlying premises or ideas and theories on my part, but there well may be on your part.

I am a practical person and I deal in facts wherever possible.

Fact 1. Australia is a multi-racial society. (undisputed)
fact 2. Australia does not allow many cultural practises of other cultures. (undisputed)

Conclusion. Australia is multi-racial and NOT multicultural.
We are deceiving others and fooling ourselves to conclude otherwise.

See it is that simple. Race does not come into it at all.

You state that I APPEAR to think that culture is biologically determined. And, I APPEAR to think that I can tell peoples race or culture by looking at them. Where in hell did you get these jems from? You must be smoking some powerfull stuff to reach those conclusions. Dream on!

You have no arguments to counter my assesment so now you try to change the subject into a debate about race. This race debate might suit you better, but I will not chase you strawman, as i have said before I could not care less about anyones ethnicity. It is a persons willingness to be part of our society that is important.

Integration will push aside the divisiveness of multiculturalism.

Brain Drain..

I think gender too is nature’s optical illusion, as I am more closely genetically related to my “sister” then I am to a north Korean male, Therefore gender to cannot exist!

Listen up... these are truly some interesting factual points, that I do believe will change your “optical illusion” theory, to race is reality.

What do you think of this fact in the context of your opinion “Are you familiar with the concept of an Optical Illusion? Race is nature's Optical Illusion...”

Dawkins states “A stunning Conclusion is that, for particular genes, you are more closely related to some chimpanzees than to some humans. And I am closer to some chimpanzees than to you (or to your chimpanzees)-‘The ancestors tale pg55’,
Think about it....
This “stunning conclusion” still allows the statement that “species exist”.

Like Dawkins quote, even though some of my genes are more closely related to a chimpanzees genes then to a fellow humans genes, species still exist (and is not an “optical illusion” but infact reality, species very much do exist)

And the same thing applies for race, some of your Anglo-Saxon genes are more closely related to, say some Sudanese genes then to your fellow (mine) Anglo-Saxons genes, but the same thing applies as in the above example and race too does exist (and is not an “optical illusion” but infact reality). He to (Dawkins) says race’s exist (i.e. Tasmanians 13,000 yrs isolation),

Some more points...

Another point “optical illusion” referring to just appearance. Well just quickly “races produce different chemicals that produce different smells (non optical illusion) difference in race. Chinese, Japanese have an underdeveloped cheek muscle, due to their language evolution that did not require its development, the result of which is the inability to correctly pronounce R’s (no matter how their brought up- (another optical illusion hay)).
They are not optical illusions, but racial realities.

Cont....

Um... Banjo -

"Fact 1. Australia is a multi-racial society. (undisputed)"

By definition, that is a racist statement.

QED

This “race is skin deep” is flawed as the skin is an organ (correct), the brain is an organ (correct), and like the skin evolved through natural selection differences in colour/ability to protect oneself from sun (Africa) but allow enough sun in (Europe), so to did the brain evolve through natural selection due to the different environments cold/hot and way of life hunter/gatherer i.e. aborigines, to say farmers i.e. Chinese.
An example you say...
To prove genes were responsible, and Not culture or education or any other inconceivable notion.

An aboriginal and European were brought up in the same family, they took a spatial awareness test (in a house, they had to remember what goes where) stunningly enough the aborigine was 75% better at this test then the European Australian. Fluke? You ask. No as again after again the aborigines done far better in spatial awareness. The answer you say? Their evolved hunter gatherer lifestyle (i.e. tracking) led to natural selection advancing this capability (special awareness) in their thinking, as opposed to the Europeans farming/cultivating/herding etc.

People have come to the realization that women and men think differently no matter how they are educated or what culture they are from, why cant people come to the realization that races too will think and act differently no matter how they are educated or what culture they came from.

You’ll all see the facts one day when the pc police go away, and the scientists/evolutionists are allowed to release these dam racial statistics without a fear of unnecessary labels being thrown there way.
Multiculturalism is a very very dangerous policy.

“And that’s why you’re a racist Banjo, you don’t understand your own white privilege.
This privilege means that you can:
• Arrange to be in the company of people of your ‘race’ most of the time.”-Raininer

how is that a “white previledge” what about Japanese, Chinese, Sudanese, that really made no sense you know.

One last point, some people on here deny the existence of race, and in the very same paragraph call people racist < how on earth is that possible?And-CJ,is-a-racist-statement-one-that-points-out-the-bleedin-obvious,australia-is-a-multi-racial-society.

obviously: "And-CJ,is-a-racist-statement-one-that-points-out-the-bleedin-obvious,australia-is-a-multi-racial-society."

Yup.

QED.

Again.

Charlie Bradley said: "But the thrust of the educational change that is being promoted by government is towards requiring the narrow, exclusive and superior values of a conservative Australia that never really existed anyway."

Absolutely, western culture, the rule of law, and human rights never really existed in Australia. Therefore, we should end this flimsy facade immediately, and allow the ideology of cultural relativism to prevail. The debauched and racist culture of mainstream Australia must be wiped off the continent to ensure maximum tolerance of all aspects of non-Western culture, including infanticide, torture, slavery, oppression of women, female circumcision etc. as these are obviously far superior to any cultural legacy our contemptuous forefathers established here in this backward nation.

Only until we purge this Western influence can we be truly free of this evil monoculture preventing the complete balkanization of society and the marginalization of mainstream Australia. Notions of integration must be curbed. Minority cultures must take absolute precedence. After all, in a universe with total equality of cultures it would be immoral for a host nation to expect the values, culture, or even language of the majority be adopted by immigrant minorities.

It is my conviction that we multiculturalists shall not rest until the odious legacy of our despicable European ancestors is totally liquidated in favour of total tolerance. Long live multiculturalism!

New research shows that at least 10 percent of genes in the human
population can vary in the number of copies of DNA sequences they
contain--a finding that alters current thinking that the DNA of any
two humans is 99.9 percent similar in content and identity.

This discovery of the extent of genetic variation, by Howard Hughes
Medical Institute (HHMI) international research scholar Stephen W.
Scherer, and colleagues, is expected to change the way researchers
think about genetic diseases and human evolution.

To get a better picture of exactly how important this type of
variation is for human evolution and disease, Scherer's team
compared DNA from 270 people with Asian, African, or European
ancestry that had been compiled in the HapMap collection and
previously used to map the single nucleotide changes in the human
genome. Scherer's team mapped the number of duplicated or deleted
genes, which they call copy number variations (CNVs). They reported
their findings in the November 23, 2006, issue of the journal
Nature.

obviously, go read it. It blows Dawkin's and hence your theories out of the water.

GEE WILLIKERS.... or however its spelt.... the passion..the research...the effort... so much in this thread.. I think its great !

"MultiCulturalism is Ethnocentrism/racism in disquise" seems to sum up MC quite well.

As Banjo said: "Identity politicians like you, Andrew, are in my opinion the most ethnocentric people of them all"

To be honest, up till now I've not considered this particular angle.

But when you think about it... the desire NOT to assimilate or integrate or to embrace (by absoprtion AND by contribution) with Australian Culture by people on the basis of race or culture are in fact the very evidence and source of Xenophobia and Racism of which Ranier,C.J. and gang :) constantly rant against.

There can be no other explanation than the ethnocentric view, 'ours is better, so why would we want yours' ? Am I wrong here ?

This is not to say 'Australian' culture is anything other than 'different'. But its different in a way which by virtue of good manners deserves to be respected and for the sake of national harmony embraced.

Having said that, there are many aspects of CURRENT Aussie culture which should in my view be CHANGED, but we can all work together on this.

RESPECT and POLITENESS yes..lets return to the good old FIFTIES (in one thing at least) 16 yr old Johnny says "Excuse me Mr Smith, (neighbour)my dad would like to borrow your shovel, would that be alright"?

Boy to male teacher "Sir, may I leave the room" ?

et etc....

Respect for elders is something we have lost. LETS GET IT BACK.
(Interest disclosure statement...."I'm getting old" :)

Keep up the great work all yoos.

P J Morgan,
Are you some sort of politically correct nut or just plain stupid.

Multi means many. Race means, a group of people with common ancestory. So the meaning of multi-racial is plain to everyone, or should be. Life is too short to suffer idiots.

So that this post is not wasted on a bloody fool, I pass on some GOOD NEWS. Night before last on TV news. Some muslim and non muslim adults are organizing for some young muslim males to join Surf Life Saving Clubs and also joining Rural Fire Servic Brigades.

This is to be applauded as nothing but good can come from this and best wishes to those organizing and participating. Both are great community groups. I am not aware of what happens in other countries but here there are many excellant sporting, service and other groups,and a niche for everyone to contribute to our society.

Best of luck to all concerned. This is integration making inroads.

Australia is a multicultural nation. If you disagree with this assertion or want a society that is monocultural or one that has the power to impose the dominant (or subservient) culture's fundamental mores onto others - then you have identified a major cultural difference (given that multiculturalism is a basis of Australian culture)and thus have once again reaffirmed our multiculturalism.

Moreover, the posts above indicate that a lot would never agree to, among other things, monoculturalism or the cultural mores of certain others - so once again we remain multicultural.

Cultural exchange can be healthy for society. If you doubt this, just go to any monocultural place and point out some wrong-headed idea. Monocultural societies tend to maintain their homogeneity with fascistic methods or through information control. That is because no matter how hard rulers stomp- difference will always arise. I love and embrace multiculturalism - it is Australian to the core. I find it ironic that settled Australians expect immigrants to accept our ways and yet are adopting monocultural ideas that immigrants are often fleeing from.

Multiculturalism has at its core "life choices". These need not be directly ethnic based, religious based, politically based or related to popular orthodoxies. For instance: A dedicated tennis player makes different life choices to a bass guitarist in an punk band. The tennis player dressed in pretty white uniform will wonder around his local sports store without any questions; the punk will be viewed with suspicion and stopped at the door for a bag check. The prejudice experienced by the punk is wrong but at least he is helping to discredit stereotypes. In Australia we can stir up prejudiced straights (larrikin behaviour) and that is a beauty of multiculturalism.

In some monocultural countries the tennis guy and the punk would both be arrested because women aren't allowed to play tennis and tattoos and punk hairdo's are against their God’s monocultural idea – so you are offending God (not the local Islamic/Christian behaviour management crew) . In Australia we can freely make these life choices - we can be individuals - multiculturalism is good.

Ronnie Peters: "Australia is a multicultural nation. If you disagree with this assertion or want a society that is monocultural or one that has the power to impose the dominant (or subservient) culture's fundamental mores onto others - then you have identified a major cultural difference (given that multiculturalism is a basis of Australian culture)and thus have once again reaffirmed our multiculturalism."

Multiculturalism is a basis of Australian culture? That's strange because I always assumed that Australian culture was predominantly influenced by its British origins. In fact, your statement is downright contradictory. If multiculturalism is a reality, then there is no such thing as "Australian culture". Rather, we are simply "the colony of every nation on earth" as well-known professor Geoffrey Blainey put it.

Despite their trendy phrases and utopian razzmatazz, multiculturalists fail to comprehend that a level of homogeneity and integration is necessary in order for a society to be functional and harmonious. While a society does have an absorption capacity for immigrants from other cultures, the huge influx of people from diverse cultural backgrounds, in combination with multiculturalism, is forcing Australia down the path of cultural and ethnic segregation. As the more rabid multiculturalists will happily admit, multiculturalism is a disincentive to integration as it explicitly fosters division between ethnic and cultural groups, between "old" and "new" Australians. Migrants are encouraged to cling to their old cultures and nationalism, thereby bringing many of the problems and prejudices attached to their old homeland with them.

Let us hope that common sense prevails and that Australian policymakers follow the lead of the beleaguered Dutch in repudiating multiculturalism before this divisive policy can cause any further damage.

Banjo, With that post you still wonder why people here don't take you seriously and don't want to engage with your stupid ideas.

Why? Its because we've been there done that too many times before. You're a social and cultural dinasaur roaming around trying to find people who will keep you comfortable with the ridiculous theories about race and racism.

You can rabbit on to me all you like. You've got nothing to offer and to be quite frank this response to you is more than a generous offering of my time and patience.

I always find it amazing that those who are intellectually challenged never think they are. Grow up Banjo, theres a world out there you know nothing about.

Peace.

Ronnie Peters

You are talking about individuality. The right to dress in an individual way or to adopt a certain lifestyle. That is not the crux of the problem with multiculturalism. What causes ethnic cleansing and wars is separation of bloodlines. (tribalism).

The wearing of the Muslim robes is seen and rightly so as a symbol of tribal segregation by the muslims. It actively prevents them from being at one with Australian society because it acts as a barrier to muslim women being approached by men who arent muslim and so they have little hope of ever being anything but a muslim tribe whos first loyalty will always be to their tribe and not the rest of Australia.

Brain Drain,

I think a lot of the very stupid believe it is complex,( including academics) when in fact it is very simple. That’s because they have got their heads stuck up in the intellectual eather somewhere where they use scientific ideaology to justify their utopian views of the world. As an example of this I remember a few years back scientists saying that the leaves of trees don’t absorb water to survive. I thought at the time, what rubbish! why would they not be capable of using every means they have to survive in dry times? Recently they made a statement saying that their research now tells them that leaves do aabsorb moisture.

Albert Enstein was kicked out of the hallowed halls of high learning for daring to disagree with the accepted ideas of some of the professors.

