"only the social values produced by certain kinds of economic production”. "

Did economic production influence social values or did social values influence economic production?

I think social values initially emerged from a collective in order to ensure survial of the group and individuals, in the hunter gather stage of human developement.

If one reads I cant remember which I think the old testament. In it was laid the foundations to ensure that the Jewish people were able to survive their trek. (example only and one that I understand)

Certain rules and laws were established to ensure survival and to remain healthy. So basically each cultural group developed certain laws and rules to ensure their best chances of survival in their given circumstances. Some of which to our modern sensibilities may seem (whatever).

Basically it has only been an extremely short time in human history where the struggle to survive at least in the first world countries has not been the top priority.

Perhaps the hunter gathers were the very first socialists because the survial of the group depended on individuals and the survial of the individual depended on the group.

Interesting Biblical reference James, however, the Marxist model can parallel beyond this,

The Marxian model can be seen as based on a mystical order of thought reminiscent of the Christian conception of the ultimate cataclysmic destruction of the historical order. In its place, the ultimate erection of a new order of perfect justice in the life of man and perfect harmony in the order of nature. Someone has apparently pointed out, the entire prophetic pattern of Marxian thought is "a secularised version of the Book of Revelation."

This religious dogmatism of the Marxian model gave rise to the totalitarian practices that shocked persons living within the semi-religious and semi secular cultural systems of the West.

Also interesting were the techniques of enforcement as strikingly similar to those employed by the authoritarian medieval church, namely, deprivation of social or professional privilege, isolation, and even execution for deviation in thought. Purges of party leaders and intelligentsia as well as the murder of those who tried to escape were all part of this attempt to enforce the "holy" model.

The militant atheism of Marx's followers was to be the major source of religious persecution in the world between 1917 and 1979. The Russian Revolution ushered in a period of repression and martyrdom almost unprecedented in its scale.
Philosopher John Gray has noted, “The mass murders of the 20th century were not perpetrated by some latter-day version of the Spanish Inquisition. They were done by atheist regimes in the service of Enlightenment ideas of progress. Stalin and Mao were not believers in original sin. Even Hitler, who despised Enlightenment values of equality and freedom, shared the Enlightenment faith that a new world could be created by human will. Each of these tyrants imagined that the human condition could be transformed through the use of science.”

Tao, Through cultural sensitivity, I recognise something from within human nature which is not “socially constructed” but something “eternal” and therefore beyond economic or scientific determinism.

JamesH,

I think you’ll find that economic production produces social values and cultural beliefs.

The first thing we must do is survive which means obtaining food, shelter etc. Our ideas are reflections and interpretations of the material world.

A simplistic little example:

Last night on SBS (I think) I watched a show called Leaving Home about a woman who had moved to Australia from Peru with her parents when she was 6. Now 30 something, she went back to Peru and lived in a little village to learn about her parent’s culture.

The people she stayed with had guinea pigs and rabbits living with them – in the kitchen! After wringing one guinea pig’s neck with her bare hands, the woman she was staying with cooked a guinea pig dish normally reserved for festivals for her guest to try. Guinea pigs appear to be special in Peru – I’m not quite sure why, they might be native, and are probably a good source of protein.

Anyhow, the woman’s host’s mother in law practiced some sort of shamanic healing. Her son (the host’s husband) was sick one day, so the mother-in-law used a guinea pig as a diagnostic tool. She rubbed the squealing guinea pig all over the sick man’s body, then killed it, gutted it, and read it’s entrails to determine that the problem was too much alcohol!

The point of this story is that these people believe in the power of guinea pigs to diagnose illness, something that you and I probably would not believe. In a country in which guinea pigs are not native, or do not exist, this belief could not have arisen. Of course, if such a belief (and guinea pigs) is introduced, and we, through experience, come to find it is true, then we might believe it. But more likely, we will believe in the diagnostic ability of medical science in preference to that of guinea pigs.

The beliefs and values were based on, and arose from, the material world.

Relda,

There I was thinking you might be interested in some sort of rational reasoned discussion, and you go and throw in “I recognise something from within human nature which is not “socially constructed” but something “eternal” and therefore beyond economic or scientific determinism”, which is nothing more than a resort to the mystical which you accuse Marxists of doing.

It is a load of absolute rubbish. You say you “recognise something from within human nature” which is “eternal” but you don’t even have the gumption to say what it is, let alone back it up with any evidence.

I will repeat what I said earlier:

It appears that you have a habit of making statements that are backed up by pretty much zilch.

"But more likely, we will believe in the diagnostic ability of medical science in preference to that of guinea pigs."

It wasn't all that long ago in our culture that is was believed that for example cholera came from the air and scientific inquiry was treated with suspiscion.

Even today when it was discovered that bacteria caused stomach ulcers, the initial findings were ridiculed.

Just imagine for one minute where we would be if for example the inquistion had continued and scientific and medical advancements where prohibited under cultural law.

"The beliefs and values were based on, and arose from, the material world."

Beliefs and values were used to explain the material world. Many of us anglo saxons have christian beliefs and values whether we actively attend church or not. Early christianity has had a strong infleunce and still does today on our cultural beliefs and values. Religion is not based on the material world.

Correct Tao,
I do place certain mysticism on the prophetic aspect within Marxism and equally acknowledge it an important aspect within the Judeo-Christian and other religious tradition. A failure to acknowledge this basic parallel presents a denial. It’s worth considering, Christianity and Marxism are united in their opposition to a "Pelagian" or "harmonistic" optimism with respect to the ‘nature’ of man. If all ideological veils are torn down and self-deception is no longer possible, truth can appear and can be acted upon. And it is revealed only in the measure in which it is acted upon. The protest of the reformers against the "self-made" gods or idols and the protest of Marx against the self-made ideas or ideologies challenge the same spiritual danger of man in his present existence: to make the truth a means of religious pride or political will-to-power.

Marxism is suspicious of religion, because of its supratemporal nature, is considered to be an ideology, i.e., a system of ideas and symbols which have no basis in reality but which are invented for the sake of making the misery of the disinherited classes more bearable to them and, consequently, for the sake of breaking their revolutionary impulse by a mystical opiate. This is the theory of religion in original, as well as in late, Marxism. Such a description does not fit prophetic religion and its fight against the demonic powers of history and of the personal life.

The regeneration of mankind is not possible through institutional and political changes alone but it also requires changes in the personal attitude of many people toward life. Injustice, pride, and will-to-power will never be eradicated from the historical scene - rampant capitalism and nationalism, particular manifestations of these ‘demonic forces’, might however be contained