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The Forum > Article Comments > Disempowered young Muslim men turn toxic > Comments

Disempowered young Muslim men turn toxic : Comments

By Shakira Hussein, published 1/11/2006

The offensive views expressed by Taj Din al-Hilali are all too common in many Muslim families.

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Poor old Mustafa! Seems that he would be a real loser, anyway; Muslim or not.
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 8:51:50 AM
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"SIC 'em, Rex" was the dog-whistle heralded by our Prime Minister against the mufti after the unambiguous and reprehensible cat-meat metaphor.

"But while exposing the vice of the mufti, John Howard also exposes his own double standards when critiquing religious leaders.
On September 12, Pope Benedict XVI delivered a lecture at the University of Regensberg in Germany, where he contrasted Islamic conversion by force with Christian conversion by reason. He quoted from Byzantine Emperor Manuel II who alleged in 1391 that the prophet Muhammad promoted "things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith his preached". The Pope eliminated any ambiguity by cementing the contrast: "God is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature."
Given the pontiff's lineage with St Peter and the global climate in which his speech was delivered, it is reasonable to expect that he and his meticulous minders should have known better, rather than apologise after the event.

"Sporting the title of Grand Mufti, more on par with Cardinal George Pell than the Pontiff, Taj al-Din al-Hilali should have known better and there he has no excuse either. He knew from past controversies that his Arabic sermons were under scrutiny, translated into English and fed to media channels. He knew that his words could provoke a backlash against those he ostensibly represents. He knew that front-page headlines were not a "storm in a teacup" and could never be trivialised as a "no worries, mate" situation. He knew that there is a new and growing generation of Muslims, empowered by the
Prime Minister's Muslim Community Reference Group, who denounced his misrepresentations of their faith. He knew that Muslims everywhere were already experiencing vilification under the cloud of the "war on terror".

Both the mufti and pontiff should have known better given their positions and the volatile climate. Both issued conditional apologies for the outrage provoked rather than for the remarks themselves. Both insisted that they were quoting from another source.
But their treatment was different by our Prime Minister."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/howards-double-standards/2006/10/30/1162056924240.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Posted by mikiminka, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 9:27:00 AM
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Seems like the auhor has made up her own form of Islam. Good on her. But it is not the Islam of the book.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:01:27 AM
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As I understand islam from various web-sites, news papers, books and even the koran islamic women are and always have been third class moslems in the eyes of moslem males.
Even mahomad declared that very few women would be in their paradise why because they do not have the intelligence/wisdom to follow islam and ,of course, they have been cursed by allah by being female in the first place.
In islamic nations their word is held as half of a male. Should a woman go to court? and charge a man with rape then she MUST! have four male witnesses who will testify on her behalf. If she has no four men (pervs who watched this rape) then she is in danger of being charged with adultery or fornication and executed.
I simply cannot understand a woman wanting to remain a moslem. Regards, numbat
Posted by numbat, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:36:45 AM
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Shakira said....

[We may fear old men such as Hilali and Osama bin Laden, but even more we fear the young men they inspire.]

I'm not so afraid of those young men, but of the Anglo reaction to them. Why am I afraid of this ? Because by the request of a Muslim father and son (lovely individuals by the way) at my gym for information on Self Defense in the light of the current climate, it becomes clear that many innocent and kind individuals will possibly be victimized.

Just this morning on Youtube, I read this recent 2006 comment from a Lebanese Muslim regarding Cronulla.

*[Expletives deleted]...we OWN you*

It appears from direct communication, he was among the Revenge Attackers and/or knows who they were.

The 2 extremes are the 'White Power' mob and people like this person.
In both cases, communities are likely to side with their own. Though most white Aussies have the sense to recognize the stupidity of the White Power mob, but pushed far enough, a reaction will still be likely.

Given the vast majority of Anglos....the outcome is fairly predictable and ugly.

Apart from any rights and wrongs in this, it does illustrate the cultural and social incompatability between elements of the Islamic community and its host.

Shakira shows the impact of disempowerment of her brother, the same applies to unemployed Muslim males in Australia who adopt a similar attitude. The unemployment rate is very high among young Muslim males.

Lets hope they don't seek empowerment through radicalist views like those expressed at the Haldon Street Prayer Hall in Lakemba.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:01:16 AM
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There is, of course, an alternative to all this religious warmongering, persecution and disempowering of women... it is to accept that there is not a skerrik of rational, scientific evidence for any of the gods worshipped by the three largest cults. It's all hearsay. All are derived from philosophies that were no doubt useful all those centuries ago, but have no relevance whatever now.
as for the notion that morality somehow derives from a superman in the sky -- that's nonsense. Morality is the 'good' that ensures human survival, and is to be found in all human societies over the last 150,000 years -- long before these relative newcomers to the religious scene; Judaism, Christianity and Mohhammedanism. Let's face it; humans have worshipped over twenty thousand gods in their history -- this recent unpleasant trio of gods are more violent and repressive than most previous gods, but no more believable. If you want people to behave decently to each other, follow the secular humanist values that have inspires great men always.
Posted by ybgirp, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:51:32 AM
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Shakira

It's the toxicity of their seventh-century stuck religion, in the midst of a modern society, and their fanatic "stickiness" to Allah Akbar that disempowers young Muslims, as well as old ones, and not Western society. The quicker they liberate themselves from their sacred antiquated idols, the quicker will they achieve their ambitions and hence their empowerment.

http://con.observationdeck.org
Posted by Themistocles, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 12:08:38 PM
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What a great article, lots of insight and no political finger pointing, I felt I actually learned something.
Posted by gusi, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 12:09:01 PM
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"runner" what you know about Islam is nothing. Christians have been fighting over what their holy book says for 1600 years why would you think that this is not the same for Islam?