Academics invented the phrase ethnic cleansing because it would offend their academic sensibilities to mention the word tribe. Ethnic cleansing is territorial tribal massacre.
Tribes don’t exist up in the intellectual eather , they are too superior and intellectual to be tribal that’s only for lowly natives running around in jungles with spears.

The river of life runs along at the biological level not up in the academic mystical towers

Sharkfin: No your assertions are wrong. I am talking about multiculturalism - one's and others’cultures.

A punks’ culture is different to a health-nut tennis player. They have sufficient differences in the way they live and life choices to be regarded as having a different culture. You have been making ethnicity the marker for difference rather than true difference. True punks’ culture is probably more different then a lot of immigrants’ culture.

Oligarch: Among others, British culture, Indigenous culture, Irish culture, German culture - all these bring their own culture to the mix. They are many and thus must help comprise a multicultural society.

It is offensive that you disregard the other cultures that have and do contribute to this country's greatness. Your assertion that British culture is dominant doesn't negate the others. There is no contradiction in my statement.

We have a fundamental difference in belief in regard to whether or not Australia should be multicultural or monocultural like Islam. I embrace multiculturalism - you reject it. That goes beyond individualism. We are not just arguing over different but fundamentally opposing cultures. We hold different positions on cultural foundations. Thus we are multicultural.

Also I hold that multiculturalism is a culture in itself – I can’t see how it can be otherwise. A multiculturalist plus a monoculturalist is more than one - hence multicultural. Or are you saying that monoculturalists aren’t British and thus don’t count?

You accuse me of being contradictory whilst complaining that you don’t want Australia to continue to be multicultural but at the same time asserting that one culture dominates Australia. A true contradiction.

You are confusing culture with law. Multiculturalism must respect the established law of this nation. How could it legally not?

I share the concern that when introducing other cultures such as Islam we multiculturalism advocates must not allow cultural mores of those cultures to override our own established fair and just laws. I also say hold firm to our right to individual culture and support our right to choose an other culture. I love the way multiculturalism enables itself and the individual.

CJ,
I see where you were going with your comment to Banjo but you might like to say something less open to misunderstanding to explain your problem with (one of) Banjo's posts.

Banjo,
maybe I missed something seen by others in your posts, but to my mind you are a level-headed, clear-thinking non-racist. I hope I am not wrong in thinking so.

Rainier,
I believe you stand on my side of the 'line-drawn-in-the-sand' here and are fervently anti-racist. I have to say though, that you occasionally misread posts and blame people for comments they made to others than yourself as being made against you personally, please go back and read some posts carefully and if possible, without believing people like Banjo are opposed to you. Thanks for your posts exposing the race myth.

Obviously,
(Oh to be young again)... Did the book you have read and rely (seemingly exclusively) upon have anything to say that the most 'obvious difference' between you and your OWN SISTER is the abscence of a 'Y' chromosome - meaning you have 953 DIFFERENT genes between you and your 'identically' genetic, same 'race', sister (assuming you share the same parents and your mother was faithful and neither of you are genetic mutants (virtually impossible if the latest research is proven to be correct - DNA replication of 3,000,000,000 base amino acid pairs in every single cell of humans is unlikely to ever be completed PERFECTLY.

If you can completely miss something that bleedin OBVIOUS you have NO credibility in the rest of your well constructed but ludicrously simplistic and false arguement. Q.ED : )

You have a fairly decent brain, it seems - try opening it just a little more than you have so far. That is not to say that you MAY have already opened it more than your past might have prevented it from being. Keep on learning and not falling for 'reasonable sounding' prejudice and hatred.

(cont.)

from before..

Anyone of you lot see Quantum on ABC last night? Mice and men share a common ancestor - 125 million years old, it is now able to be shown. That is why we share so many similar genes with mice (and chimps). Species evolve from the same source to become unique - So do thoughts. Finding a common ancestor is the key to both. The differences in species are able to be genetically identified Uniquely.

Humans are ALL the SAME species. Homo Sapiens. Race cannot be uniquely identified genetically in all cases. You cannot prove a human's race by an individual's genetic code

Cultural differences (eg. language) can result from isolated interbreeding groups forming common atrophy of some muscles; that does not make a racial difference. Take a Japanese or Vietnamese baby at birth and bring them to Australia and you cannot tell their voice apart from an Aussie once they reach maturity if they 'learned' only English. Another Obvious mistake! I grow tired of pointing them all out.

Oh thou blind Steve madden….
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/
“Researchers conducted the study using the 270 DNA samples and health information that had been collected for the Haplotype Map. That map, completed last fall, was the first catalogue of common genetic differences -- SNiPs -- between four major ethnic groups, the Han Chinese, the Japanese, U.S. citizens of European descent and the Yoruba tribe of Nigeria.”
Genes: The essential units of heredity. Each gene encodes a recipe to make a protein and proteins make the stuff that help to make us human -- lips, liver, the frontal lobes of our brains.
“The Haplotype Map, like the 2000 Human Genome Map, suggested there were few differences between these groups of people, with only rare examples of mutations that appeared only in one population.”
“The new work suggests the differences could be more pronounced, largely because researchers had access to new technology that changed the vantage point of the genome.”
Ill repeat it again for you Steve listen this is what this new information says……
“The Haplotype Map, like the 2000 Human Genome Map, suggested there were few differences between these groups of people, with only rare examples of mutations that appeared only in one population.”“The new work suggests the differences could be more pronounced, largely because researchers had access to new technology that changed the vantage point of the genome.”
Your theory “Steve madden is right, Richard dawkins is wrong” made me laugh..
The mere fact that we were 99.9% related, is now closer to 99.5% related, completely verified what I was saying because now as the statements above suggest from (globeandmail) there is now more obvious difference between races! It has verified what I was repeating from dawkins!
Simply Steve, as much as you don’t wish this, you are more closely related to me then to a Guatemalan Pigmy ok, Because our common European ancestor is far closer to that of your common ancestor with a Guatemalan Pigmy

Braindrain, I'm anti racist out of neccesity, not because its politically fashionable and so I was on that side of the sand line you speak of when i was born and people like me have historically made that mark in the sand.

That said, the basic and underlying logic and subtext of all Banjo's statements are quintesentially benign but racist. I call it like I see it. I

f he's not refering to me directly, he's certainly making assumptions about people just like me.

And as far as I know most of you are white men,taking about racism in isolation from those it most affects - so I'm just taking it up for the brothers and sisters who are not here to defend themselves.

Sorry, its a black thang, if you get my drift.

This doesn't mean I don't appreciate your posts, I do, its just that I'm used to frying these fish solo. Its what i do, - and no holds barred. From long experience its the only way to do it.

Cheers

obviously

Go and read the full article, not abstracts found in newspapers.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7118/full/nature05329.html

Yes I do have a degree in genetics and have worked for the Research School of Biological Sciences (Genetics Dept) ANU.

Let me know what you don't understand. The evidence does not support your race theories. :)

Ah what an array of pent up emotion and drivel, a venerable bitch slapping contest of irrelevance.

The only reason this post caught my eye was it had crancked (too apt a word) 160 responses already.

All to decry or defend the holy of holies, that last bastion of the impotent, “multiculturalism”.

Lets get it straight, multiculturalism, is merely a fad which will be eroded, in time, by the natural processes of assimilation.

Migrants, when they arrive from overseas bring skills and traditions with them. Those skills are used to sustain themselves physically whilst the traditions sustain them spiritually.

The importance of “Old World traditions” are less significant to the children of migrants because the children are developing as Australians and should be mixing with other children, not simply the ghetto folk of their parents race.

Get to third generation offspring and usually the only thing which distinguishes the grandchild of an immigrant from other “Australians” is the family name.

So boom and bluster, tell us how much better off we are in a multicultural society but remember this, the right to individual expression and religion are not universally available.

Many immigrants have escaped religious, political and ethnic persecution, which were in some cases, the accepted “cultural practices” in their historic homeland, before they arrived here, seeking acceptance by this alien land with its alien people and alien ways. Polgroms in Russia have been going on since before Australia was discovered by Europeans. Even the Pilgrim Fathers were escaping religious persecution when they hit the Shores of the New World, 200 years before Cook discovered this piece of dirt.

To fit with this “Australian Culture” requires the immigrant to surrender, over time, their old world traditions.

I can speak with some experience in this matter, I was 33 when I migrated to Australia. I still get called names but mostly by friends and as you can imagine, give back as well as I get.

The duty is on me and every other immigrant to work toward our individual assimilation in Australia, not the other way around.

Banjo: "Fact 1. Australia is a multi-racial society. (undisputed)"

Banjo: "Are you some sort of politically correct nut or just plain stupid."

No, I don't think I'm a "politically correct nut", "plain stupid", or a "bloody idiot". I'm just better educated and have better manners than you.

You claim that it is "undisputed" that Australia is a "multi-racial society". This is plainly false, even within the context of this forum. Other correspondents have pointed out that the notion of 'race' when applied to humans is practically meaningless in biological and anthropological terms.

It does, however, retain some salience to those who wish to categorise the social world on the basis of the correlations they see between culture and phenotype. People who still subscribe to this anachronistic ideology are by definition "racist", because that is what the word means.

Put simply: "race" is an outmoded concept in anthropological terms, but it exists as a social category in the belief systems of racists.

Actually, if we can ignore Col Rouge's gratuitous vitriol, I find myself agreeing with much of the substance of his post above - except that I draw a diametrically opposite conclusion from his argument. Yes, immigrants invariably integrate (rather than assimilate) over a few generations, but in so doing they inevitably change Australian society and culture in significant ways.

That is why Australia is inescapably a "multicultural" society, regardless of government policies or the xenophobic sentiments of a large minority of the electorate.

Sharkfin,

"Ethnic cleansing" is a euphemism coined by a journalist, borrowing from a politician. At its root is nationalist politics and power. Unlike 'eather' or 'ideaology', the phrase is an accepted part of the vocabulary.

A little googling turned up the following. I've no reason to doubt its veracity.

"… the term didn't enter the English language until the Balkan wars of the 1990s. The earliest citation of a phrase like it is from the New York Times, July 1982:

"The nationalists have a two-point platform, according to Becir Hoti, an executive secretary of the Communist Party of Kosovo, first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the merger with Albania to form a greater Albania."

The precise phrase appears first in the Washington Post, August 1991:

"The Croatian political and military leadership issued a statement Wednesday declaring that Serbia's 'aim is obviously the ethnic cleansing of the critical areas that are to be annexed"

Regards scientific study of whether leaves absorb water, what on earth is your beef? That the question was asked, or that science has once again demonstrated its utility in its proposition-theory-proof-disproof process? Seems to me it worked pretty well in this case. Have you been expelled from class, Sharkfin? Einstein was indeed kicked out for disagreeing with his teachers. And Mick Jagger was told repeatedly by his teachers he’d never amount to anything. The point being….what?

If you really want a sympathetic, anti-intellectual audience, go here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forums

Braindrain,
Thank you for the compiments. Only others can judge the first two of your findings, however you are correct in that I am a non-racist. No big deal, I have yet to see any proof that any 'race' is better than any other. I have said, at least twice on OLO, that a persons ethnicity is of no interest to me.

C J Morgan,
While DNA may well show there is little difference between people of differing ethnic backgrounds, there is physical differences of people who's ancestory came from different parts of the world. Each group of people is commonly termed a 'race'.

You claim the term is outdated but there is as yet no replacement term so the word 'race' is still very much in common use.

When I say multi-racial everyone knows it means many differing groups of people.

The only reason you raised the issue of word meaning is so you could demonstrate, to yourself, that you have superior knowledge to that of the common person. For my money that is stupidity.

Rainier,
If you can make assumptions about me which are false and totally incorrect, it is reasonable that I put forward my thoughts of you.

Firstly, your underlying premise is that all 'whiteys' are racist.

Then you have a gigantic chitp on your shoulder, which makes you make those snide remarks on OLO occasionly and you hate any discussion against multiculturalism and promoting integration because it is contrary to your agenda. This agenda is to promote self-governance for aboriginal people.

Sorry to tell you this but integration will win out.

Obviously,

1/ what has DIVERSITY given you?

A more wired, more creative brain. I grew up in a suburb like the one you describe and was bored witless until some Chinese and Koreans moved in. I was fascinated by their different values and approaches to life, and every culture I have encountered since has increased my range of understanding, my recognition of the resources and opportunities that surround me, and taught me about adapting. I didn't manage to get overseas until I was 28 so I couldn't have got that from a holiday. And how many years would it take me to visit all the cultures that I can find right here? Having travelled and worked overseas, I've found that it doesn't sink in until you live and work beside people.

A better diet.

I don't have to leave the country to find a girlfriend ("Aussie" women and I just can't hold it together). Mind you, if this was a monoculture I wouldn't be here anyway.

A better sense of who I am. I can borrow different forms of expression and keep the ones that suit.

Fun.

2/ what would INCREASED DIVERSITY give you, that you haven’t already gotten?
Note- The answers to questions 1 & 2, can only be things that you can not get from a holiday

More of 1. I could really have used some Africans and Latinos while I was growing up. I might have realised before the age of 30 that I wanted to play the drums and dance the tango. Would have given me a headstart when I went to work in the Caribbean, too.

Beyond that I don't know - how can I know what a culture can offer me if I've never experienced it?

cont...

...cont

3/ And Is it worth the obvious negatives, and increasing extreme risks? i.e (crime, ethnic gangs, race riots, terrorism...).

I don't see any "obvious" negatives (although I forsee some social tension when local women find out that black men tend to have larger penises). We can make it negative by marginalising immigrants and increasing the probability that they will resort to theft to sustain themselves, or terrorism to obtain justice. If we are threatened by terrorists from country A, I would argue that we are much better equipped to protect ourselves if we have locals who understand A's thinking, culture, and language. Hell, if we listened to them we might even figure out how not to create terrorists in the first place.

I always liked the story of the US military using the Navajo Indians' language to communicate during the Pacific War. The (monocultural) Japanese never managed to crack the "code".

I would agree that some constructive "management" of Muslim issues wouldn't go astray at this point, but I think a lot of this will die down when we have more 2nd & 3rd generation Muslims, who will have greater capacity to integrate the differences in world view. Australia is more of a shock to a Muslim immigrant than they are to us.

The lesson from ecology is that if it is allowed to flourish, diversity = resilience, diversity = maximum utilisation of resources, diversity = minimum conflict. If we can't find a way to, say, convert Aboriginals' superior spatial abilities into better architecture, we've failed to take an opportunity to make our lives better.

Haven't been to LA, been to Jo'burg, and my perception was that the people causing most of the trouble were the Afrikaaners trying to deprive the majority of the population of country's wealth.

Curiosity is stronger than fear. Your African neighbours are an opportunity for you to make your life richer. If you don't wish to take that opportunity, that's your choice. I would ask you not to take that opportunity away from the rest of us

Banjo, I have made a clear distinction between whiteness and white people. You choose to ignore any theory i put forward in favour of your own ignorant myths.

Chip on my shoulder? Ha! RACISM ISN'T MY PROBLEM ITS YOURS! YOUR SHOULDER, YOUR CHIP, OWN IT, UNDERSTAND IT, BUT don't confuse your own lack of self esteem with my confidence. While you're at it try growing a brain.

"although I forsee some social tension when local women find out that black men tend to have larger penises"-moblet, you think so hah, but race is but mere fictious, they cannot possbly have larger penises any more that i can have a larger brain, you racist man!

Rainier,
I understand the 'underlying logic' you see. I'm antibigot (can't really say anti-racist 'cos I've painted myself into a corner by denouncing that 'race', other than the Human Race, exists!) by Nature, not exactly by choice.

My Father was one of the most bigoted man i ever knew. He believed that nothing was as good as the particular culture he came from before emigrating to Aus when I was a child, and he would denigrate almost everything Australian (Mainly because of the ignorance of young Aussie males he taught as Apprentices, constantly poking 'racial' type abuse at him. He learned through this to hate Australians and died of Cancer with the desire still strong to go back 'home'. Even after 30 years here.) I fight my own battles but it does help one's spirit to know others are fighting it with you.

I don't believe Banjo is as bad as you seem to think - but as long as you're sure of your ground and it's not based entirely upon misunderstandings? it's your battle I guess?

We do all have different starting points. Even though we all live in the 'same' Australia.

Everyone,
I think there would be far less antipathy in this thread were it not for the events of 9/11 and two Asian wars resultant from it.

Anti-Muslim hysteria has reached the point in here where some seem to believe Multiculturalism=Pro-Islam (WRONG!)

Islam is a religion practiced in different country's. It is not A culture per se. The vast majority of Muslims do not agree with one another (take the 8 year long Iran/Iraq war) on a great many things even their religion or laws.

And I am NOT Muslim, nor do I hold preference for their beliefs in the slightest. I am anti-bigot, anti-hypocrite (although occasionally capable of lapsing into one) and mostly anti-stupidity.

I believe it to be hypocrisy to say we believe in a tolerant, fair, society for all and then try to prevent a specific 'type' of people from coming into our country to live under our laws.

Onya Brainy.... even though there is a 'drain' you still have some grey matter left old son :)

Err curiosity has the better of me now.... from which country /culture did ur dad come ?

Keep up the good work, your heart is showing through and this is a good thing.

If 9/11 was the reason we are concerned about the impact of Islam, then God help us, because it would mean we are trying to catch the horse after it bolted out the gate. Its also suggestive of knee jerk reaction rather than calculated policy.

Islam is just one of a number of trends that should be monitored and controlled.
cheers all

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say Militant Islam is what we should keep an eye on? Or for that matter any creed which seeks to convert others to their cause, whether by force or coercion?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It matters not which deity inspired them.

Braindrain,

I’m sure you’re father was a good man who simply could not cope with living in this redneck wonderland.
But I think that he did cope and he raised a son who obviously understands this wonderland for the better. My own father lived the same story.

That the were generous in their outlook of imparting knowledge and a different world view to people who would have otherwise not have had that experience must have been totally frustrating to them both.

This is a very pubescent nation compared to many others and the term multicultural merely describes was it is and the values we all know are vital to a multi-cultural society that we will pass on to our children.

The racists here on OLO don’t fear future change as they often continue to argue against.

They fear walking out their front doors and trying to understand where they live now.

They don’t have the social or cultural skills required and are too proud to learn them.

I say let them rot in their xenophobic paranoia indoors. We don’t need them, but they certainly need us.

PS.
Don’t tell Boaz David about your fathers’ background- he thinks non-whiteness is an exotic vulnerability that’s crying out for his Christian missionary/nationalist intervention and advice. He’s still trying to work out why this isn’t his role in life

A lot of interesting views and a thoroughly worthwhile deabate despite some name callimg.

But argue as you wish, Australia does at the moment have many cultures. Each will learn to co-exist in time perhaps we will end up with one culture, only time will tell.

Here and now in my lifetime we have many differences. You can all accept and revel in the variations or sit and winge. I know what I am doing.

Bennie
My point about the leaves was it took them years to realise their first conclusion was inaccurate. Their commonsense should have told them immediately that the finding was wrong.

Like the two professors they have paid for two years to figure out why second generation muslims are attacking London. I can tell them that in two minutes. The Muslim males first alliegiance is to their bloodline, their tribe, and we are at war with their tribe. It was always going to happen in a couple of generations anyway,war or no war if the Muslims get the numbers to demand a separate state. That is if they dont assimilate through intermarriage.
If they do assimilate it wont happen.

I may be wrong about the origins of the term ethnic cleansing but I'm not wrong about the fact that it leaves out one important part of the equation and so leads to a belief that wars are about intolerance of ethnic groups. Instead of the term ethnic cleansing
It should be called by a more accurate name. Tribal, territorial warfare. The keyword being territorial. These massacres arent so much about intolerance as they are about territorial control.

C.J. Morgan

"The notion of race when applied to humans is practically meaningless".

Not to humans it isnt. Why do black Americans still refer to themsleves as African Americans. Why do humans refer to their race first and then their country. Obviously what race they are matters very much to people.

If my genetic relationship to my children and my mother and father means nothing then I might as well treat them as aquaintances and go and live with strangers.
Genetic relationships do matter.
I am not trying to down The Muslims or any other races my point in writing these posts is to try and emphasise the importance of intergration not just at the cultural level but at the biological level. I think the Arabs are a very attractive noble people but my aim is to save this country from any kind of bloodshed and tribal war down the track by pointing out to all the ethnic groups here that if you think you can go down the path of segregated tribalism and not have it lead to some kind of struggle for territorial and resources control then you are misreading the cause of all the violence and conflicts happening in todays world.
As Dr. Phil says you cant change what you dont acknowledge.

We need to face problems that may lead to the bloody uprisings we see in other countries instead of denying they exist and try to deal with the causes before it happens here.

Rainier,
That was pretty much spot on. : ) My Dad was also the victim of Nostalgia and a long marriage (no way Mum would leave her garden here and he couldn't live happily without her) Nostalgia affects us all as do poor memories of negatives in our past making many of us think things were better then than they are now, partly because the negative of now is so much clearer and is weighted more to us.

As for the xenophobes, we have a responsibility to acknowledge what they fear, even if we do not share that fear, and to help them overcome it and to reduce the reason's for it within our society.

Education and freedom from poverty/injustice would be a start.

Think we can leave that to the likes of Howard, Vanstone, Downer, Costello, Beazely, or (in days gone by) Hawke and Keating?

BOAZ _D

It never hurts to Ask, and since you asked politely and since it has no doubt been driving benjamin and others crazy and because i am not afraid to say it...

My Family and I (formerly, before taking citizenship and 35 years of growing up) are POMMIE BAST@RDS! : )

... and i am as white or whiter than anyone else here. I am no group supremacist however, believing there to be good and bad in everyone, just not always evenly spread.

... and if you can't drain your brain of outdated rubbish you do not have a truly Open Mind.

Peace All.

Can those espousing "integration" please let me know what they mean?

Does it mean I should follow Collingwood or South Sydney?

Does it mean an annual pilgramage to Harry's Cafe De Wheels?

Should I drink VB or Chardonnay?

Just what should I integrate into?

Come on, let me know.

Sharkfin,

Racial consciousness and identification by race are often named as "problems" rather than as the historical racialised effects of social and economic inequality.

Afro Americans identify with the history of slavery as well as the genetically diverse ‘Africa’ they come from. Their identification as AA’s is not based on the monolithic race category you infer.

Within popular liberal discourse it might feel virtuous to declare that race is conceptually flawed and should be dismissed. But it continues to inform how people of colour are seen and not heard.

While we may now have formal equality with other 'Australians' the informal inequality is the reality we know all too well. Again our consciousness as Aboriginal is not the problem; it is the institutionalised means by which we came to be known as
Aborigines that is the problem. Because posters here don’t know about this history they do not understand why racism is their problem, not ours.

Braindrain, I married a "pom', and we share similar stories of being ostracised by ‘true blue Aussies’. They gave up their ‘true ethnicity’ to become Australian - poor things

It seems to me that many are posting on multi-ethnicity not mutli-culture. Australia is populated by peoples of ethnic diversity yet share a (now) similar culture. All the cultural influences have been modified to create todays Australia. And while some aspects of the original culture of individual ethnic people remain they would not in whole be recognized in their origional country as such. Todays Australian culture derives from the influences of it's ethnic diversity. Multiculturalist use "culture" as an identifier to affect social fragmentation and to promote governance by ethnic division. It pits one ethnic group against the other and ethnic relations are held hostage rather than living full lives as an integrated whole. Anyone who supports multiculturalism is either ignorant of the true nature of their thinking or are cultural marxist. Integration is incorporation as equals into society, culture and ethnicity are still respected but no longer social identifiers as they are with multiculturalism.
Multiculturalist are responsible for all the social strife in Australia and have retarded real equality for society. Thanks to our multicultural educators we have blind acceptance of the often repeated lie rather than discriminate thinking. This countries leadership has to balance the "needs" of every "culture" rather than focusing on what is proper governance for Australia for Australians.

Firstly, congratulations to aqvarivs for such a rational and perspicacious post. It is indeed unfortunate that this discussion has degenerated into pseudo-scientific piffling about race. I guess it was only a matter of time before the insipid apostles of multiculturalism resorted to labelling their opponents "racist".

Ronnie Peters said: "Among others, British culture, Indigenous culture, Irish culture, German culture - all these bring their own culture to the mix. They are many and thus must help comprise a multicultural society.

It is offensive that you disregard the other cultures that have and do contribute to this country's greatness. Your assertion that British culture is dominant doesn't negate the others. There is no contradiction in my statement."

Please, there is no need to feign offence. I'm not disregarding other cultural contributions. Rather, I am being forced to state the blatantly obvious, and that happens to be that mainstream Australian culture primarily reflects its Anglo-Celtic origins. By the way, I'm not some hardcore Anglophile. In fact, I'm a second generation German-Australian. My grandfather served in the Luftwaffe during WWII. My great-grandfather died as a result of the Allied firebombing of Dresden. However, I'm Australian above all else, and if that means recognizing and adopting Australia's mainly British-derived culture, so be it. It's the "brutal bargain" that my father and his family made when they became Australian.

Elements of migrant cultures should by all means be added to the mix. However, the current multiculturalist regime is virtually encouraging the segregation of migrant cultures from mainstream society, thus facilitating greater social fragmentation. This "us" and "them" mentality clearly does not add to Australian society.

As this tiresome thread continues I am more interested in its capactiy to reach the double ton - or will it falter like Ponting at 196?

Only time will tell

BENNIE SAID

"Wouldn't it be more accurate to say Militant Islam is what we should keep an eye on?"

In terms of 'accuracy' yes. But in terms of where the militants come from, no. We need a broad brush in this regard.
It is abundantly self evident that :

"No Muslims, No radicals."

On the other end of the spectrum, "Lots of Muslims, many radicals."

The same can in a way be said of Buddhists. The difference is, a 'radical' or passionate Buddhist has no scriptural or historical foundation which would shape him as a suicide bomber or to become part of a militant group. The worst we are likely to see is his self emolation outside some government office. Scary yes, life threatening (for us)...no.

Failure to ACT in a planned, responsible (and 'no fear') manner regarding
-immigration and resettlement issues.
-Assimilation/integration.

...will (not 'might') utlimately result in the following knee jerk extremist actions from the "White supremacists".

This type of reaction can only be understood historically and socially in the same way "anti semitism" must be.. i.e. without 'Semitism' or the perceived unfair advancement of Semitic interests and power, there will be no 'anti' of that.

