I think of Islam more as a political movement than a religious one and that is the basis of my objection to it.

There are other 'religions' in Australia that are sometimes, or in the case of the Catholic church, more often than not, political movements.

Australia is a secular state and can do without these intrusions upon our democratic processes and liberty.

Taking the two examples I have given, it is most exasperating where adherents to these so-called religions pledge loyalty to the leaders of those 'religious' movements instead of to Australia.

This was the case recently where some Muslims came forward to say that whilst they personally disagreed with what Mufti said, they would nonetheless support him because 'he was their leader'. To me and to many other Australians that implied a political conflict that ought not be there in the first place. There is no middle ground and no place in Australia for practices and creeds that challenge and encourage non-compliance with our laws and democratic institutions.

Either Australian Muslims will take urgent steps to secularise their 'religion' - as some Christians have had to do to limit priests who would limit their freedoms - or they will face increasing challenges to their migration and citizenship.

Yes, let's all tolerate. Let's be considerate and and discuss first whatever we feel so when we we actually say it we don't offend anyone. Then in 20 years time we can all congratulate each other when our society mirrors Britain (which is currently facing 30 terrorist plots according to M15 director general).

trueassie

You don't have to wait, it's here. The problem is that "tolerance" is being held up as a panacea and the social engineers among us are aiding the general society towards submission. These lefties hate their society. They hate and blame and are willingly aiding Muslims and Islam as fifth columnist. You have been invaded it's just that Muslims and friends of Islam don't want to promote that awareness. Be tolerant. Submit. Islam knows best. Or your a bloody minded intolerant racist.

OOOPs...they did it AGAIN !

Leaders of the BNP in UK have finally been cleared of 'Incitement_to_hate_Muslims'

They described Islam as a ""wicked vicious faith".

and the key issue in the trial was:

"The truth or falsehood of the statements is not relevant to the charge of 'likely to incite to hate"

The defense for the 2 Dannies took a similar line:

"Truth is not a defense"

My first reading/hearing of these points totally incensed me. TRUTH.. is "not"...a defence ?

Well, although kicking and screaming I now do have to agree...to a point.

Mainly because it is possible to make known such atrocious and inhuman actions of the so-called Prophet of Islam with 2 purposes, and those purposes will determine the nature of public speech.

We can say that same things with a view to 'informing' or to 'inciting'.

Unfortuantely, its a matter of perspective.

If I make a public statement "Mohammed, prophet of Islam, tortured some prisoners worse than the Americans did to the Muslim prisoners at Abu Graib"....this is a true statement of historical fact.

EVEN...if I say so in a subdued monotonic boring verbal discourse, some (not all) Muslims who heard it would claim:

1/ Death to those who insult the prophet.
2/ Inciting hate against Muslims by making misleading statements.

It may well be the case in future that I have a web site which includes such information, and even be making public statements to this effect.

The question will be..... would I be TOLERATED by Muslims for speaking truth ? (I'd happily tolerate and welcome references to the Crusades and the Inquisition)

I would be happy to goto trial on the basis of such things, but I would be guarding my tone so that the clear purpose was to:

a) Inform Muslims of things they should know...in good faith.
b) To warn fence sitters who may be attracted to the 'sugar coated' version of Islam (where u never hear of these acts of horror) of what they are getting themselves into.

Cornflower is right religion is politics. To believe in a god is to put personal fantasy before others. That is to say God does not exist , the only activity that ever happens in society is human evoked, motivated, provoked based on personal politics. If a god existed of course there would be no need for religious literature, ritual, so called religious based morality, clergy or faith. Reality would suffice. In essence then there is no justification for Islam , Christianity, Voodoo fetishists or any so called religion to ask let alone dictate their ideology of or on to anybody.
Boaz it is Christians who must carry the blame for the crusades and the inquistition. To chose to be Christian is to agree with all acts committed in the name of Jesus and God. To choose to be Islamic is to to agree with all acts committed in the name of Allah. To choose to be Nazi to agree with all acts committed in the name of Hitler.
Religion is politics.
Religion is also a choice to be ignorant. An amusing example is that Muslim terrorists use the crusades as justification , the crusades were a response to the islamic invasion of Spain. The Middle East and North Africa were converted by the sword. Islamist have nothing to complain about. People in glass houses........

Cornflower,

Given that this topic asserts that "tolerance means thinking carefully before speaking", it has to be observed that either your posts are proof of this assertion, or that you are unconsciously thoughtful, courteous and tolerant by nature. Your posts consistently display thoughtfulness, and if that is a mandatory accompaniment of tolerance, then it could be said that they also positively ooze tolerance.

They also show courage and restraint. In your post in this thread you have encapsulated the defining characteristics of our Australian polity, the heritage of the nigh on 500 year British experience of the Reformation and its crystallization in Australia into our tolerant secular constitutional monarchy, into just a few courteous but accurate words. You have charted the only safe course for the future for those who, probably mostly by circumstance of birth, have unquestioningly accepted the claims of organised Islam or Roman Catholicism over their political expression.

A major weapon of those who have sought to suppress our real Australian identity as an independent part of the British realm is that of branding any public acknowledgement of the heritage of this reformation odyssey as 'sectarian bigotry'. There is no way that your posts could be accused of showing bigotry. You have simply told it the way it is in such a way that any labelled at birth in the above categories could ponder without requiring to take offence. You describe the destination many nominally Islamic migrants have (barely daring to hope it) come here to attain, but which they dare not even mouth on pain of death, even here. Integration and the slow recession of the demands of their old culture. You speak for them, whether you know it or not.

You seem to know a bit about raising boys. On this day we remember a lot of other boys who have grown not too old, but are no longer able to speak for themselves. From my somewhat limited knowledge of some of them, you can probably safely speak for most of them also. More power to your pen.

PS. I always enjoy reading your posts.