To the Author very insightful thankyou.
White Anglo Atheist male.
Posted by Kenny, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 12:12:01 PM
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Great article. The delivery of a balanced opinion is rare and is to be applauded.

So what if the author is making up her own form of islam. Same thing happened to Christianity - declining congregations at various points have meant that the various churchs have had to "get real".

Perhaps Muslim men (or other men for that matter) that see women as inferior should be reminded about how they entered this world. They wouldnt exist if it wasnt for women (and likewise all those feminazi's out there would do well to thank their sperm donor for their own existence).

As for women not being intelligent enough to enter paradise, then lets remember the mufti's teachings that women hold the power over men. Dont men act as wild animals unable to control their urges?? Hardly the actions of intelligent creatures! Seems to me that this argument would see a much larger population of women in the afterlife. Perhaps this is why muslim women have put up with so much rot for so long.. they know they will win in the long run.
Posted by Country Gal, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 12:47:03 PM
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One of the more enlightening articles of recent weeks, particularly for how it explains the behaviour of a person who feels completely alienated from any culture. This Mustafa doesn't speak Arabic & wasn't raised in a Muslim country (so we ought to be careful as to how much we attribute his beliefs to Muslim society generally, since he quite clearly wasn't raised in a Muslim society), yet Mustafa also feels completely outside of British society too. Let's not forget that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, who massacred their schoolmates at Columbine High, also felt similarly cut-off from all cultures. Their disturbing rambling memoirs carried much of the same kind of narcissism and claims to superiority that this Mustafa exhibits.

Mustafa's dilemma is one with which many second-generation migrants would identify, although most manage to handle it in a much more responsible and balanced fashion than he. The support and understanding of the community is vital to bring alienated young men round to being productive and useful members of society.

And while I might take exception to certain aspects of their language, it's a refreshing change to be able to agree 100% with the sentiments of Leigh and David Boaz.
Posted by Mercurius, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 1:37:42 PM
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Spot on, Country Gal! And.....as an accountant, this should be up your alley....could you confirm whether there exists a little discrepancy between the earthly view and teachings with respect to the afterlife prospects of muslim women in general, as opposed to the ratio of women to men promised to muslim men in the afterlife? Or will much of the female population of paradise be merely holograms on a sort of Islamic holo-deck?

In asking this I am not seeking to trivialize what Shakira has written. Nor am I trying to stereotype Islamic men as being typified in the context of the contradiction indicated above. I am just trying to illustrate with a bit of humour a more obviously ridiculous aspect of a belief system that does not seem to mesh well with observed reality.

It is good to see a woman from an Islamic background speaking up about what we would all like to think typifies life in Australia, the ability to physically escape to some extent from the tyranny of oppressive control freaks. To such men, the words of their prophet are merely an excuse to express what is in their hearts anyway. The problem is, when such are allowed to give expression to their anger under the cover of a spurious 'religious freedom', all who see it are apt to be intimidated, especially other muslim men. The strident insistence of a noisy minority that we are a multicultural society is the only reason these standover 'men' are maintained in a position where they can perpetuate this controlling behaviour. Shakira is at least one of its betrayed prisoners that is speaking up. Good for her! As for those who promoted this policy, shame on you one and all!
Posted by Forrest Gumpp, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 2:00:16 PM
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Shakira, Muslim men are not toxic because they are disempowered, but because of the hate, frustration and resentment in Islam. Your religion is a major factor in the anger and violence we see in Islamic communities allover. Islam provides a spiritual base of hatred that gives meaning to their lives. This meaning is expressed in oppression and violence.

I would like to share some thoughts from:
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2006/10/muslim-mind-is-mind-of-rapist.html

To a Muslim a woman's body is meat, disgusting but made desirable by Satan to men. Women are nothing more than walking talking meat whose presence corrupts men and makes them sin. The only place a woman belongs is at home, in her room, wearing her Hijab. Anything else makes her fair game for rapists.

Muslims see women the same way they see America and Europe, dirty, disgusting, satanic but desirable. They do not integrate into American or European society because they do not love their new countries, they despise them but desire them for their material and physical abundance. Their relation to these countries is not love but lust fused with hatred into a desire to rape.

Along with the gang rape epidemic across Europe and Australia comes the rhetoric. In France Muslim rappers write songs that speak of raping France like a woman. When they loot, burn and kill in Paris or Sydney, it is that same perverted desire that drives them. They cannot become Americans or Europeans for the very same reason they cannot love a woman. Love or citizenship in a democratic nation with values demands virtues of them they do not have. So they turn rapist instead.

While Europe and America fruitlessly woo Muslims, the Muslims only grow more vicious and demanding. They cannot understand that these nations want to genuinely accept them and welcome them into their family. They see only an invitation to brutality...

Shakira, you know, after reading your "It not Muslims fault" column, I think that Mohammad was right about women, some women.

Kactuz
Posted by kactuz, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 2:33:33 PM
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Brilliant article, Shakira. And you sent shivers down my spine with your description of Mustafa and his reign of self righteous terror against you. As you say, you were very fortunate that the rest of your extended family supported you and not him. What must it be like for muslim girls in less enlightened families? What hope do they have of ever establishing their own humanity?
Yet, what I love about your piece is that while he failed to see or acknowledge your different but valid humanity, you have not fallen into the same trap. You allow us to see Mustafa's confusion and turmoil and you have attempted to understand what triggers his extreme behaviours. He remains human to you in a way that you never did to him.
I have often argued ( as a card carrying feminazi - as some of the weirder posters on this site are wont to call me) that the hardest battle for human rights is that of women, because when black people fight for their rights they do so against whites, Palestinians do it against Jews, workers battle bosses, gays battle straights and, in the Sectarian battles of old, Catholics fought Protestants or vice versa, but women must fight for their rights against their fathers, their brothers, their husbands and, worst of all, their sons. And, angry though we may get about our situation sometimes, we can never disregard their essential humanity.
Posted by ena, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 2:35:45 PM
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Hey ybgirp - someone who talks sense !

When will humanity learn that religion is a complete waste of time. There is no god ! Religion is all just convoluted, hypocritical, self serving, power-broking, patronising NONSENSE.

Not one "theologian" or philosopher has proven/demonstrated the existence of god (any god). (BTW the Hindus worhip, literally, millions of deities - what does/has that acheive/d ?).

More blood has been shed in the name of religion than for any other cause (except for just bloody-minded greed or power). Dare I mention the Crusades, the Inquisition, War of the Roses... and that's just a few of the Sins of christianity. Let us not forget murderous spread of Islam via the Ottoman and Murghal Empires in their respective times and places in history.

The sooner humanity puts to better use, all the resources it wastes on religion, globally, the better off this planet will be.

Wake up !
Posted by Iluvatar, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 3:13:21 PM
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Kenny you are wise in these ways
Posted by sneekeepete, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 3:36:22 PM
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There is no god says Iluvatar and I am absolutely right. Drrr
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 4:45:55 PM
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Personally I believe that I have much to learn from Shakira.

We all could if we put aside our predjudices. Why suggest that Mustafa was a looser? We could all be loosers if put in the appropriate situation. Hating Muslims as some do only exacerbates the situation.

And stop trying to hijack the article for a separate agenda. It was not about women's rights but a window into a difficult problem of certain Muslims behaving in a dangerous manner.
Posted by logic, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 5:11:12 PM
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A wonderful article, balanced, intelligent I would be proud if she was my sister.
I know that alot of people with physopathic tendencies join extreme groups as a way of legitimising and giving moral force to their violent nature.
This is probably one of the inevitable outcomes of the convergence of very different cultures. This coming together of cultures is an unstoppable part of our evolution and we must face the challenges that it presents. Although it looks bleak now, I believe the end result will be a much more enlightened world.
This is what we need, a lively vigorous discussion.
Posted by dublin4, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 5:35:15 PM
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"For a long time I had no desire to understand; I still have no desire to forgive.

But understanding is necessary and this is what I came [to do]."

Wow, that was really profound. It shows that to seek to understand a behaviour, you aren't necessarily forgiving it. I'm sure it would have taken a lot of grace to do that in your situation. Good on you.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 5:35:29 PM
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I really like this Forum. I read Shakira's article in The Australian when it was published there and I positively appreciated its thoughtfulness, personal sharing, and sharp relevance to our world today - but I lacked an easy opportunity to feed back to her a "thank you" I think she points to a problem far wider than the recruitment to extreme Islamist organisations. There are many young people who for various reasons experience themselves as excluded from a status and dignity that they think to be their right. They are likely to be on the look out for some peg on which they can hang their grievance and somehow legitimise their protest. In particular Shakira's half brother makes sense of it all and rescues his dignity through a religious-control misogyny. But more broadly we all need to aim for a society where we minimise the numbers of rebels/misfits/disadvantaged people who are ripe for exploitation looking for a cause to explain their misfortune and gain an ascendency.
Posted by Fencepost, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 5:50:23 PM
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Dear Mercurious.. I certainly appreciate that we can agree on something.
That kind of thinking lies behind all that I say, believe it or not.

I highlight various things I see as important, such as a basic incompatability of an Islamic community within a Western one.
Naturally this leads to the obvious question "But what do you want to 'do' about those here" ? Well certainly not herd them off to Nauru or Baxter. But I do advocate strict immigration policy changes, and would urge much more 'interest' to be shown by Asio, and the AFP, to build up trustworthy intelligence networks within these communities.
Why ? well.. apart from all the usual reasons I give, I just this moment saw on TV about a German politician who has received death threats from the Muslim community there for advocating they adjust to Western Values.

So, we have this very predictable cycle wherever Muslim communities exist.
1/ Government makes decisions to assist in community integration.
2/ Radical Muslims take this as a 'threat to Islam' and threaten to kill them.

The one major point I would add, in terms of toughening up our legal framework, is to insulate any person from legal action due to criticising Mohammed. I don't support smartmouth taunts, but I do support solid well sourced information, presented in public.
I totally welcome criticism of Christendom, as history cannot be denied.

Mohammeds example lies at the root of hundreds if not thousands of suicide/Martyrdom acts. (not bombings). (Iraq and other places)
Many many Chechen, Bosnian,Arab and Sudanese and Yemenese went to Falujah to martyr themselves in 'jihad' against the USA.
The ability to expose the character and actions of Mohammed is crucial to destroying the basic driving force behind such martyrdom here.
Will it alienate some in the community ? Undoubtedly. But I contend 'truth' IS a defense, contrary to the ICV legal team claiming it is not.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 6:33:45 PM
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Oh come now

I've lived in Britain and like Australia they have other ethnicities who've made good, the Hindus and Sikhs being two examples. Over here the Chinese, Vietnamese, Italians and Greeks have made a successful go of things. It's got nothing to do with white racism and everything to do with a failed ideaology.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 7:20:29 PM
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Actually logic, I think the article is about what motivates members of the minority (in any situation) to join extremist groups or commit violent acts against others. While its couched in examples from Mustafas life, it can be read into the wider community. This is what happens when people feel powerless, particularly when they witness others around them wielding power. Nazi germany was only successful (?) because the leaders were able to play on the oppression of the people and create an "us and them" belief. Members of the KKK are sourced mostly from poor white communities. I dare say members of the IRA, particularly the violent ones were from poor communities. They search for a sense of belonging and meaning and can too often find it in extreme beliefs. Violent action gives them a portal to physically express their frustrations. Whilst I dont condone this, I can recognise the driving factors and have some degree of empathy. Ultimately these people often have little sense of self-worth. On a micro level you can see it in everyday life. Those that lash out at others (whether it be physically or via vicious gossip) ultimately have little self esteem. Maybe this is why as a nation we are urged to be tolerant - to recognise that why these people should be held responsible for their actions, ultimately they are a slave to their lack of belief in themselves.

I cant verify the source, but I do believe that those that sacrifice themselves in the same of islam are promised 17 virgins. I assume that these virgins have lived and died in the belief of Islam (otherwise why would they be in paradise), so this doesnt add up to the assertion that women are less likely to enter paradise. Given these numbers it definately shows that muslim women are far more likely to enter the afterlife than muslim men. Can someone enlighten me though - what happens if muslims are denied entry to paradise? Does Islam have a Hell, or do they just cease to exist? Sorry, I am curious!
Posted by Country Gal, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 7:21:36 PM
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The authoress of this article has keen vision and has a kind sympathetic soul. I commend her.

Yet, despite her ability to perceive the toxic - her words - problem she has not been able to form an insight into the matter or identify the greater problem. Something akin to seeing the trees, but not the forest.

She correctly identifies aberrant behaviour of a young man in her life, but has not, probably only due to a lack of life experience, identified the the malaise which afflicts a broad spectrum of a significant number of boys, becoming men, across the socio-ethnic spectrum outside of Islamism.

The problem is EXACTLY the same for Muslims as it is with other boys in Australia. Young men/boys disenfranchised from society, being told constantly that they are and have been the cause of all misery in the world, lose confidence and disengage from society and may become feral.

Who can blame them?

I certainly don't. And I understand their loneliness and angst. I certainly don't blame them for becoming "toxic". In fact I consciously attempt in my writing to put across this exact condition to catch the eye and attention of the mediocrity.

I'll finish simply by saying this, those who treat young men with disrespect and attempt to disenfranchise them from social integrity are lighting the wick of an enormous disaster, which can only end in shocking tragedy. Don't underestimate the force of a young buck.

Young men of the world MUST be engaged in it or they'll rise to conquer it with as much mercy and care as Genghis Kahn. Do not treat young men lightly. They are a fearsome and dreadful force to reckon with if their energies are not encompassed and utilised constructively within the community.

Those who subjugate the natural creative exuberance of young men do so at their - and everybody else's - peril.
Posted by Maximus, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 7:58:02 PM
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Although I entirely disagree with the reasoning you give for such people turning against our society, your article gets down to reality way more than any other.

But it all comes back to racism, although your notion of whites that go "Asian bashing" is laughable, and a tactic I've seen used before to cover for the humiliation one feels at those of her kin treating the society which welcomed them as dirt.

If England was that sort of society, don't you think Muslims would have been run out of town generations ago? All western, particularly English speaking nations, are extremely tolerant. We don't have herd mentalities, and can't get 60 carloads of people to go on a racist bashing spree at a moment's notice.

Nice try though.

Mercurious,

Once again you can't bring yourself to condemn non-whites can you? You had to "enlighten everyone to the fact that some white people have done some pretty horrible things to, like the Columbine School killers.

You need to work through this, people can criticise someone of another culture without having racist motives. You need to start looking at all people in the same manner, again, one isn't racist if they condemn someone of another colour.

You must be spinning out that this writer basically says everything those of us who you argue with, say.

Everyone else,

Interesting times ahead. I predict that the protest on Saturday will turn ugly (I can't believe that instead of protesting against the scum that is Sheik "racially motivated pack rapist supporter" Hilali, the Muslim community are supporting him.

Mercurious said generalisations are always wrong, although one would have to admit, the support for Hilali, when you take in the notion of 5000 at the hate sermon, how none condemned him at the mosque this week, on Arab radio, means that one could safely say about 80-90% of the Muslim community agree with him.

What great times we are in for. You leftists behind multiculturalism are responsible for letting in almost an entire culture of rednecks!
Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:06:32 PM
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The religion of peace?
It seems that Muslims don't only commit rape against white people, they also commit murder. Had to be three of them against a defenceless 15 year old boy, though:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5409734.stm
Posted by Froggie, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:36:57 PM
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Carnifex,

SPOT ON!

Indian males and Muslim Pakistani males look identical right? Yes, since they are the same people.

Why then in England is the unemployment rate of Indians as low as everyone else, but for Muslims it's disgustingly, horrifyingly, outrageously, high?

Why?

Because they are taught from day one to think we are inferior scum, we see in their mosques where their Imam's preach racism to them (but their parents do just as much) about whites, about women.

They do this, just as Muslims do out here, because they have a paradox, THEY ARE SUPERIOR yet they have to live in a western nation because they're culture and religion leads to intolerance, murder, mayhem.

So they have to hate us, just like an old homeless drunk hates guys who walk past in suits because they're rich and he's poor.

They blame the west for everything, the fact that there are dictators, even though they have never known anything else.

If it wasn't for the oil they would be another Africa.

I can't wait until it runs out, so Islam joins all other failed totalitarian ideologies on the scrapheap.

Islam gives excuse for hate and racism such cultures naturally feel towards outsiders. It is the only religion that gives into man's passions:

One is allowed endless women (four wives and endless temporary marriages - i.e, prostitutes)

One is allowed to lie to, cheat, and kill the infidel, Islam gives into man's lust for blood.

I remember a Muslim on TV (who had to hide his identity of course) citing Mohammed's life and actions and then asking the host what would one expect of such a man's followers.

One thing for those of you ignorant about Islam, is to consider Jesus & Mohammed on their death beds.

Christ forgave those who killed him, an act of peace, while Mohammed ordered the ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims, i.e, pagan Arabs, Christians, and Jews, from the Arabian Peninsula.

This is why only Islam is permissable in Saudi Arabia, they are following his order.
Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:42:40 PM
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Lovely article, thanks Shakira. It's also good to see some civil and intelligent debate about it too, mostly.

On that subject,

Boaz: "So, we have this very predictable cycle wherever Muslim communities exist.
1/ Government makes decisions to assist in community integration.
2/ Radical Muslims take this as a 'threat to Islam' and threaten to kill them."

Evidence, please?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:48:26 PM
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Yes Benjamin,if they turn out in force without any counter protests from the moderates,we will know the truth.

Australia is a big continent,and we can readily give them their own piece of turf without the social security benefits.Groote Island comes to mind,just off Darwin.Just living off the land,unable to steal or sell drugs to the abandoned meat of unclad skippy whores,would be an edifying religious experience.

There is no doubt that we are not hearing from many of the moderates who are just plainly too scared,however now is the moment of truth.If this impasse remains unresolved,we can create a separate state for those who seek our destruction.Better sooner ,than later.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:06:35 PM
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As a moderate non-Muslim, I have to say that I'm pretty disgusted by the last couple of posts.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:28:34 PM
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Shakira

Wow! This blew me away. So fresh, so matter-of-fact, so eloquent, and sooo unsentimental. It is a rare person these days who can admit to "hate" without any hangups. You Go Girl! Poor Mustafa I say. BUT I am glad you arranged for him to be denied entry here. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Let the poms sort their own mess out.

Did y'all see Martin Amis on Lateline tonight? I have argued for years now that the path to understanding the horror of the Islamist male is through Freud and not through Muhammad or OBL.

Think about it. They are psychosexual loons, who we need to lock out of our societies. Don't worry they'll eventually turn on each other and blow each other to smithereens. Just look at the Palestinians and Iraq. Those who live by the sword...

Poor dears
Posted by Neocommie, Thursday, 2 November 2006 1:19:08 AM
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You must take responsibility for your actions. The culture of Islam as described by the established Islamic nations is one that awaits the will of Allah. Rarely will you get a Muslim to admit that slavery is still the basis of labour in the Islamic states. The labour pool is filled by poorly paid, poorly treated migrants from different countries. They can never be true citizens, and while there are exceptions, the treatment doesn't improve. Of all the calls from Arabs to the west to support a Palestinian state with the promise of peace across the land, no one human being is treated with more contempt than a Palestinian in a Arab State. I personally know a Doctor who fled with his family to Saudi Arabia and the best job he was "allowed" was as a janitor.
Muslims in democratic countries have to work to make money and to feed their families. These people don't come from a culture that respects getting ones hands dirty. They are not a culture that rolls up their sleeves and digs in and gets the job done. This is not a racist comment. It is the nature. It's a put down to their sensibilities and makes them feel less of a man. Many quote how dominate males are in Muslim society and that's true over women but, men have many social striations not easily recognized by the outsider. Until the Muslim male can achieve "boss" status over other Muslim and especially white men he will never feel success as a Muslim man in his society. The every day fellow who comes home at the end of the day absolutely stunned and filthy from head to toe and can wear a smile is his enemy.
It's the difference between a fox and a shark. Some similarities but very different and you don't have to hate one or the other to signify the differences. Here you have to stand on your own two feet. It's part of being free. Freedom is very knew concept to a people who have submitted in every sense of the word.
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 2 November 2006 1:44:33 AM
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Arjay,
do you lack all sensibility? there are fine people living on Groote Island, it is no more a terra nullius than mainland Australia was.
As for multiculturalism, of course it fails, because all cultures are derived from religion, and all religions are inherently repressive -- christianity no less than any other.
Only pluralism -- respect for individuals, not groups -- can offer a peaceful and sane society.
get religion our of schools, and out of society, religion should only be practised by consenting adults in private!
Posted by ybgirp, Thursday, 2 November 2006 9:01:22 AM
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Reading through the posts reminded me just how effective story telling is as a rhetorical tool to sway public opinion and convince ordinarily rational people to suspend their judgement.

That is not to detract from the story, however it is a reminder for us all to read then stop and think, making an effort to compare and contrast the information gained with what we already know.

From Muslim families I know in Australia it is a sad but true fact that Oz and Euro women are seen as decadent and easy game. It is a common subject of conversation but only part of an ongoing reaffirmation of beliefs and values ingrained and carried to other places.

That is why the Sheik didn't immediately upset moderates too much - they expected seniors, especially fathers to talk like that. As an 'oldie' and a father, he would go over the top, but so would a Muslim mother. Oz dads and mums say that if their daughters dress like (fill in the blank with a suburb of origin, or person) they could be molested too.

But that is not to excuse the Sheik.

It is hard to leave customs behind and in a strange land customs can easily become more rigid rather than more flexible, that is, differences are strengthened. Maybe, if there is no large grouping to continue to reaffirm the customs, they will fall away in time as elders die off.

I don't think there is a shred of evidence for the hypothesis that young men (but never young women? ;-)) 'turn' or 'go toxic' (?!) and victimise because they lack status. It would be convenient to mend the gulf between feminism and multiculturalism if it were so, but no, the evidence from other migrants all around the world is that both good and bad customs can become more hardwired in and more extreme, in a land where customs are different.

By the way, much as I like to have fun with the English (and they take it good naturedly), they are not racists.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 2 November 2006 9:07:39 AM
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runner: Drrr

The point is; if people spent less time worrying about nothing (i.e. religion), they would have much more time and resources to actually solve humanity's problems - not creating them with blodd fueds about religion. QED.
Posted by Iluvatar, Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:21:11 AM
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ena wrote:

“what I love about your piece is that while he failed to see or acknowledge your different but valid humanity, you have not fallen into the same trap. You allow us to see Mustafa's confusion and turmoil and you have attempted to understand what triggers his extreme behaviours. He remains human to you in a way that you never did to him.”

Country Gal wrote:

“While it’s couched in examples from Mustafa’s life, it can be read into the wider community. This is what happens when people feel powerless, particularly when they witness others around them wielding power.”

Mecurius wrote:

“The support and understanding of the community is vital to bring alienated young men round to being productive and useful members of society.”

Logic wrote:

“Why suggest that Mustafa was a loser? We could all be losers if put in the appropriate situation.”

Fencepost wrote:

“But more broadly we all need to aim for a society where we minimise the numbers of rebels/misfits/disadvantaged people who are ripe for exploitation looking for a cause to explain their misfortune and gain an ascendancy.”

Maximus wrote:

“Young men of the world MUST be engaged in it or they'll rise to conquer it with as much mercy and care as Genghis Kahn. Do not treat young men lightly.”

Kenny wrote:

“To the Author very insightful thank you.
White Anglo Atheist male.”

Not much more I can add to the above. Thank you to all, and to the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V buttons on my computer.
Posted by Snout, Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:53:41 AM
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I like this article - while I've been accused of being an apologist for Islam, I've never denied there is a very real problem of culture clash, my argument is that it isn't necessarily the monolithic threat we are being led to believe it is.

Pretty powerful stuff here, and it goes right to the heart of the matter. Question is, what can we (sensibly) do about it?

I reckon for starters, we should look at how we deal with these ostracized people. If this article has pointed out anything, it is that people who are treated as outcasts will behave like outcasts.

Those pushing for values assimilation should p'raps think about doing it on a grassroots level. Invite em to a barbecue for christ (and allah's) sake! Put a bit of thought into what you cook, and she'll be right.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 2 November 2006 1:17:49 PM
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There is more than a little of irrational hatred here. I thought Shakira's article was moderate and thought provoking, worthy of discussion, but wow the response. Unbelievable.

And to Benjamin with his belief that multiculturism is a leftist idea. What is the alternative to a culture that was varied as soon as the First Fleet arrived?

Do you want a monoculture? That is the only logical alternative, in which case which one? Do you want aboriginal culture amongst all of us, after that was first, or Irish, or Jewish? Perhaps Chinese or Hindu or Buddist. Make up your mind.
Posted by logic, Thursday, 2 November 2006 2:07:05 PM
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Good article Shakira,

As usual, OLO posters are polarised between the reasonable majority and the deaf mosque-teers!

Logic,

Your nickname articulates your thinking. Keep it up,

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Thursday, 2 November 2006 2:48:15 PM
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If we stir the pot vigorously enough,then perhaps the the moderates will let their voices be heard.The extremists have gone to ground and have called off Saturday's show of strength in support of the vile and repulsive views of Sheik Hilali.They know that they have shown their hand too soon.It is better that they continue their undermining of our society with all the usual tactics that have worked so well in the past,ie selling drugs,theft,fraud,pack rape,skippy bashing,all whilst collecting an array of tax funded pensions.

Having said that,there are many good Muslims who are responsible ,good hard working citizens.I want to hear their voices.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 2 November 2006 6:06:16 PM
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Fellow Human,
I cannot agree with your assessment of fellow poster, Logic... the alternative to Multiculturalism is NOT monoculturalism [repression of the individual by the group] it is PLURALISM... in which the individual is paramount. The repression of individual differences at the whim of the group, IS THE PRIME CAUSE OF ALIENATION... which is what we are all talking and worrying about.
Posted by ybgirp, Thursday, 2 November 2006 6:26:47 PM
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Way to go, your conditioning is complete, your multicultural, no culture, a single culture, pluralist, Christians, Jews and Muslims. Any way to actually hear from an Australian or in your rush to be everything and no thing has the Australian been eliminated. First generation Muslims can't absorb freedoms and rights and a democratic ideal. Their fighting to hang onto their identity even though they know it led them to destruction. Their religious leaders do not encourage assimilation. Two, three generations from now there may be a moderating of radical Islamic thinking but, not if Muslims insist on being Muslims and not Australians, or French or British or Americans or Canadians, etc. etc..
And of course there will have to be some religious reform. There is some good in Islam but, the evil has to be purged. We shut down those rabid Christians in a hurry when they start on about their either conform or live in hell for eternity rant. So Islam isn't getting much different. Just the victim parade is out in full force. In democratic nations the individual is/are - full stop. Lobbyist weaken democratic rule by advocating the right of the victim over others.
If you can't put your country before yourself, you can best serve your country by living someplace else. Nationalism trumps multiculturalism every time.
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 2 November 2006 7:13:17 PM
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ybgirp

Well at least I have one fan in Fellow Human.

What is the subtle difference between Pluralism and Multiculturalism?

We all have a culture and they differ between different groups. I lived in England for a while and then in Switzerland. Each country had a variety of cultures. In England it was based on class and on geographical location. In Switzerland a lot depended on whether you lived in the cities or the mountains. In both countries each group had a different dialect. I resent it when one group tries to dominate the other as I perceive John Howard is trying to do.

I personally doubt that any individual can cut themselves off from their family culture.

I am open to persuasion
Posted by logic, Thursday, 2 November 2006 7:51:01 PM
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CJ Morgan (and then logic)

I'm scared by those posts too, one of which I wrote!

It sounds as though you doubt my analysis of Islam, mabye you've only heard of Karen Armstrong's version of it, where she describes none of the above realities?

Well, I offer my advice. Read the Koran for yourself, but then, read the Hadiths, which are Mohammed's teachings, that his disciples wrote down. However, there are about 12 different people who wrote such stuff down, so I advise you to only read the few that the majority of MAINSTREAM Muslims use themselves, such as Bukhari, and Muslim.

It is in these most revered, widely accepted Hadiths where you will find such teachings.

More importantly, for your own curiosity (if you doubt me) email some Muslim sites and speak to Imam's about such issues. I have some excellent emails I saved from furious Imam's (oh, you have to pretend your Muslim though as they won't even talk to filthy kaffir, i.e, westerners) where they tried to say that Mohammed's marriage to the six year old was because women in Arabia mature earlier, at six!

No joke, this is the sort of twisted attitudes many in Islam have. No wonder Khoemeini, that other revered Muslim from Iran, also had child brides.

Ever heard of condemnation of him by Muslims? Let me know when you do....mate.

LOGIC (by choosing that name you demonstrate that you perhaps have none?, just an insight)

You ask if I want monoculture? Are you serious? Mabye you shouldn't read this because it destroys your pathetic, embarressingly weak argument.

The western world is fluid, we have diversity already, EVERYWHERE, we are diversity, in a word.

Music, art, and a million sub-groups of each (i.e, various forms of music, literature, art, sport) thinkers, philosophers (some who think ridiculously dumb things but we analyse everything is my point)........
Posted by Benjamin, Friday, 3 November 2006 8:05:17 AM
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....What diversity do bringing third world cultures out on mass (thereby severly reducing their potential for integration) give us?

12 yr olds who sell smack at Cabramatta while Vietnamese adults look on without concern? The first political assassination in our history, with John Newman (hooray for Phoung Ngo, who was only following his culture's political system - murder your rivals - do you doubt this?)

Gun crime, largest Medicare fraud in our history (in 1994, one third of all health professionals in Fairfield area - their educated class!)

I haven't even begun yet with the Muslim community, surely you don't need to be told, do you?

What diversity do they have? Besides variations in Shia, Sunni? Which shoot each other at Iraqi election poll booth in Auburn 2004?

Again, middle-eastern politics there,, hooray for multiculti!

These cultures need diversity, they don't bring it to us.

You're serious aren't you?

GOod grief.

BACK TO FIRST GUY, (CJ MORGAN?)

Oh, those hadiths, which you can get online from many Muslim websites, so I'm only using their own teachings there.

You know what that means, if you think they are horrible, as you said before?

It means you have just denigrated Islam, congratulations.

Feel good about yourself?

Tell me off, all I'm doing is educating people.

I don't blame you though, for when I first heard that Mohammed was what we today would consider a paedophile, I didn't believe it.

I, like most ignorant westerners, wrongly thought Islam was JUST LIKE CHRISTIANITY.

It isn't. When you look into Mohammed and his teachings, you will come away not surprised at all that so many of his followers want to kill you.

Good day. Hope that little reality lesson didn't ruin your state of mind, but better to know the truth than where you were at before isn't it?

I remind you again that if you attack me for my comments you are only transferring your anger at Muslims (who you can't tell off because they have no agency in your eyes perhaps) to me.
Posted by Benjamin, Friday, 3 November 2006 8:13:32 AM
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Logic... A "culture" is a set of behaviour patterns that force conformity on individuals. Pluralism espouses the value of the individual.
As for christianity being better than Mohammedanism -- get real. The "West" has enjoyed only a brief respite over the last century from the horrors of Christian persecution, thanks to intelligent atheists who managed to create a few secular states. But the forces of Christian repression are on the way back and with them all the inequities they ensure. The rich are getting richer, the poor poorer. Intolerance of all diversity and all dissent is rife. No one dares say they don't believe in god. No politician who says he is an unbeliever will ever get elected to office. Every school in the country is installing religious instruction. if you think Tony Abbot and his ilk have been silenced, think again. if global warming doesnt finish us off, within ten years, abortion will be illegal, as will homosexuality, divorce, fornication, de-facto marriages....
Posted by ybgirp, Friday, 3 November 2006 12:08:48 PM
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The following events certainly cast a shadow of doubt on the sheik's belief that only wicked infidel females are raped. BTW, isnt Egypt his home country?

Mass sexual assault in downtown Cairo

http://tinyurl.com/yf3uxv

"On the first two days of Eid in Cairo, a mob of hundreds of men swept through downtown attacking and sexually assaulting random girls in an animalistic display that must boggle every mind. Apparently, the utter lack of basic decency, respect for women, or the rule of law was not confined to Ramadan alone - in fact, Ramadan was the only thing suppressing the baser instincts of these men. I feel sick at heart, and may never spend time downtown again, as it seems we women are actively in danger there. Will Cairo one day be like Mogadishu, where every woman is raped before she turns 16?"

The following quotes are from an eye witness:

"While yesterday the attacks were just random, young men now formed human trains that approached a girl quickly and surrounded her completely and began groping parts of her body."

"We were surprised to find a girl in her early twenties who had fainted on the ground, surrounded by a large number of youth who were groping parts of her body and taking off her clothes."

"The crowd did not disperse until the appearance of two girls wearing the Khaliji ebaya (loose outer garment worn by women from the Gulf) walking alone down the street. The young men surrounded them completely and a large number of them pressed against the girls and removed the veils they were wearing, and attempted to remove their ebayas, while 10 and 11 year old boys slipped inside the ebayas from beneath."

[cont.]
Posted by dee, Friday, 3 November 2006 6:11:44 PM
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[cont.] The eye witness states:

'I could not blame the young men. In my opinion, sexual repression and depression and cowardice (I do not excuse the perpetrators for what they did, I just cannot understand the motives of over a thousand people who moved as one body towards a single target, I can’t understand) led them to not even distinguish between a veiled girl and an unveiled girl, or even a munaqaba girl (face veiled). Repression and a severe sexual frenzy made them unable to make any distinctions. One of the chants that they repeated when they headed towards a prey was Yay, we get to fxck! Yay, we get to fxck! and another after they were done with a girl and headed towards another, Another one, another.'

She cannot blame them? The fact that these men, who grew up in Islamic culture and are well aware of the fate of rape victims, attacked ordinary young women like wild beasts. Why are Muslim women not protesting about this, rather than supporting the man whose hateful sermons liken them to catsmeat. Guess it was all the fault of those slutty girls for daring to be out in public.
Posted by dee, Friday, 3 November 2006 6:22:36 PM
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Christians had to become more secular to escape the yoke of priests. Takes guts and determination but Muslims have to do the same to liberate themselves.

What I really cannot understand is why so many Left leaning feminists, especially Australian feminist academics, lionize Islam. The root of the 'problem' is not 'men', it is the abuse of power by the few who profit from it. It is more about politics than religion, but then the Catholic Church was more about politics too.
Posted by Cornflower, Friday, 3 November 2006 11:52:52 PM
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Shakira Hussein,

I'd like to ask you about comments you made:

"Islam did not inspire his behaviour but his particular understanding of Islam provided him with justification."

"......young men crave status and that some young men who are denied this will turn toxic; that those of us who are Muslim and Western must build an Islam enriched by ancestral cultures but not enclosed by them..."

May you indicate whether you will respond online?
Posted by GZ Tan, Saturday, 4 November 2006 12:16:01 AM
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You can only admire the Muslim women who speak out as this author does, but one wonders how safe they are when the spotlight has been turned off. Are they ostricised and left unprotected?
As for the 'toxic' young men, they could get involved in sport,volunteer work,anything that will get them involved and away from poisonous imams who will only do them harm. Which young men in Australia are 'empowered' by what?
I always thought that protest marches needed a permit to proceed. The way the Islamics take over the streets for their protest marches makes me wonder if this is so or do they think they are above the law?
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 4 November 2006 3:22:23 PM
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I have been interested in this debate about how women seem to invite rape or other adverse sexual attention. Yet few have mentioned men - what is it with men? A woman shows flesh and their rational mind flies out the window, they can no longer tell right from wrong, they can no longer behave within the bounds of social civility. Let's face it, every cat I have known has demonstrated more restraint when faced with the uncovered food dish! I am getting fed up with men from any tradition claiming, on one hand, the authority over women as protectors and on the other, that the protection is necessary because (other) men can't restain themselves when looking at female arms of legs. Conservative Muslim men are not alone in this claim.

But is this rush to protect women from other men about sex or is it about power? Yes, Shakira's half brother tried to exercise power over her in the name of family and religion - I have known young Christian men who did the same to their sisters. It was about power, about controlling her activities. Strikes me as a protection racket - men claim they need power and authority over women because (other?) men will be unable to behave well. Does each group of men exhibit bad behaviour sometimes so that the other groups can justify the controlling behaviour? Are certain men tapped for the role of 'being dangerous'? Sounds unlikely and yet... Women have been controlled by the threat of male violence or sexual attack for centuries by men of many different faiths and cultures. How about some of you men readers sharing your tips for exercising physical restraint so women can exercise the same access to public places that the vast majority of men take for granted? White Ribbon Day is coming up - get involved men - actually take action to help all men be as restrained as you are.
Posted by peony, Monday, 6 November 2006 4:00:32 PM
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Dear Peony

Sometimes men want to protect women from other men because they know how men think :)
It might be about 'power' in some cases, but in others simple concern.
The important thing in my humble view is to send the right messages by what we wear. This applies equally to blokes and girls.

I don't think I'm alone in saying that the sight of a relatively unclad female who happens to have a nice look, indeed has an effect on a bloke.

What I'd like is that the 'effect' is to draw out a mans deeper sense of love and genuine affection, rather than shallow sexual attraction.
More cleavage or more leg or more midrif... just does not convey that message, but.. the general attitude of the girl is what completes the message, and it can often be refreshingly innocent.

The problem seems partly that some girls do indeed dress for maximum sexual attractiveness, but its aimed at 'Mr suitable' rather than all blokes. The message is clear, but if mr unsuitable reads it and makes a move, aah.. she might tell him to 'get a life you pervert' or something. He's not mis-reading, just mis-speaking :)

Restraint though, is something we all have to have. 'Messages' are NEVER 'come molest me' ..they might be "have a go, you might get lucky" but never asking for assault or rape.

The most that can be said about girls (to address the topic) being at "fault" in modesty issues, is that they if they dress sexually, they will simply bruise a lot of egos in blokes they don't find attractive.

One 'value' we could do well to re-capture is that of true beauty being the whole person, not just the fleshy lumpy curvey bits.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 6 November 2006 7:14:03 PM
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Of course men find a nubile young woman in flattering clothes sexy. Women like looking at buff male gymnasts too. It is natural.

Feminists do not flatter women by claiming they are such vulnerable hot-house plants that they have not exercised power in families, in society and in influencing (and controlling!) men. Ask any politician whose vote they worry about on 'decency' or 'moral' issues - it is the women voters who would limit behaviour more than men ever would. Likewise women carry the rump of votes that send young men to war. In the case of the Vietnam War and Iraq, women proved they will equal or outvote men to support war.

Ask other Muslim women who would be the first to chastise them for any ‘immodesty’ in the way they dress their children. The answer is the Muslim mum next door (unless she is a Turkish Muslim who are more liberated, of course).

Shakira's hypothesis is outrageously silly. Her article is about gender feminism, but that is a long shot given her brother’s conditioning. From her own account, her brother’s ‘toxicity’ had little to do with gender and much more to do with culture and psychological conditioning. it is much more likely any person (ie not necessarily male or female) would exhibit psychological damage and odd behaviour after a lifetime of being brainwashed in the home and at school.

It is not just boys who are affected by toxic conditioning in the home and Muslim mothers are as complicit in this (conditioning) as the dads. Doubtless a Muslim sister or mother could be just as likely to try to persuade/control Shakira as her brother allegedly did. So it is not being male or status that is at fault, it is something more simple and sinister – the relentless conditioning throughout childhood by mum and dad to distrust and hate people of non-Islamic background.

So to use Shakira’s words, both Muslim boys and girls can 'turn toxic' and some obviously do, but this has nothing to do with status or gender.
Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 7 November 2006 10:04:21 AM
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