From the Herald Sun today:

<In what Le Parisien newspaper called “le cocktail” of racism, anti-semitism and human beastliness, about 100 right-wing extremist fans of PSG, furious after their club lost 4-2 to Tel Aviv, tried to lynch a black plainclothes police officer who was protecting a French Jewish fan of the Israeli team.
Witnesses, including a journalist from Express magazine, heard the mob shouting “Filthy Jew”, “Dirty nigger” and screaming death threats. Other attackers made Nazi salutes and yelled “Blue, white, red - France for the French” and “(Jean-Marie) Le Pen for President”>

SUMMARY/CONCLUSION.
Active Social planning for social harmony and balance is needed.

"Multiculturalist are responsible for all the social strife in Australia and have retarded real equality for society"

If Aqvarivs and Oligarch see that comment as rational and perspicacious then i think we have a new definition of the word 'rational'.

The Prime Minister's refusal to say that he, as our leader, was sorry for the 200 years of non-recognition of Aboriginal rights since the 1788 First Fleet's declaration of 'terra nullius' and thus make a genuine attempt at healing a deep and socially divisive wound of more than 2 centuries making, is but the more recent example of how 'Monoculture' is responsible for many of the social ills in a nation that permits entry as citizens of people from all world culture's while trying to uphold one as being of Prime Value through the Australian Constitutional Monarchical system of government we enjoy and the long-held tradition of closely following Mother England.

'Multiculturalism' (still hate that word, not least for it's utter inaccuracy in defining Aus) may have been introduced in the 70's by Labor as a way to help steer our Nation away from the Ties of Empire while we learned to stand on our own two feet more, and to try and give us a more unique identity that would allow us better trade with our asian and world neighbours, but many today still can only see it as a threat, to their 'Status Quo' as holders of some form of power.

As this discussion shows it is able to be used by everyone to justify their own selfish bias and theories while simultaneously having virtually no real validity in Australia.

We aren't 'Multicultural'. We share One Culture, the Australian Culture, with all it's history and it's social cohesion and division. We are a nation of individuals who tend to form groups of like-minded people, clubs, sports, states, religions and 'races' all united under a love of the Land we call our 'own'.

(cont.)

Oligarch says: “Please there is no need to feign offence.” I said: ” It is offensive.” I didn’t say how it affected me. I hold that “It is offensive” for you to disregard others’ cultures that make up Australian history. You just have to see the Indigenous’ side of things to see the offence your British only position may cause. Your assumption that I “feigned “ is wrong . You’re wrong to present your opinion as my thinking.

You said: …. I always assumed that Australian culture was predominantly influenced by its British origins. In fact, your statement is downright contradictory. If multiculturalism is a reality, then there is no such thing as "Australian culture". Rather, we are simply "the colony of every nation on earth" as well-known professor Geoffrey Blainey put it.”

Your assumption : disregards the other cultures including “Australian culture” which, I think, among other things - because we have “people of every nation on earth” - has developed into, and must be, a multicultural society. That is blatantly obvious.

Aqvarivas. Where is your evidence that multiculturalists use culture to “affect social fragmentation”? What are talking about? Some conspiracy nonsense? And the idea that multiculturalists are promoting “governance by ethnic division” doesn’t make sense. I think multiculturalism is about promoting social cohesion. I haven’t seen any evidence or logical penetrating argument to suggest otherwise.

I support multiculturalism and your supposed insight into the “true nature” of multiculturalists’ thinking is wrong. You don’t actually dispute multiculturalist’s position; you just rely on unsubstantiated nonsense. I think multiculturalists are the opposite of “cultural marxists” if by that you mean someone who thinks that through dialectical processes we will eventually all be the same and somehow equal – if so, I think, it is multiculturalism that will ensure that Australians don’t become a great mass of like-minded people (an integrated whole) void of cultural difference and individuality and living under the illusion that they are free. Your thinking is more marxist than you think.

People who want to enjoy their culture are not responsible for all the strife in Australia. continued

Seems to me militants come from everywhere, regardless of the dominant religion, though religion sure seems to inspire it more than, say, who won the football. (Then again, football IS religion).

Difficult to see DB how we might exercise active social planning without sacrificing individual choice. Totalitarianism does work, but at what cost?

A monk was once asked what he would do if was found a tenet of buddhism was wrong. "Buddhism would have to change" was the simple answer. Oh, if only other religions were so simple...

I think it is the people who want to force their monoculture onto people. You just have to scan the net to see all the groups who regard their culture and that ideology, religion etc that informs it as the only way and get into negative politicking against different others.

Aqvarivs says: “Thanks to our multicultural educators we have blind acceptance of the often repeated lie rather than discriminate thinking.” What “lie” are you talking about ? How can readers make sense and consider unless you say who has lied and what the lie is. Discriminate thinking is a necessity in a multicultural society: where as, in a monoculture it is all thought out for you.

I’ll be voting for a candidate who has the sense and energy to balance the needs of every culture because this develops social cohesion. We must not deny the right of people to live authentically and choose their culture. I think multiculturalism is far better than Aqvarivs ‘ Marxist – like monoculture.

Aqvaravs, Nothing wrong with “them and us” living together. Difference is good and it cannot realistically be other than multicultural unless fascism makes a comeback.

You say: “ It (multiculturalism) pits one ethnic group against the other..” No it doesn’t - the monoculturalists do that - multiculturalism recognises and respects the various aspects of others’ cultures which in turn helps with social cohesion.

You say: “Integration is incorporation as equals into society, culture and ethnicity are still respected but no longer social identifiers as they are with multiculturalism.” The first part is marxist and the second clause is another clear contradiction. If you really respect culture and ethnicity , why would disregard these “identifiers”? In Australian culture which is multicultural – most seem proud of their ethnicity and culture. It is what makes us Aussie. Why hide it away? All sorts of things identify one with a culture and often people go out of their way to mark themselves off from others. It is this openness that indicates respect for the other – not forced subservience to an other’s ideal.

Don’t get me wrong, I like diversity, but what I’m going to miss one day is natural diversity. When I go to the hot plains of Africa I want to see tall thin black Africans, and when I go to the cold northern continent of Europe I want to see white pale blue eyed people. That’s the natural diversity of life in all its glory, which we’ll all miss very much one day.

Tell me who wants to go to Africa and see Asians with sandals? Europeans with backpacks? That’s almost sad. When you go to Germany I’m guessing a lot of you would like to see mosques with Africans and Arabs, more & more Chinese shops(&more), and a little bit of German culture(but who would go their now, we have a Germania club in my own diverse country!)

No need for European holidays anymore, may I alter my environment once more, and never again shall I leave my homeland. Bring Germany to me, I don’t want a truly unique and rare gift of natures and humanity’s own natural beautiful diversity.
May we be the last generation to leave our shores and have that great experience upon foreign soil of a people and a culture far removed from our own, in such unique and amazing ways.
Bring the Chinese food and the Chinese to me and my un-humbled contempt as the ruler of my own environment, not needing that great journey to Hong Kong as I can have a truly great experience in china-town.
Nature’s natural diversity is in no way better then my own human capability of unstably constructing diversity!
May I one day walk in a Japanese garden situated 25mins away and be all inspired by its apparent cheapness, as if to walk through a zoo and look at a giraffe and think to myself “yep this is Africa.” Youse's(pro mc's)are flushing the greatest of gifts, down the filthiest of tiolets.

Obviously,

without MC there would be no reason to visit chinatown. You'd get chinglish food served with a knife & fork.

ronnie peters
Your still clinging to your original mischaracterisation of multiculturalism and not recognizing how society reacts with in its limitations. It shouldn't matter what the Chinese or the Greeks think about the governance of Australia. It should be a matter for Australians. Playing at semantics to advocate political propaganda is social strife. Having the social whole segmented to be represented by ethnicity or "culture" pits one against the other for attention as well to meet the respective "needs" of that "culture(s)". The desire to achieve victim status becomes the highest social value and this leads to the accuser as moral authority. Your multicultural politically correct teachers have failed you.

Aqvarivs and Oligarch,
Good on you both for well thought out and well written posts.

Steve Madden,
Firstly, Integration means incorporation.

I will pass on to you what I would say to an immigrant if he asked me how he could integrate.

'You probably were not told much about our society before you arrived, but seeing you are now here there are a few things you can consider doing to become part of the community.

You should learn English as quickly as you can as it is the official language.

If you are used to giving orders and directions to women shop assistants, receptionists, teachers and nurses,etc. You are advised to speak nicely to them and say please and thank you. Women here are equal to men and you will find that by asking nicely you will get a good response. Try not to be abrupt or dictatorial

If you are in business I suggest you join your local chamber of commerce, as the blokes involved in that can give you lots of advice in relation to business.

If you were previously involved in sport then most likely you can continue that here or take up a new one. There are many sporting clubs, catering for all sorts of sports. Hobbies and pastimes are available.
Any of these activities will get you involved with the wider community

Encourage your kids to take up a weekend sport. Adults are also required to organize, set up or be linesmen,referees and so on.

If your wife likes crafty things you will find a local group she can join and become involved.

There are also local progress associations, political parties and Pand C associations you can become part of.
There are numberous service clubs such as Lions, Rotary and Apex that welcome new members.

What about getting your kids involved with the Surf life Saving Clubs. They start them off as "nippers" and they learn a lot of usefull skills.

Being part of some community organisation seems to in Australian culture and it will give you something to talk to your workmates about.'

Banjo

Thanks for the simplistic drivel, I am sure immigrants do what you suggest every day, I did.

I think your advice should be heeded by all Australians, your inference about how to treat women is a vieled reference to Muslims and this is what this debate is really all about.

Ever read about the rapes and sexual descrimination in Surf Life Saving clubs, sure those clubbies really know how to treat a lady.

As SteveMadden showed, humans of any kind can never fully 'integrate', any more than we can learn to live without war in peace. We should aim for 'mutual respect'.

Banjo,
Useful suggestions. I have the following additional observations: Integration means Inclusion, welcoming new arrivals, not further isolating them.

If you learn English and speak it poorly or with any foreign accent you will open yourself up to ridicule by many Australians, who will then go out of their way to point out your 'failing'. Speaking English correctly and with a more English accent that they possess will mark you out for particular vitriol. Being offended by this will ensure it is ramped up to previously unimaginable levels. You must accept this 'friendly' ribbing in good humour even if some unfamiliar activities are mortal sins to your own culture's mores.

Don't draw attention to your unAustralianness by not drinking quantities of Alcohol at all available opportunities.

Any attempt at proving your 'superiority' to the monoclass of Aussie culture will ensure you're selected as an outcast, unwelcome in society.

Abruptness and dictatorial nature's are the exclusive right of Authority, such as 'local government' and is a rag to a red-blooded Aussie Bull. No-one has the right to tell Aussie's what they can and cannot do, particularly not parking inspectors or 'foreigner's, even ones born here. Any attempt to do so will be met with lip-curling snarls of derision and occasional violence, especially when alcohol is in plentiful supply eg. at BBQ's, the footy or down the pub.

Thanks mainly to multiculturalism and a successful World Cup campaign, Australian's now have a new-won respect for roundball Football (the world's most paticipated sport). Until recently it was almost exclusively for poms, wogs, wops, dagos and a number of smaller ethnic poofta's who like kissing each other on the cheeks if they score.

Don't expect to hear news of any sport in your country of birth on mainstream networks unless Australia is playing them. Footy on the otherhand has the status of a religion in many states of Australia. Knocking this is decidedly UnAustralian.

Actually Braindrain, the 'Ozzie' team was made up practicing MULTICULTURALISTS.

With names like Zeljko Kalac,Ante Covic ,Stan Lazaridis,Tony Popovic ,Marco Bresciano Josip Skoko, Mile Sterjovski, John Aloisi and Mark Viduka its a pretty MULTICULTURAL team.

And there were some Poms (who else) in there as well!

Brain Drain,

Of course all the Ethnic groups love Australia(the land) thats what they come here for the territorial wealth but do they have the same loyalty to the Australian people. Will they stand together as one if we go to war especially if their old country aligns with the other side.

Steve Madden,

What I mean by intregration is intregration of bloodlines. You can do it the love and romance way or you can wait a few generations and have tribal uprisings where the assimilation is bought about by more violent means. The men who commit ethnic cleansing act the same as males across all speices. They kill or drive off the males and mate with the females thus bringing about assimilation by brutal force.

This occurs in all wars even wars faught between different countries.

And it has been done by all races across the globe at different points of history, it would be hard to find any who hadnt done it in fact. That makes non intregration a potential timebomb.

KIWIS HAKA'S AND HYMNS ?

I'm not sure if I have it right, but it seems the Kiwi All Blacks are indulging in a bit of cultural impeerialism in Wales. How ?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/union/rites-and-wrongs/2006/11/27/1164476135607.html

[Richie McCaw, the All Black captain, declined to lead the haka as a protest at the Welsh Rugby Union's decision that Wales should have a right of reply, in the form of a stirring Welsh hymn.]

So.. if you reply with YOUR cultural preparation, we will spit the dummy, take out toys and sulk quietly... no Hakka nerr...

Of course this was in New Zealand right ? WRONG ! it was in CARDIFF WALES for crying out loud.

If this shows nothing else, it shows just how ethno/cultural centric people can be. Normally I have all the time in the world for the Kiwis, and specially the Maories but this ? grrrrrr... its plain infantile.
Maybe the Kiwi's are SCARED of a rousing rendition of '

Arglwydd, arwain trwy’r anialwch,
Fi, bererin gwael ei wedd,
Nad oes ynof nerth na bywyd
Fel yn gorwedd yn y bedd:
Hollalluog
Ydyw’r Un a’m cwyd i’r lan.

or..

