Boaz-David, yes the Bible is fairly straightforward about modesty, but it actually puts the responsibility on men to behave in ways that please god.

When David saw Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover up his sin, God held David responsible, not the woman for bathing in public.

A girl / woman should be able to wear what she wants to wear, unfortunately we do not live in a perfect society. There is men's behaviour which is at best distasteful, and at worst criminal.

However there is also behaviour that can be considered foolish and reckless.

If I was to walk down the backstreets of Kings Cross or St Kilda openly counting a large wad of bank notes, and I got robbed, it is the person who steals who is at fault, but I am pretty damned stupid to put that sort of temptation out there in public.

If I advertise an expensive car for private sale, and then let someone take it for a test drive without going with them, and they don't come back, then they are the criminal, but once again I have been stupid and foolish.

One thing often forgotten in this sort of discussion about women's clothes is that by and large women don't dress up to impress men. They dress up to compare themselves with other women. When you see a sexily dressed woman walk by take a look around at the watchers: the guys will take a look and look away. It is the women who follow her with their eyes until she is out of sight.

Perhaps women should look inwardly to see why they dress the way that they do: many, if not most, do not want to provoke men, they actually want to provoke other woman to reactions of either shock, admiration or jealousy.

The thing that I wonder about with this is how come whenever women have been covered over in history
it has gone hand in glove with the oppression of women.

Why is that?

I think religion struggles to cope with the power of attraction that women can have on men.

Some feminist suggest neutering us blokes and regardless of our veneer of civilization, we are still basically subjected the choices of genetic selection made by our ancestors.

We like to think because we are human that we are not driven by our base animal desires, yet it obvious that some posters are driven by a basic emotion like anger. Animals will attack to protect the young, their food etc. The males of some species will fight each other in order to have a chance at mating.

For example if an attractive woman walked into a pub and said she'd sleep with the winner, there would be a number of blokes who would be prepared to fight each other just for the chance of mating with her.

Despite the best efforts of sexologists we still struggle with human sexuality.

Esther Vilar in her book The Manipulated Man wrote "women train and condition men with the occasional use of their vaginas."

Im male and yes we do like looking at the female body ,its male nature and yes women do like looking at the male body thats female nature , some men have no respect for women I think because they fear them they fear there neediness of female company ,this fear gets twisted into hate ..so they feel the need to degrade women .

Women and Men are not so much different really , we both want love and companionship and yes sometimes we want sex ..thats just human nature it isnt evil at all

I've had a look at Barbara's background:

http://www.abc.net.au/farnorth/stories/s1677469.htm

Yes, she's certainly gone through some harrowing experiences and that can explain some of her attitudes. But her extraordinary life is far from typical, in all sorts of ways.

We're all, at least to some extent, products of what we've experienced/been taught/found to work for us, etc. This is something about me.

When I was 16, my mother told me that the best way to meet girls was to learn dancing. How true! Because I could dance, I didn't need Dutch courage to approach a girl, so, unlike most of my mates, I didn't get in the habit of going for a drink or three first. So I was better able to control my thoughts and actions

My mother also told me that some families were only concerned about the daughters not getting pregnant, but it was just as important to her that I didn't get a girl pregnant. In other words, I was taught respect.

Going dancing, I tended to meet girls who kept themselves slim, healthy and active. And they generally liked to dress attractively, perhaps sometimes cheekily or sexily. I liked that, but didn't unfairly judge them, or try to take advantage of a situation. Nothing special about that, I'd say just normal.

My first wife [a dancer] looked like a prettier version of Italian film actress Pier Angeli. We weren't suited and eventually divorced, but what do young people often think when they meet someone? "Wow, I like the look of THAT one!" We wouldn't get a dog or buy a car just on that basis, would we? Oh, the joys of youth!

My second wife had won a number of beauty contests, long before we met. Her father encouraged her to enter, he was very proud of her, but I'm told used to say that she'd never be as beautiful as her mother. Nice sentiments!

Her first fiance forbade her to enter any more.

cont

Although he sounded to me like quite a nice guy in many respects, she had the sense to get rid of him. Then she married a man who was very jealous and blamed her for being attractive. Maybe a like-mind to Hilali!

When we went out together, she could dress like one of the glamourous "celebrities" from the social pages, but I wasn't jealous, I was very proud to be with her. We had a beautiful, loving relationship for many "dancing years", until I sadly lost her a few years ago.

My ladyfriend is also an accomplished dancer and I've been asked if she has been a model. I'm sometimes accused of being shallow when I talk like this, but these three main ladies in my life have also been unusually intelligent, artistic and talented, so I hope that makes it OK. LOL.

I live close to a legal clothes-optional beach. The local Christian extremists sometimes whinge about it, but the council and police say it's quiet and trouble free. And they'd know better than the "great brainwashed", wouldn't they?

It's hot here today and I've been out to the shops. Plenty of lightly dressed girls in our beachside area, but no big deal to normal men. And we can't run a society constantly trying to accomodate the social misfits, can we? To me, a person who can't sensibly handle a gun shouldn't be allowed to own one. Similarly I would suggest that a serial rapist or paedophile shouldn't be allowed to own testicles.

Like some other posters, I regard rape as a sex crime. After all, presumably the man is getting off on having an orgasm, isn't he? And, if he can't control his weapon, then he should be disarmed.

In Perth's yesterday Sunday Times, Catholic Archbishop Barry Hickey is aping Hilali's line [although he says he isn't]. Also criticising condoms. Promoting chastity doesn't work to stop unwanted pregnancies and abortions. But sensible, non-judgemental sex education and availability of contraception does work:

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm