hamlet,
We live where we do because we both like the area and my husband wanted a garden. We bought the holiday place we have because it had always been my husband's dream, and I believe everyone should follow their dreams. My husband has 6 sheds and spends as much or as little time in them as he likes, I take little notice, though it can get a bit irritating when I have to track him down when there's a phone call for him. My husband has also supported me in following my dream, accepting that I could leave a job I hated and try my hand at what I'd always wanted to do, even though it meant a cut in income. My husband does most of the cooking, i do most of the clearing up. We share the parenting, shopping, and house maintainance, for cleaning we hire cleaners. i do the washing, he does the gardening. We share the lawn mowing. We walk together every morning for 30 minutes and share our triumphs, failures, worries and delights. He is my greatest supporter and I hope that he would consider me his. I wish he would relax more and often try to get him to take the pressure off himself - maybe you would see this as nagging, but , in the end, accept he is an adult and needs to take responsibility for looking after himself, as do I. We fight occasionally, grumble at one another often, sometimes I exasperate him, sometimes he exasperates me, but we like each other - as people.

hamlet, not sure why you directed the comment about prison for debt at me - the post where that was mentioned was by JamesH http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5151#62918

I've mostly been trying to follow the thread and keeping fairly quiet (for a change).

I hope that things are not as bad for most couples as you think. It is certainly that way for some couples but I've known others who appear to have genuine mutual respect (and a fun form of disrespect). Couples who value each other, and seem to find ways of living satisfing lives as couples.

Everybody in a relationship probably should stocktake from time to time to see how even the scales of change are weighted. If they are significantly onesided it may not be because the other party needed to grow more. I suspect that those most likely to enjoy controlling a partner would be incapable of that kind of self examination whatever their gender.

R0bert

Hamlet, I thought I was pessimistic about male/female relationships! Surely you must concede that the occasional couple is a genuine partnership, as ena describes her marriage? I just think she and her husband are in a quite small minority.
It's interesting that you feel that men are necessarily the ones who are making all the compromises to produce the illusion of a happy relationship, but I appreciate that unlike JamesH you acknowledge facts such as that women for most of history have not been in the position of financial control inside marriage.

Which brings me to what I think is an often obscured point: yes people can end up oppressed inside marriage, but if they are financially independent they have the practical wherewithal (if not necessarily the emotional wherewithal) to escape the situation.

I think all this discussion about who oppressed whom in their marriage is pretty pointless. Yes, sometimes through sheer strength of pesonality the person with the least financial clout in a marriage can still manage to make the life of the richer party a misery. However, I believe that the person with more financial control is in a better position to make changes they want and to leave an abusive relationship. That's why I think it's crucial for women (and it is still mostly women) to stop thinking that it is a viable and sensible idea to become financially dependent on a man, particularly while raising children. It doesn't, or course, mean that they will always end up poorer and in abusive situations, but it puts themselves and their children in a vulnerable situation that shouldn't be acceptable. That, basically, is what I think feminism should be, and has been, mainly about.

RObert has already corrected Hamlet's mistake, but I'd just like to point out that it was definitely JamesH who was making those claims about how disadvantaged men have always been financially vis a vis their wives (?!?). RObert has a grasp on reality, and I doubt he'd make such an odd claim.

hedgepig and shonga,

youre shockers, you need to get of the chardonay.

Robert, sorry, wrong target.

Re men and women, when even Relationships Australia is suggesting that women turn to lesbianism it appears that men and women really aren't compatible:

Sunday Herald Sun
10 August 2003

Older women urged to become lesbians
[The article was originally accessible at http://www.news.com.au/common/printpage/0,6093,6908932,00.html but appears to have been removed.]

By Nikki Voss and Nicole Cox

Australia's leading relationship counselling body is urging lonely older single women to become lesbians.

Relationships Australia spokesman Jack Carney said men's shorter life spans, and their pursuit of much younger women, meant women in their twilight years were often forced to turn to other women for love and companionship.

"And as women get even older it gets much worse, so we ask them to entertain the idea of lesbian relationships."

and this may be interesting:from:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/23/1064082990836.html

The major lesson was spelt out very clearly by John Gottman, a leading American researcher on marriage and relationships. He had tracked 130 newlyweds, observing their interactions and then following them for six years to see which marriages were happy and stable and which ones ended in divorce.

Gottman's advice to men was: "If you want your marriage to last for a long time, just do what your wife says. Go ahead, give in to her ... The marriages that did work all had one thing in common - the husband was willing to give in to the wife."

So the secret is, if a man wants to have a long marriage - the wife is the boss.