Guide me, O thou great Jehovah,
pilgrim through this barren land.
I am weak, but thou art mighty;
hold me with thy powerful hand

198 - concentrate guys - the double ton is well within your grasp - who will it be - Brain Drain perhaps , maybe that young fire brand obviosly or peprhaps an older war hourse like Boaz - its so close I can feel it:

In the mean time

Multiculturalism is part of us now -............................it is all over red rover - no amount of revisionst analysis will unscramble these eggs - so I suggest yet again get used to it - or maybe those who find it uncomfortable should move on - find an anglo mono culture and relocate - or at least a white one and assimilalte; assimilation seems to be dead easy according to some

Braindrain and Rainier,
You blokes are wrong to try and claim it a credit to multiculture for the upsurge in Australian soccer. The various nationalities in the team is a result of our immigration policy.

What multiculturalism is responsible for is a lot of ethnic tension in opposing teams. This was so bad that, under David Hill, there were wholesale club name changes in effort to dampen down the ethnic tension and rivalary. The Croats and the Serbs still cannot have a soccer match without riots, burning c ars ang shots fired at buildings. Integration encourages togetherness and multiculturalism promotes seperatism.

Steve Madden,
Sure encouragement of integration is simple. No one ever said it was complicated. The idea being to get migrants to meet and socialize with others than their own ethnicity. Some migrants do this easily, others don't. Sure the bit about treatment of women is would be used if the migrant was muslim, simply because we are having a problem with the attitude to women by Ababic muslims.

In relation to sexual matters and surf clubs. Yes there have been some instances, but we also read about similar instances frequently relating to football club members.

yes..yes.. YESSSS its 'ME' :) #200

oK...serious now.

1/ THE GREAT HAM SANGER SAGA.... has RETURNED !

but the present incarnation of this cultural demon is not Hume Shire or Darebin, but UK. Also, perhaps due to either good or bad Karma (depending on your relative view of pigs and chickens) it has morphed into a HALAL Christmas CHICKEN. (Forced on the 4 out of 5 caucasian/English children for the sake of the 1 in 5 of 'Asian' origin (code for Pakistani Muslim usually)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/18/nhalal18.xml

I can't wait for the Left to yell "Petty English.. what a lot of fuss about nothing" :) grrrr

2/ SNEEKY... ok.. as Labor used to say "Its Time"..... may I ask something about your own background and ancestry ? Ethnic heritage etc ? You are quite a warrior for 'Multi Culturalism' and I find this rather unusual for one who I have been assuming to be of Anglo background. (I've recently joined Asio, but I'm skillfully disguised. :)

3/ MONO-CULTURE for AUSTRALIA. Sneeky, may I refer you to my thread where I labored the point quite passionately about how I view a future Australia and the ethnic composition/identity of the Aussie of 2morrow ?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=164
You could comment here if you desire.

Banjo, I can't count how many times I've seen brawls between rival footy clubs over the years- but because they were mostly Anglo people- its not counted as 'ethnic tensions'. Makes for great media stories but is it any different from so called true blue Aussies doing the same? According to your warped views it isn't.

As old Hugh Mackay wrote:

Surely it's "Australian" to do whatever Australians do. It's Australian to smuggle drugs in and out of the country. It's Australian to minimise your income tax payments to the point where you're not actually pulling your weight as a taxpayer. It's Australian to cheat if you can get away with it - at work (PriceWaterhouseCoopers reports 47 per cent of companies have suffered some form of corporate crime, mostly committed by employees), on the sporting field (the "professional foul", for instance), or in personal relationships (where, these days, cheating on your partner scarcely counts as cheating at all).

http://www.theage.com.au/news/hugh-mackay/just-who-is-unaustralian/2005/06/19/1119119722702.html

And its particularly Australian to declare you don't like Multiculturalism but then lap up all the benefits that it provide you.

So you should stick your selective/biased observations where the sun don't shine.

Boazo D, i reckon your doctor is having a real giggle playing with your medication. Seriously

Huzzah! all hail Boaz - a cracking drive straight through the covers!

As to your question Boaz ( you others can look away now) born and bred hee Angloceltic mother Franco German father - way back - g parents and gg parents born here.
Metropolitan upbringing - educated by the good nuns and the beastly brothers - professional life in Metro melb until '93 then rural NSW Tas and Vic -

We are closer to being on the same page than you might think

Aqvarivs you are the one who is mischaracterising multiculturalism. For instance: you say: “It shouldn’t matter what the Greeks and Chinese think about he governance of Australia?” If they are Australian citizens, then of course it matters. This is democracy.

You say: “Playing at semantics to advocate political propaganda is social strife”. What? I don’t know what you are on about. Explain to me how one plays at semantics to argue a point. You’re the expert. You are the one applying sinful connations to multiculturalism. It is not a movement it is just an unavoidable situation. We can either make the most of it or go down the historically dangerous road of monoculturalism.

You say: “Having the social whole segmented to be represented by ethnicity or ‘culture’ pits one against the other for attention as well to meet the respective ‘needs’ of that ‘"culture(s)’ “. It doesn’t have to pit one against the other. If my representatives at local, state and federal level, start modi coddling one group over another then voters can consider this at the next election.

For instance: my representatives have been able to meet our public and private school funding needs without “pitting one against the other”. You have two groups who have different cultural needs and these are being met without major conflict. I think that this ability to meet the needs of various groups is generally the case in areas where common sense prevails and the representatives are energetic and responsive to reasonable requests.

You say: “The desire to achieve victim status becomes the highest social value and this leads the asccuser (sic) as moral authority.” Sigh! This is not relevant to anything I have said. Your opinion is internet trash. An extremist anti-Jewish site says almost word for word the same thing. Multiculturalism isn’t a victim it’s just a term to describe a social way of living. I agree that I have no more moral authority than other posters. (cont)

Aqvarivs. You say, “your multicultural politically correct teachers have failed you.”

That is a foolish assumption. My teachers taught me according to a curriculum. I wasn’t told about the Indigenous peoples; they taught me the British-only line; didn’t teach about other cultural ways etc, etc. I was taught according to what was politically correct at that time. I have studied and discovered and worked things out since high school. (Who’d a thought I would defend my old school teachers? Bless ‘em.)

Apparently my opinions are not politically correct in your culture - so thank God for multiculturalism. Yes you are correct the almost monocultural education system did fail to give me a fair and accurate account of my country. Perhaps this explains why others educated during time like the Pauline Hansons of this world, who apparently didn’t think things through, cause so much strife.

You failed to address my points and resorted to playing the person and even assumed (invented) a history to further your position. That you resort to positing silly assumptions about my teachers says a lot more about your integrity and your lack of reasoned opinion than you think. Your lack of integrity and diligence when presenting an “argument” suggests that your education fell short of the mark.
If you think I will ever integrate into your culture of unfairness then you are wrong.

I hope posters can see that the stuff that aqvarivs regurgitates is what causes strife. It is not logical and it is not grounded in any reasonable assumptions-it is truly propaganda.

And don’t let posters who happen to hold the same opinion as you delude you aqvarivs. It is biased opinion and more disrespectful than an honest appraisal.

I’ll continue to regard posters as well intentioned despite their obvious tactical approach. We’ll have a better chance of having a productive discussion if posters stay focussed on the problem of social fragmentation. For instance: how much influence does text messaging have on social fragmentation – probably more than racism?

Thus far there is nothing here to even influence let alone convince.

Rainier, you little pom-marrier you : )

I think your post proved my point (again) Thank you. Multi-cultures in Australia 'integrating' into ONE Aussie team!

Banjo,

1 all draw currently, i feel.

I have to acknowledge your 'goal' that it is the immigration policy that has allowed Football to become so populist at present. But if you honestly think that Multiculturalism is RESPONSIBLE for most ethnic tension between opposing teams and it promotes separatism more than does the hatred of tiny-minded little racist groups peddling their own brand of superiority over others you are out of your gourd mate. I score my goal by pointing out that if the Aussie footballers had fully integrated instead of adopting a multi-culturalism approach they would be playing international Footy against Ireland and no-one else. Hardly something to get all that excited about now, is it? Neither could we have decent basketball, baseball or similar 'American' culture sports teams originating and reaching 'world' standard in, in Australia.

Why do some keep accusing me of supporting multi-culturalism? Just because i don't say i hate it? Actually I HAVE said that. Open your eyes people! (Opening your minds is just too much to ask for some).

In case i had not made it obvious before: I Oppose a stagnating monoculture that forces others to conform to some hypocritical, hypothetical 'Norm'. I Support an integrated, multinational society such as we have always had but either tried to deny or hide or feel we somehow had to apologise for.

ronnie peters
Teachers, not necessarily school teachers. When Howard or whatever political leader has to go off and hold coucil with an enthnic, or in your words, a cultural community -that is proof of social fragmentation and rule by special interest. All cultures can not be treated equally at all times therefore there are always victims to this god of yours- multiculturalism. What are the ethnic/cultures by percent of population. What percent by population are these ethnic/cultures represented in your multicultural society. If Asians, say for the sake of arguement, are 20% of the society are they 20% of the police force? Are they 20% of the army. Are they 20% of city council. Aborigines. What % of over all pop. do they represent. What % of Aborigines are in the police force. Sit on councils. In the army. Hold positions in state government. Are all cultures represented equally throughout your multicultural society or is it just another want to be, feel good, politically correct social spin.
Being Australian shouldn't be something you claim inorder to get what you can't when you claim to be your culture. Politicians shouldn't be meeting with Christians or Muslims or Indians or the Malay to gather votes. Politician should be speaking to Australians.
Your multiculturalism is an ideal and not in actual practice. It's like your other god, political correctness. What a joke. There is right and there is wrong,(good and evil), there is no politically correct ethic or morality.

DANGERS if DIVERSITY.

Here is a simple little story, which clearly shows that there are efforts within our community to press a particular agenda and to use our educational institutions to further that agenda in a surupticious way and to manipulate young minds.
All I'm saying, is that diversity will always result in this kind of thing happening. If two segments of the community have different views on some issue, they will seek to infuence and change the other in favor of their own view.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20839478-601,00.html

[An inquiry by a senior Education Department officer found the simulation exercise, devised by Macquarie University's centre for Middle Eastern studies, risked creating disharmony in schools and the community and that there was a "significant risk" of harm to the "welfare and wellbeing of students from particular minorities".

Documents given to The Australian show the inquiry was prompted by complaints from parents that background notes presented to the students gave positive descriptions of groups such as Hamas's Qassam Brigades and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Students were not told the groups are listed terrorist organisations and support for them is an offence under Australian law.

The profile of Hezbollah accurately said that its long-term aims were to rid Palestine of the Jewish population and create an Arab state but no mention was made of its terrorist activities, only philanthropic ones. ]

Take note, watch....and learn.

I take note and I learn - I learn that the system works - I learn that stupid people do stupid things - I guess the perps will be suitable chastened - perhaps dismissed - I dont know ....

Why focus on the dangers, DB, when there's so much to be had from diversity? Like it or not, it's one of the great drawcards of Australia. Not much point trying to unscramble an egg.

I read the article. I wonder if the exercise mentioned Israel's indiscriminate use of cluster and sulphur bombs in civilian areas?

Boaz_D,

your previous post's last statement was right - we need action and leadership on this issue to prevent violent division escalating as it has in other 'multicultural' nations.

To think we will be any less violent under a 'Monoculture' with our 'integrated' mix of citizens is pure folly, however. As SteveMadden showed us, humans of any kind can never fully 'integrate', any more than we can learn to live without war in peace. Violence is increasing in all areas of society today, not only because of Muslim fanatics, or at least awareness of it is. We should aim for 'mutual respect'.

Your last post. Interesting article, ty for posting it.

I have questions (Questions - always questions). When is bias, bias? Do we tolerate, propagate or eliminate bias in our media and schools?

What is Hamas? A terrorist organisation , Obviously (he's a bit quiet lately?) - Terrorists pure and simple. No Bias there right?

What is Israel? A 58 year old State ( younger than some OLO posters)that wants to live in peace under their own laws on their own God-Given land supported by a UN mandate (and billions in US taxpayer arms donations) who would never initiate Violence ( since the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, of course), right?

No bias there surely?

Bias is bias. Correcting a bias seems to me to have value in the Education of a truly clever and enlightened Nation.

Nazi Propaganda, Muslim Propaganda, Israeli Propaganda, 'Western' Propaganda - it all has the same aim. Justifying why 'we' are 'right' and they are evilly 'wrong'.

I trust i can expect the usual whiners to come crawling out of the woodwork attacking my 'patriotism' and suggesting i go back where i came from or shut-the-F-Up while providing nothing feasible, useful or helpful to solving divisism in our Great Nation??

By trying to pin down bias, BrainDrain, I think the only thing that can be said for sure is that

1. everyone comes to this forum with their minds already made up;
2. bias, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder;
3. bias is self-reinforcing. The message everyone takes away from the posts of others is the one they want to take away (ie. I'm right & everyone else is fooling themselves; don't they see that?)

That "we need action and leadership on this issue to prevent violent division escalating as it has in other 'multicultural' nations" is clear enough. With the methodic demonising of Islam on this site, and the dehumanisation of hapless "others" by our government, are we getting this in Australia?

Brainy_and_Bennie
I don't actually want to 'un' scramble_the_egg...I want to scamble it so much that it all looks like one basic mixture :) get it yet ?
Bennie.. you should read my piece on 'ONE NATION, ONE CULTURE ONE RACE....FULL STOP' to glean my real meaning here (Its in the private discussion area. I put a link to it above somewhere.)

BIAS...... the thing we have to decide as a nation is who are our 'enemies' (desirous of our ultimate subjection to them) and who are our 'friends'. Then, we adjust our terminology to suit BUT... I tend to dislike such terms as 'terrorist' for enemies and 'defenders of freedom' for our allies. Why not just declare them enemies and thats that. HAMAS are our ENEMIES and ISRAEL is our ALLY.

All Muslim nations are by nature (doctrinally and historically) our 'enemies' ('our' meaning the historic/cultural Australia) but for diplomatic and trade reasons we don't push that barrow too hard. Still, we need to focus on those elements of the Muslim world who are 'standout' enemies and this includes:

a)The clerics who are featured speaking in English in the doco "Obsession: the thread of radical Islam" (Google this) about "We will rule the world"
b)Iran in particular "Israel should be wiped off the map"

c)Palestinians in particular and Muslims in general, for reasons of insistence on the source of our religious heritage (Judao/Christian) i.e. Jerusalem, remain as an Islamic shrine (Dome of the Rock and Al Aksa Mosque) This kind of "enemy" is a latent one, which would only become obvious if Australia overtly supported any move to cleanse the Temple mount of the Mosque and Dome.

Let me be clear on something though, the above points are made in the sense of our current historical/cultural point in time, not as a 'Christian'. The Christian position must be the Biblical one, which allows on the one hand the 'Emperor' to make decisions of State, and on the other, individual Christians must adopt an attitude of compassion (which can only be achieved in Christ) even for enemies.(who are blinded and misguided).

BOAZ_D,

Nice attempt at rationality. 4, maybe 5?, out of ten.

Christians are supposed to follow Christ and prefer death at the hands of their 'enemies' before the death of their enemies under their (or their government agents') hands. 'Thou shalt not kill' and 'Love thy fellowman' do not come with provisos.

So now we can realise there has not been a christian nation at anytime in the last 2000 years (or before) perhaps we can do without the feel-good Judeo/Christian rationale for supplying our Nation and ourselves with ememies?

Not suprprisingly you, as a 'christian', chose to first of all seek an 'ememy' (the Old Testament goodvEvil, usvThem dichotomy - divide and conquer is Satan's technique. Jesus sought the company of 'evildoers' and publicans instead of the 'godly' scribes and Pharisee's remember?) and gave us three handy starting points.

I have to wonder where the Shi'ite muslims who fled Saddam's perscution and were accepted by Australia as legitimate refugees come into that 'equation'. Or the Christian Lebanese refugees of Israeli bombings (not terrorism - justifiable retaliation. Whereas Hamas and Hezbollah have no right to retaliate or stand up to an occupying invader/conquerer?)

Bias is Bias. Truth is Truth. There is precious little truth being spread about the Israeli State in western culture today. Not that there ever has been. The Truth would make us all too uncomfortable.

And there is no real profit in it as there are in lies, corruption, and war.

Any secular reasons for us choosing Iran and Palestinian terrorist organisations bent upon 'our' destruction as enemies of Australia?

Fact to note: 14 million Jews world-wide, 6 live in Israel. 60 million Iranians, 25 million Iraqi's, (??Afghanis) and about 10 million Palestinians, I do not have full figures for but suspect the majority live in their 'own' lands.

Aqvarivs. "Politician should be speaking to Australians." They already are - the immigrants you refer to are Australian citizens.

You say: "Your multiculturalism is an ideal and not in actual practice."

My multiculturalism is both and ideal and an actual practice. I have presented why I think multiculturalism is good above. You disagree. If you don’t think multiculturalism is an actual practice what is your problem? I think we must all have ideals. A multicultural society that really gets into goodwill and respect for the other is a great ideal to aim for.

I could say the same about your ideal which denies the democratic right to cultural difference. A monocultural utopian Australia is impossibility because even, for instance, if we were all W.A.S.P. sooner or later someone would form their own group. The history of Christianity confirms this. A homogenised monoculture is impossible - your position and my position, in part, confirm this too.

You said: " It's like your other god, political correctness. What a joke."

Show me where I have argued that political correctness is a god. That is a childish attempt at belittlement. You are wrong. How many times do I have to prove you wrong before you start to be sensible? It was you who tried to swing the discussion to political correctness rather than actually discuss the issue at hand.

You say: "There is right and there is wrong, (good and evil), there is no politically correct ethic or morality." Well you've been proven wrong but I wouldn't say you are evil.

And again you brought up the term politically correct Aqvarivs which is irrelevant to the discussion. “Your multicultural politically correct teachers have failed you.” Your back peddling on the teacher thing is understandable given the foolishness of such an assumption. Teachers is inclusive of school teachers. You used the term in a way that suggested "politically correct ethic or morality" - not I.

In a monocultural society political correctness would limit the ability to argue against wrong-headed ethics and morality. Remember Luther, Jesus, early feminists, Solzhenitisyn, Thomas More, Socrates and so

ronnie peters
You live in a country governed by a system based on British parliament and Judeo-Christian values, with white leaders, policed by whites, and defended by an army of whites. You throw a passing mention and inclusion at culture and proclaim a multiculture society. Sorry but you have to do more than proclaim multiculture. It needs to be fairly instituted. All of the many ethnic/cultures have to be represented in government, in the police, in the army, in all of the institutions equally and as equals.
When we no longer speak of minorities, or the ethnic vote, when I see equal representation across the board. I'll say Australia is multicultural. I'm certainly not going to say so due to the number of different restaurants or because you can point and say see there goes one. I'm not necessarily against multiculturism or your defence of the idea. I'm saying it isn't being honestly created and that as it is, is
just simple politically correct speech to give the impression of multiculturalism not actual multiculturalism as an Australian institution. We let them come here, to live and work, and open their shops, therefore we're multicultural. NOT. I just saw an advert by Australian Tourism (as an arm of the Australian government) representing Australia as young bikini clad white girls playing on a sandy beach, white middle aged guys playing golf, white lady leading a camel train, all interspersed with Australia's well known landmarks.
Hurrah, we're multicultural

Excuse me Sneekeepete!

This country does not actually have Multiculturalism, which would include "multi-legal-systems" such as Sharia or perhaps the cultural practise of racism that occurs in say Japan towards Koreans.

What we have is simply what we have always had, Multiracialism, which accepts all others but makes them conform to OUR ethical and legal standards. Don't try and pretend that you are somehow above this, the fact that you yourself and all your kind would not budge on human rights and equality for all but purport to be for ALL cultures. The only difference between you and a so-called "right wing" person is that they are open and HONEST about not budging on such aspects of our way of life, you are devious and insulting to the intelligence of any newcomer to this country by pretending to be "all for their ways" when in reality you think that Sharia or the Indian Caste system is barbaric.

So, this is the point: there is and never has been, nor ever will be, Multiculturalism allowed in this country or any Western country because this would go against our obligations to the UN charter of human rights, not to mention our very humanity and the future of our world.

Gosh! I guess I made the mistake Mr Antibigot of using the colloquial understanding of multiculturalsim - pretty much like every body else has on these pages.

Yours is a unique re-interpretation of a policy replicated by governments of both persuasions here.

I fail to see how I put myself above anything - and I really dont get the humna rights thing either.

And I dont get the honesty of "right wingers" not budging on "our way of life" - what is that they are not budging on? -

Unless you think "our way of life" is threatened.

And I find nothing devious about supporting others rights to do what they like within our legal system.

and yes I think Sharia law is not appropriate.

Similarly the caste system is is a counter productive approach to life - but I can accept many other aspects of those cultutres with out endorsing every thing about them - so what? -

I embrace much of western culture that migh be represented by the US -but I reject the notion of the death penalty - so does that make me duplicitouis in my approach to things American?

I also think the phrase referring to me and "my kind" suggests a tendency to simply stereotype groups of people furthering the Them/Us dichotomy that is the real root of this tension.

So this is the point: your attempt to redefine MC might suit your argument - but not in the context that it is popularly used - that is the point - all the rest is reminiscent of a hooked fish flapping around on the landing.

MC exists - even Boaz D agrees - and I stand to be corrected here - he just wants us to mix a little faster - until the differences homogenise - maybe we are just in a period of transition - changes will come - they are inevitable.

I still do not know what all the fuss is about

Aqvarivs
You are not listening. I have already agreed the British parliament (which is in part from the Greeks) is the basis of our democracy. That Judeo-Christian values is the basis of our culture is debatable. I think politicians and a lot of Christians have strayed from that grounding whilst still proclaiming faith to gain moral authority.

You say the army, leaders, police are all whites. Fairer to say "mostly" white because the other groups are minorities, hence representation is reduced.

I have presented more than “a passing mention” to explain my position in relation to multiculturalism. My posts are evidence enough.

When more people take up the positions you mention it doesn't mean we will be multicultural because maybe their culture is more geared towards self-employment and industry. Minorities will always exist -it is the nature of society.

My understanding of multiculturalism is deeper than your claim that it is merely that "different restaurants" make Australia multicultural.

I have made the limits of multiculturalism clear. I don’t think that because we insist on residents obeying Australian law ( so long as it is fair and just) that we are no longer multicultural. A lot of immigrant cultural practices fall within Australian law. Some don’t and are rejected. There are long-term Australian citizens who indulge in illegal cultural practices .

You say: “I'm saying it isn't being honestly created and that as it is, is just simple politically correct speech to give the impression of multiculturalism not actual multiculturalism as an Australian institution.” I take your point here. However, I still think there is sufficient difference in cultural mores to warrant the term multicultural. Multiculturalism doesn't mean multi-legal.

Aqvarivs. Try thinking in degrees rather than black and white terms. Australia will be MORE multicultural as we work out the acceptable behavioural boundaries.

The all-white add may be politically correct in the eyes of a racist but it doesn’t represent the true situation in Australia. Moreover, I don’t know what religion, ideology or cultural mores the “white” actors live by and neither do you. It is racist sterotyping to assume otherwise.

Whoa there, Antibigot.

MC does not even go near advocating separate laws - for anybody. We don’t even allow Australian aborigines that luxury, and fair enough. MC is the idea of respecting and allowing for the ideals, faiths, languages, customs, dress codes, festivals etc of other cultures, where they do not transgress the legal code of this one. Enough of the rahrah about UN charters and the future of the world.

Australia has been one of the few places where multiculturalism has worked well, and given half a chance it will continue to work. Among European nations we are envied, and cited as an example of how various cultures can peaceably live side by side without falling into an us/them dichotomy, something easy to do given even the most oblique encouragement. Whether or not posters here actually like it is another matter; from reading this thread it appears some feel threatened but there are plenty, like me, who revel in it.

Did you know, antibigot, the European enlightenment came centuries after the middle east’s? They were well advanced long before the west even woke up, and we owe quite a lot to that region.

As for “you yourself and all your kind”?? And comments like “Western values, i.e, human rights, the way we live in western nations, is [sic] superior to non-western values” Pull your head in. Better still, get a dictionary & look up bigot.

Aqvarivs,

“All of the many ethnic/cultures have to be represented in government, in the police, in the army, in all of the institutions equally and as equals”. But they are! We have dozens of nationalities represented in our federal institutions. The rule of law and the opportunity this country offers applies to all citizens equally.

Like Antibigot you equate multicultural with having no dominant culture at all. It ain’t the case…I think you already know this.


Australian Government policy on multicultural Australia (May 2003):

"Our culture embraces Australian-grown customs and the heritage of Indigenous Australians, early European settlers and more recent migrants who have all contributed to making ours the diverse society it is today.

The freedom of all Australians to express and share their cultural values is dependent on maintaining balance between unity as well as diversity, and responsibility as well as rights. All Australians are expected to have an overriding loyalty to Australia and its people, and to respect the basic structures and principles underwriting our democratic society.

These principles are:

• The Constitution
• Parliamentary democracy
• Freedom of speech and religion
• English as the national language
• The rule of law
• Acceptance and equality

bennie,

"Our culture embraces Australian-grown customs (but not exclusively) and the heritage of Indigenous Australians (but only that which we 'tolerate' - in the sense of what is 'permitted' by those in power), early European settlers (but not early Chinese or Afghan settlers of the 1800's?) and more recent migrants who have all contributed to making ours the diverse society it is today".

Politicians 'lie' and people like antibigot/benjamin love/hate them for it, as do I, by omitting the whole truth (in brackets above).

I like your posts and ronnie_p's too.

Aqvarivs,

I have not agreed with all you have posted. I find your latest post makes a great deal of sense.

I would question however just what 'Aussie' Culture IS?

I do not believe Australia has a unique (mono)culture, and is, in this sense, a multicultural one. (consisting of the thoughts, habits and beliefs of many differing (multi) cultures from different countries).

Ask ten Australians what their favourite TV show is and you'll get at least half of them saying either a British or American (or a half-arsed licenced copy of) one.

Ask the same ten what their favourite song is and i bet the odds increase in favour of America greatly.

Ask who their favourite author is (who they read the most of) and the chances of it being an Australian author (or cartoonist) are quite small.

TV, music and books are quite considerable factors in our 'culture' as is our history and those people/country's we trade with and who's citizens now hold Australian passports or citizenship.

We could try and overcome this 'multiculturalism' by saying we have a 'western' culture, as if to suggest that we have only things in common with the US and the UK and those European cultures we pick and choose to fit in with some kind of homogenous local culture. The problem is: increasingly the US and the UK are facing the kind of problems of identifying their 'unique' culture with, as we have been discussing here.

cont.

The end of one law for all?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6190080.stm

Immigration sparks white exodus from UK!
http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=326780

It’s all one way now for the native British. Guess which way?

But back to Australia, just a few subtleties not to be confused with conspiracies.

Here’s one, the little girl in the big dog add, at 7.30pm no longer kneels at her bed and prays. Why? I’m thinking MUSLIM, I mean pardon me, MUSLIM, excuse me I really meant to say an Australian of a unspecified religion and ethnicity with their intollerent attitudes, aaaah that’s much better.

Looking at whats happening to England London specifically, I can’t help but think a policy that increases violence and division at the same time leading to a mass exodus of the native population is quite possibly a bad policy, no wait, BING! Chinese food, that great savoir for the stayers. Where are those that flee heading? They mention white flight but race is an illusion all an illusion right pro mc’s ;), it’s just all an optical illusion ;)

I don’t like that other nastier side of the people who didn’t exercise their flight response, in future they might pull on that other side of the mechanism.

Another subtlety hula meat or whatever the hells it’s called secretly replacing what ever the hell the other stuff was.
Muslims getting rushed ahead in morgues for some religious reason, in a sense queue jumping even though their dead, quite a feat.

Unscramble eggs? I prefer attempting to integrate Muslims and the west to attempting to mix oil and water. Melting pot? If one was to take to a melting pot at an atomic level their would be atoms (people) flying left right and centre, colliding, exploding, miss-matches, but from far away (parliament) seems quite a gentle process. I predict in 30 yrs time (war zones, social unraveling, mini Iraq in Sydney, gangland fights at alarming levels 100 odd ppl. But we can stop this! Police state everyone’s a winner! Bring me the Chinese food

The World is changing (thanks to wealth, trade, international travel (aircraft and cheap flights), refugees fleeing war zones, etc etc. Borders are getting blurred, 'races' are interbreedng, mixing and sharing more and more. It cannot be stopped and only backwards thinking and looking people want to try. (This is simple fact - doesn't mean i like it any more than the bigots do!)

Australia started life as a British Colony. Because of that, we had a British government (the Queen is our head of State, a titular figure only, granted, but we pay allegiance to her still after 218 years), British currency, British style houses and gardens, British 'habits' and preferences. And all this while despising the British. More and more Howard is seeking to replace Britain with America as this more adequately expresses 'Aussie' culture and is aimed to hold back the Asian horde. Other nations have had a small impact on us but it is getting ever harder to identify what is Australian and what has merely been copied from somewhere else.

The advert sells people a view of Australia some people wish it was (White heaven). Suggesting the advert displays actual reality here is a little short-sighted, don't you think?

Obviously,

I'm going to be charitable and choose to believe your last post was more influenced by the 350 word limit than alcohol or similar mind-altering drug, but geez...

If you cannot even understand the Muslim concept of Halal and make any attempt to even spell it, let alone appreciate someone's reason for following it, that just shows us all how ignorant you are and how little your opinion on this issue actually counts.

I'll leave other comment to Ev and others, i have more to learn than reading your rubbish can teach me.

What honestly defines a country? It's institutions. The many arms of government. A multicultural society is one governed at all levels, and supported(culture) at all levels by its citizens(race). Inclusion. That every ethnic/culture feels responsible for the direction of that government and that country. In speaking of the government and direction of Australia all must feel ethnically/culturally bound to Australia and that they are empowered as cultural identities to influence that government and direction not just for their cultural empowerment but for all citizens/ethnics/cultures of Australia as Australians equally. This is not as some pose mono-culturalism, it is in effect the true expression of diversity in a multi-ethnic/cultural society. What a horrible thought it is to live in a country, pay taxes, own property, raise your children, vote, etc, etc, and not feel bound to Australia as an Australian in heart, with pride, to feel that it is worth ones life to protect it as a nation. Your nation. And not simply a country where you live tolerably.

BRAINY
I hope my marks will improve this time :) maybe 7/10 ?

Anyway.. I was saying in my last post, that any nation must know its friends and its enemies. We can trade with the enemy until he clearly (like Hitler) crosses a line of no return where we can see the writing on the wall if we don't decisively act 'NOW'.

I would now include 'Communists'as Enemies (Might also include radical socialists if my experience yesterday is any indication)

At the IR laws protest, I held up a sign 'BLAME CHINA' and underneath it had in smaller letters "Tax Slavery at Customs" suggesting that the low price of chinese manufactured goods are made on the back of slave like conditions. This was aimed at leading into a discussion of whethere Beazly (or Howard) would be willing to do the following 2 things.
1/ Tax manufactured goods from countries which use unjust, slave like labor conditions
2/ Do NOT allow a full tax deduction for outsourced labor on business Tax returns. Overseas 'outsourcing' would not be able to be legally camoflaged as other operating expenses. Invoices from "Bangalore Call Centres Pty Ltd" would be a partially deductbable expense.

TACTICS. A communist woman tried to limit my free speech and told me to get out. (I gave my usual reply :) She just wanted 'world socialism' so it was not even about a choice of Beasley/Labor or Howard/coalition. Well.. she pointed to me (after telling me nose to nose she felt like 'smashing my face in') and yelled 'HE'S A BOSS' repeatedly, trying to egg on Unionists to gang bash me. Finally she physically attacked my sign, and broke it. (I was looking sideways conversing with a passer by about the actual issue.)whereupon I marched her off to the nearest cop, where I discovered 'politically correct policing' first hand. (Men are always wrong :)

This type of tactic, demonstrated clearly the manner in which segmented competing social interests will act. Diversity=Conflict

Aqvarivs says: "What a horrible thought it is to live in a country, pay taxes, own property, raise your children, vote, etc, etc, and not feel bound to Australia as an Australian in heart, with pride, to feel that it is worth ones life to protect it as a nation. Your nation. And not simply a country where you live tolerably."

Well said Agvarivs. I still disagree with some of the detail (citizen/race?) and some of your and others'opinions re: multiculturalism and other stuff. However, I embrace multiculturalism (within reason)in the spirit of an "Australian at heart" and feel willingly and wholeheartedly bound to my country - Australia. Always have - always will. "Always faithful".

Re: "worth ones life to protect".

When you go home
Tell them of us and say
For your tomorrow
We gave our today

This inscription is on the 2nd (British) Division cenotaph in Burma.
I believe we must honour that sacrifice by being the best citizen we can - if you disagree with me on how we do that - well then that is too bad old son.

Boaz you mark my word outsourcing will kill this place. You just heard what Aqvarsivs said about giving our all for this place. There are a lot of disgruntled people out there who aren't about to lift a finger to protect this place because of corporations deserting Australians. Why give our lives in a conflict for companies that ran away from us when we most needed them? That sold out. This is not me talking I am from a different generation this is a young fella working in a factory that is eyeing cheap labour.

The best defence force this country could have is a citizenship that felt that they mattered that had some spiritual and material investment -something worth fighting for. You can never win a guerilla war and there isn't too many people in this country who would give a shiet about defending a rental property; a future of struggle; companies that sold out; companies that crow about patriotism and loyality; a government that treats people like criminals if they lose their job and need to recoup some of their taxes to tide them over; make a fortune off this place then sell out Australians. That is straight from the factory floor. I agree.

Work out how much the overseas companies are saving in labour costs and make that the basis of import tax.

BOAZ_D,
An A+ this time! (for putting your bum where your mouth is ( NO - I actually mean that in a NICE way - standing up for your beliefs at the IR rally!) Well done.)

Well done also for the nice diversion away from the theme of your last post and a little away from the topic and from my question: What secular reasons does Australia have for setting Iran and Palestinian 'terrorist' organisations as our enemies. They hurt us how exactly?

Oh... and wouldn't a woman who wanted 'world socialism' be a world socialist not necessarily a communist? Or did she show you her 'card'? : )

I think your experience demonstrated more the effectivenes of free speech in our society and the dangers inherent in a 'police state'. Sorry you got the rough end of Justice but people have more rights than placards you know? At least until the Revolution , Brother!

Wouldn't it be nicer (and more christian) if we made friends instead of enemies and truned our swords into ploughshares? Peace out man : )

I am surprised Ranier has not pointed this out yet, perhaps he does not appreciate the divergence as much as i can? But if Australia is not MULTI-cultural. Why do our courts acknoledge Aboriginal Tribal law and adjust their standards because of it (for aborignines but not other 'tribal groups')? Why is so much of our government dedicated to Uniquley Aboriginal issues. How much assimilation or integration do euro/whites engage in of the traditional Aboriginal Culture that is valued highly by our government to the tune of billions of dollars annually, commissions, day of reconciliation etc? Why are so many government positions made available solely to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders - no europeans need apply (unless you declare and can prove you associate with aboriginals and their communities?

Just a thought?

Gee Brain Drain, how do you expect me to cover all that in 350 words?

There are clearly many underlying assumptions/myths/ uninformed BS in your questions that would take me more than the wordage I have here to deconstruct and unpack just for your benefit.So I won't . Sorry.

I've addressed white privilidge and racism many times here in this discussion. If I didn't provide some historical context to these points I apologise.

But lets just start with one fundamental fact. We did not cede nor has it been declared that this nation was conquered. We have been gainfully fighting for a treaty for over 200 years.

Canada, New Zealand and the USA have all entered in treaties with its first nations people.

We are NOT immigrants. We are not 'ethnic' people. Is over 40 000 years enough time for us to declare ourselves 'the first ever Australians'?

I think it is. We have much in common with the Irish republicans for political and civils rights.

Being a "pom' I thought you would know something about the illegal occupation and invasion this continent. Apparently not.

Why not some basic research and then get back to me with modified questions. I know your intentions are good, but you really don't know what you don't know.

That said: here is one link to some basic reading:

http://www.teachers.ash.org.au/aussieed/reference_aboriginalaustralia.htm#general

cheers

Brain Drain

“If you cannot even understand the Muslim concept of Halal and make any attempt to even spell it, let alone appreciate someone's reason for following it, that just shows us all how ignorant you are and how little your opinion on this issue actually counts”

May I dissect this statement.

“If you cannot understand the Muslim concept of Halal and make any attempt to even spell it, let alone appreciate someone’s reason for following it”
I could understand it, only in a religious sense, if I tried, if I wanted to! Why would I want to understand this bizarre religious persuasion to only eat a certain meet killed in a certain way. You do understand Voodoo right? You braindrain need to touch up on it. When was the last time you indulged in a bit of Voodoo? If you do not understand voodoo any more then I understand Australian cattle killed in queer Muslim religious ways then you have my problem. What is this problem you ask? Just a fundamental clash of cultures and lifestyles sure to cause many future implosions in many parts of Australia.

I really do think you need to touch up on killing chickens and smearing their blood on you (voodoo). just as much as I need to touch up on swinging a cow around to face a certain direction, at a certain time, feeding this, that and the other, but making sure that he does not eat this, REPEAT this cow can NOT eat this, in the name of Allah do not feed this cow!.... infact the chicken blood smearing makes more sense to me, then making Australian cattle become unwilling participants in perverse religious rituals.You-need-to-understand-the-concept-behind-slitting-a-chickens-throat-and-smearings-its-blood-on-you(multi-culti-enlightenment)

I draw note to a comment in my prev post, little girl in big dog add no longer goes to her bed and prays. I’m guessing some (or many) Muslims made a complaint and slyly removed a small piece of my culture, as if splinter falling from a fence, only problem is this fence is a patch work job held by sticky tape.

To be CONT

Unrelated point now, Boaz you should have broke the sign on her.

Back to it.

Ronnie Peters
You have been one of the biggest pushers of multi-culti policy of many of the posters. Did you click on the links above by me? Native British exodus from Britain (poor natives), not one law for all (oh ooohhh tribal laws being enforced). Could I make the assumption, multiculturalism equals mass exodus of natives and splits a nation into tribes with tribal laws.

Australia is multicultural? A big piece of land and a lot of cultures in it. The earth too is multicultural, a big planet and a lot of cultures in it. just a sarcastic point now, no major wars have ever been fought in this multicultural planet, and no wars have been fought over race, culture or religion which coincidently have been thrown into a pot together, to get the mass benefits of diversity out (Chinese food), I like the risk:)

Multiculturalism definitely isn’t for people or a nation that wants stability. The British & Swede’s & (most of Europe actually). The Exodus of hundreds of thousands (million) odd British really equates to a people fleeing multi-culturalism, your great policy that leads to......

“Native British inhabitants fleeing their ancestral homelands”-Future London times heading.
“Ethnically British people now make up just 26% of British population”-Future London Times heading.
“-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-“ooh the humanity (Genocide of natives) self inflicted by teaching the youth wrongly.

though I predict some type of all white area, several probably, that white people and only white British will live in, bit like Arnhem land here for those anti multiculturalists natives and their old world view, remembering a time when the country was all black(never was many Indonesians arrived by boats(introduced dingoes for proof))

White people are native? Have homelands? We need to drop these racist attitudes aimed at Europeans as colonists, invaders, slave traders and come to the obvious realization that white people are native in Europe (England) and have homelands. And do not just exist to create diverse perverse multi-cultural havens for third worlders. Got allot more not-enough-room-4-now

Obviously,
Is Islam the only bizarre religious persuasion? Which isn't? Does fish on Fridays and fasting through Lent make any sense to you?

The only cause of "a fundamental clash of cultures and lifestyles sure to cause many future implosions in many parts of Australia" would be sheer ignorance, from either side. We only fear what we don't understand. Make an effort. You can do a lot better than "guessing Muslims made a complaint and slyly removed a small piece of my culture", surely.

Regarding your links to what's happening in England, two points.

1. This isn't England.
2. "under English law people may devise their own way to settle a dispute before an agreed third party." It sounds sensible to reduce the workload of civil courts. You could always move to England, just so you could leave again.

obviously, white people are only 20% of the worlds population, not the 80-90% you imagine it to be.

Yep. The future of the world is brown.

How pleasing it was to see, on TV last night, those muslim teenagers practising their Life Saving drill, at Cronulla. In a couple of weeks they will be going for their Bronze Medals.

I understand there are about 20 of them of both sexes.

To me this is integration and beats diversity, with its emphasis on ethnicity, hands down.

I am sure these kids will feel part of the Australian community and whats more they do not have to give up their religion or major part of their cultural heritage to do that.

Others may call it what they will, but surely this ia the way of the future.

congratulations to all concerned.

Banjo, its interesting to note that you have set yourself up to decide what is acceptable integration/assimilation.

How many of these kids will have to put up with taunting and racism "just to fit in"? Would you put your children through the same?

Its all so bloody simple to you isn't it.

"How many of these kids will have to put up with taunting and racism "just to fit in"? "

Geez Rainier. You do seem to have a problem. The answer kinda depends on what kids learn from their parents and peers. Mine would be, "none, hopefully"

Rainier,
Set myself up to decide. What rubbish. As far as I am concerned any or most activities that encourages migrants and their families to mix with others than their own ethnic group helps to integrate them into the community. I applaud the initative of the Life Savers at Cronulla and I hope other organizations will follow their lead.

You may have good cause, but you do have a problem with racism. Try and get rid of the chip on your shoulder and have a more positive outlook on life. Here endith the lesson

Much more of this and we will be challenging Bradmans highest innings -

however the sneekmeister must signal this as his last post here - I really think the forces of good have triumphed - MC rules - it has weathered the storm -

Call me crazy but as I wander the various blogs here and there I get the feeling that the general sentiment about immigration is softening - more people embrace it than dont -

inspite of the best efforts of the few racial determinists left standing - things are returning to normal - John Howard and Amanda Vanstone twisted the face of Australia into something we no longer recognise when it comes to immigration - and even though it has taken a few years we are deciding we dont like what they have done -

Howard and his racially motivated attack dogs have backed off - mainly because the war is going pear shaped so they no longer need absolutely every one to hate Islam as much as they once did-

and as I said apart from a few of their fellow travellers with the energy left to carry on the fight - more and more people are recognising the Islamophobia for what it is and recognise how it has infected the manner in which we relate to all immigrants.

So I suggest we all return to our villages - prepare for Christmas - and stop worrying -

Geez Rainier,
I know you identify with a poorly treated minority and you LOVE to fight your own battles but you really can be your own enemy at times.

If you read the posts here with a bit more care and a much smaller shoulder chip you would realise that SOME of your reasons for having to face so much negativity and ignorance is because you create some of it. (True Mate - I am actually in agreement with your philosophy, just not your determination to see it everywhere you direct your own gaze to)

You don't have a clue that i have worked in the FED ED dept in the aboriginal grants area (an 'Unidentified' position at that time in the early 80's) for three years and had friends in the area for over ten, so i do actually KNOW what i am talking about here (concerning the Aboriginal community, having had to be on the front line of the 'racial' cultural war) and that as a pom i am used to the kind of racial abuse you endure (though not as bad because i am white).

Banjo and bennie don't understand just what those muslim lifesavers will go through but that's ok.

I believe i was the first person in this thread to mention Terra Nullius, that despicable Act which took Australia for the whites away from the 'non-existant' aborigninal tribal culture so please don't group me with some of the less understanding mob.

I am not your enemy, i know more than you recognise and all that i stated concerning Aboriginals in Australia is fact not bias.

I can view the true sitation with some degree of objectivism since i do not have to face the same bias daily you do.

I have bias as we all do. You are in a position to lecture me about what it is like to be aboriginal in Australia; don't try to tell me what i do know is wrong, however, or point out false observations about what i write because you misunderstood my intent.

Obviously,

Seems you are incapable of learning anything other than how to become even more biased and intolerant - Great lifestyle choice.

You show to all here your ignorance and you cannot even realise it when it is pointed out to you and it is right under your nose.

"I could understand it, only in a religious sense, if I tried, if I wanted to! Why would I want to understand this bizarre religious persuasion to only eat a certain meet killed in a certain way. "(sic)

Two small points to note. 'sic' is latin and means 'As is' or as written in the original. It does not mean i think you or your words are sic (readers will form their own opinions)
and; When you ask a question in writing you put a '?' after it! even if it is rhetorical (look it up).

Why would YOU want to understand? As you show so clearly you have not the slightest interest in understanding your 'enemy' the Muslims. And thus you ensure your hatred and ignorance will continue until the day you die.

I TRY to understand people in order that i DON'T hate them - even people as sad as you.

Now... where did i put my Ob voodoo doll and pins?

Oh... if you feel a strange pins and needles feeling in your groin.... don't worry - ok? I'm just doing my bit for world peace and future inter-generational harmony.

Brain Drain

You never give answers to my valid points, you throw labels like “ignorant, racist, racial determinist yadda, yadda, yadda” label flingers don’t have credibility because their out of ideas. You need to answer the points as opposed to fearful slinging of tired labels.

Brain Drain does not answer or give points to my and millions of Australians query’s(views) but throws tired labels as if that’s all his got. You just don’t answer the questions; I answer yours and give mine in return. I could call you a fantasy dreamer, un-naturalist, driving us down the road of a police state, but I refrain because I have good points whereas you go ahead and fling these exhausted labels. I’m guessing you’re just out of ideas and multi-culti positives.

Calling me ignorant means your calling millions of Australians ignorant making you a good mate. How many people that you know have you just called ignorant who’s opinions thought contrast to yours, have just as much if not more weight and meaning.
The truth is I and millions of other Australians are not “ignorant” as you continually spew out like a broken record, you just cant debate properly, whether its your own fault or that theirs just not enough positives of MC.

Brain Drain instead of addressing any of my points above you’ve come up with this...
“TRY to understand people in order that I DON'T hate them - even people as sad as you.” You sir are a man who’s lost his logic, if infact you had any in the first place.

Poster Obviously, Please read my comments before commenting on my comments. I made it clear that I was opposed to multi-legalism. Don’t waste my time.

“What they mustn’t do – and this must never happen – is to stray into the field of criminal matters.” I agree with what QC Butler says. No I don’t usually follow links.

I also think that religion should be kept out of parliament.

I embrace multiculturalism because to not do so is to believe and want a way of life - or a culture - where the other person and group haven’t a right to practice their ways. I will practice my ways regardless of which group controls the government. Even if people think their way of life is superior - creating happiness and equality can never happen if we deny other people the right to certain choices. It will start with immigrants and spread to everyone until making politically correct choices will be forced onto us. Do unto others - the “Golden Rule” -is a cultural more of my culture. Your ideal culture is different to mine so we are different and multicultural.

Recently in the Courier Mail there was an article in which it told about people selling up and moving because of inconsiderate neighbours. This suggests a difference of general community behaviour that people won’t put up with. Sometimes it is cultural where a group (family, organisation or business doesn’t respect the needs of others (peace, quiet and safety) or just an irrational hatred of people who don’t fit in. So cultural differences are not only about ethnicity but how people behave and whether the way of life of others fits in or impacts on others unreasonably. There are plenty of Australians who have no regard for others; likewise immigrants on that personal level usually are just like the rest of us.

I am not going anywhere. And immigrants are welcome here.

Rainer: Overweight kids get taunted -why are you so special?

Ronnie
while I recognize that migrants coming here bring a culture with them, what is wrong with our high commissions and regional representatives making it crystal clear that to come here is to join our society and be willing to embrace our culture ? I mean.. is this a bad thing ? At least people will know what they are in for.

Secondly, why not structure our accepting side of things to this goal ? Given that there will be inevitable cultural clashes between a foreign culture and here, surely it is better to promote unity and assimilation than diversity and alienation ?

This does not have to be a 'hard' faced thing, it should be joyous and good willed. Clearly we will still benefit from the various foods and customs we find attractive in newcomers, but we don't want to lose our own cultural and social identity in the process and I defy anyone to show me a migrant who would wish it any other way, considering how they would feel in their old countries if a shipload of 'whities' rolled up.
There is a difference between accepting migrants, and accepting them with an attitude which does not accept US. To cling to ones own culture, and refuse to adjust to the host seems just a little ethno/culturalcentric and ill mannered to put it mildly. In Anthropological terms this is one of the 3 possible outcomes of culture shock.

1/ Rejection of the new, clinging to the old.
2/ Rejection of the old and 'Going native' with the new.
3/ 'Studied adjustment'.

The last [3]is the best.

SNEEKY.. last post ? :) yes.. that's what's sounded just before everyone goes to sleep..haha... and your victory for MC I can hear snorrrring away.. its gone, sound asleep.. while we Integration warriors battle on.

ronnie, good points in that last post.

BD, "crystal clear that to come here is to join our society and be willing to embrace our culture ?" - and which culture is our culture?

Is it the part of the Aussie culture I'm in which is accepting of others choices so long as they don't do harm to others or the culture that would deny homosexuals a place to live if some fundy did not want them as neighbours?

Is it the culture of Rainers ancestors or a more modern version of it? Is it the aussie culture that says a sunday BBQ with some friends and drinks is about as good as it gets or the aussie culture that enjoyed getting together with thousands of others to listen to Junior Graham some months ago and sing songs in praise of a middle eastern shephard god (something most aussies could not be dragged along to)?

The debate about aussie values goes on and about the only clear winner is that we can't agree on a common set. Maybe our diversity and the diversity of acceptance of that diversity is the common value.

As Ronnie points out it's not just the freedoms of migrants we are protecting, it's our own freedoms.

R0bert

BOAZ_David,
In view of your reply to ronnie peters post and before this thread runs out, I thought I would let you know about information we give to prospective migrants. The only info we give to would be migrants about our culture and society is on DIMA website and takes a bit of digging out. It is very limited and is only given out to successful visa applicants. So vittually the migrants are on their own to find info before they decide to come here. i.e. Before they apply for a visa. Irfan said he thought this was the situation.

I don't consider this to be good enough as some people that hold strong views about some aspects of their culture may decide not to come here if they are aware that these particular aspects are not allowed. e.g. arranged marriages, F G M, incest, oppression of women.

I have made representation to Andrew Robb MP, my local member and the Citizenship Taskforce in relation to drasticly expanding the ammount of info being made available to prospective migrants, including pictures of scantily clad people on a beach and women out without chaperones, and nativity scenes at malls.

Presently I think we tell them we are multicultural and leave it at that.

Some migrants must get a shock to find things that they were not aware of before arriving. I suspect the migrants friends tell them not to worry and carry on just like in the old country. You know that about 50 cases of FGM are done in Sydney each year alone and some girls are sent overseas for FGM and forced marriages.

Time will tell if anything will be acheived, and I think it would be a good start if more info was given to prospective migrants.

I wou;ld like to see more representation in this regard.

Robert and ronnie peters,
Gosh, I hope you blokes do not think ALL aspects of ALL cultures should be allowed here. Some cultures have some pretty weird practices, and some are quite alien to our society.

What do you think about allowing incest, pediphillia, eating dog or dolphin meat, FGM, cockfighting or bull fights.

As we currently do not allow some aspects that are important to some cultures, how can we claim to be multicultural.

where do you think a line should be drawn, if at all.

I agree, some cultures do have some pretty weird practices.

There's one culture I am aware of that lets kids as young at primary schoolers think it is being adult and grown up to drink alcohol till they pass out on the school ovals at night (who sells it to them?); to smoke cigarettes like their heroes on screen and at home do; to dress like the latest Slutney Spears or Aguillera music video; to be paid to move out of home and live with their high school boyfriends; that thinks 'schoolies' and 'leavers' is a decent and perfectly acceptable way to celebrate leaving school even though virtually no-one there is legally able to drink alcohol.

That's so proud of their own culture they have to create rap and hip-hop music, Eat nothing but Macca's, KFC and pizza and chips while swigging on a Coke (from Australia of course! Coca-cola have bought out every original Aussie State soft-drink company (Gest, Kirks, etc.)that Cadbury-Schweppes left them).

The same culture that makes screen heroes out of violent killers and car theives who then show how cool it is to break every road law ever made and which inspire thousands of underskilled drivers and bike riders to emulate those same feats on our roads.

The same culture that thinks we need road bikes that can do three hundred clicks and pop mono's (Woooo Hooooo!)

Oh Sure we have LAWS against that kind of thing - like Aussie culture and history has encouraged us keeping to the letter of the law.

But then we have laws against almost everything here don't we - that's one of the things that makes this country so great, we so love all our laws.

Not like those weirdo's in other whacky countries that have religious and secular laws against alcohol consumption.

Dipsticks.

Robert,
Intelligent comment. So far, no-one has made any alteration to the list of Aussie Values we helped create!